Conscription in time of war is like Lockdown in a pandemic: a necessary evil if your society is going to survive.
Pretty amazing to see ukranians in occupied cities willing to protest
https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1502966766087163908?t=6Xr-TvRSOYnA5PIsPXCKCQ&s=19
Conscription in time of war is like Lockdown in a pandemic
Sorry but that’s a ridiculous analogy. In lockdown all we had to do was stay at home. In war we’d have to kill other people and perhaps sacrifice ourselves. The two don’t compare.
poopscoop
Keep defending the indefensible though as you have all through this thread.molgrips
He really isn’t doing that. You’re extrapolating incorrectly.
molgrips, I do agree with what you said in that post and emotions are understandably taut but I can't agree with the quote above.
dazh has constantly been defecting any blame for the invasion away from Russia, time and time again. Its always been NATO, the US and a fairly new ingredient in his deflections away from the above... Its now Ukrain's government to blame for the horrors we are witnessing.
He's directly said so, I quoted him.
dazh
On a point of order though there’s a huge difference between the Ukrainian govt and the people who are being slaughtered in their name.
No extrapolating here, no emotional bias. That's what he said. It's indefensible.
This is the democratically elected government of Ukraine? Elected by a majority of the population on a pro-West, anti-Russian ticket?
I'm not seeing how this is the Ukranians fault other than in a parallel universe
We had conscription in this country until relatively recently. Does that mean we are not free?
Dazh would be with the rest of us calling out the politicians who had called the invasion
Kelvin you’re misrepresenting again. Do I need to reach for the report button again?Find me one quote where I’ve supported Putin. You won’t find one.
I didn’t say you were supporting Putin.
Although whatever I type here will get deleted anyway, again, once you’ve reported me, again, as we can’t call you out when you claim we want nuclear war, that we want a preemptive nuclear strike. You can misrepresent others just fine.
Your “all the world leaders are to blame” stuff should be called out. Only one world leader is involved in attacking Ukraine now.
dazh
Kelvin you’re misrepresenting again. Do I need to reach for the report button again?Find me one quote where I’ve supported Putin. You won’t find one
Didn't you recently say how people should take the forum too seriously.
You seem to be reporting anyone that is pointing out obvious and patently true errors in your posts.
The report button isn't a lifeboat when you feel under pressure from the obvious being pointed out to you time and time again from poster after poster.
I actually admire some of your posts in other contentious topics on here. Genuinely.
On this topic however, you are patently wrong and I have no problem in saying so.
Sorry but that’s a ridiculous analogy. In lockdown all we had to do was stay at home. In war we’d have to kill other people and perhaps sacrifice ourselves. The two don’t compare.
I think they do, in both cases society/government is telling you to do something that would not normally be asked of you as an individual. The degree of sacrifice is obviously much greater with conscription/war but the principle is the same. It’s an individual vs society issue.
I presume you feel that there should not have been conscription in the UK in WW2 even if it would have meant defeat?
Stop squabbling children.
and the apparent tendency of people to create a simplistic goodies vs baddies Hollywood Cold War type story.
This absolutely. I find the tendency of westerners to characterise this war as a good vs evil battle from the comfort of our cosy living rooms extremely offensive. People are dying. Millions have seen their lives destroyed, including those in Russia who are going to be cast into poverty as a result of sanctions thanks to their deranged president. And here we are talking about goodies vs baddies! It’s pathetic quite frankly.
People are dying. Millions have seen their lives destroyed, including those in Russia who are going to be cast into poverty as a result of sanctions thanks to their deranged president.
At last we can all start to agree on something.
frankconway
Full Member
Stop squabbling children.
Sorry Frank and other posters but I'm a little fed up watching this horrendous war unfolding everyday in front of us and being told this is Ukraine's/ its governments fault.
Its wrong and it needs to be said.
dazh
thanks to their deranged president
At last.
On this topic however, you are patently wrong
No I just have a view that war is almost always the result of ruling elites who are quite happy to sacrifice the lives of normal people to further their own interests. The war in Ukraine is no different. The solution is to stop fighting and start talking. I’m not seeing much enthusiasm for that here though.
The solution is to stop fighting and start talking. I’m not seeing much enthusiasm for that here though.
The two sides are talking. In the meantime Russia is refusing a halt to hostilities.
Point to a single poster who doesn’t want the fighting to stop.
dazh has constantly been defecting any blame for the invasion away from Russia, time and time again
I'm not reading it that way. It looks to me like he's trying to unpick the reasons why Putin invaded rather than saying he's simply evil.
dazh
No I just have a view that war is almost always the result of ruling elites who are quite happy to sacrifice the lives of normal people to further their own interests. The war in Ukraine is no different. The solution is to stop fighting and start talking. I’m not seeing much enthusiasm for that here though.
We all agree that this invasion is terrible and shouldn't have begun or continue. Not one poster on here from any viewpoint has said otherwise to my knowledge.
Ukraine as a state isn’t perfect, Ukraine as a civil society isn’t perfect and there are lots of elements in it that I find distasteful.
However, in this case you have to ask if this has any bearing on the cause of this war. The excuses that Putin has made for invading Ukraine are palpably false. That is why ‘Russia’ is in the wrong in this case. Ukraine doesn’t have to be a nation of proletarian saints & Russia a state of deranged megalomaniacs for one side to be ‘right’ and the other ‘wrong’. Not absolutely, morally saintly right, but none the less to be the side we should support despite all their blemishes.
I agree though that it’s a war and propaganda is certainly flying about as it tends to do in times like these.
molgrips
I’m not reading it that way. It looks to me like he’s trying to unpick the reasons why Putin invaded rather than saying he’s simply evil.
I respect your viewpoint and agree there is more to this that Putin being simply evil.
It's more about his perceived or invented enemies he's created to satisfy whatever serial need he has to invade countries. Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine.
Whether that list increases only he knows.
No I just have a view that war is almost always the result of ruling elites who are quite happy to sacrifice the lives of normal people to further their own interests
as I alluded to above: You have an ideology with certain views of what war is. Therefore as this is a war, it’s pretty obvious you will see this conflict in a certain way. I would argue that you are choosing to view reality in such a way as to ensure it conforms to your beliefs.
The solution is to stop fighting and start talking. I’m not seeing much enthusiasm for that here though.
I posted a link to a Reuters report a couple of pages ago, that there were some positive signs from both sides out of the latest talks. I don't think there is a single person on this thread who wouldn't welcome a ceasefire and dialogue. The sub text of your post is that people on here are somehow enjoying this. Now that is offensive.
Whether that list increases only he knows.
The Finns are getting very nervous
And rightly so
Whatever NATO does or doesn't do, Putin won't stop at Ukraine
The sub text of your post is that people on here are somehow enjoying this.
I never said that either. I don’t think anyone’s enjoying it, but I see plenty of evidence that people are being sucked into the sort of propaganda which sustains and escalates war.
If you boil it down to the schoolyard you have people who take sides and hype up the differences and amplify the aggression, and you have people who stand in the middle desperately trying to tell the rest that it’s not worth it. I’m not apologising for being the latter.
BBC reports that China now involved in supplying weapons to Russia. Although arguably they were involved a month ago when Xi asked Putin if he wouldn't mind delaying his little genocide for a few days because he was enjoying the skiing.
If you boil it down to the schoolyard
Now who’s oversimplifying?
Didn’t you recently say how people should take the forum too seriously.
Very true and I still stand by it. Trouble is I’ve been labelled as a Putin apologist for voicing an anti-war viewpoint, and have been reported and banned when I tried to call out (admittedly a bit too personal which I’m not doing any more) those who in my view were getting a little over excited.
I’m sticking to the issues from now on but I’m not going to be misrepresented or bullied into keeping quiet. As I said to the mods, if this thread can’t tolerate alternative anti-war (which is where I’m coming from) views it should be deleted and all discussion on Ukraine banned.
Now who’s oversimplifying?
At least it’s not making stuff up that other people didn’t say 😉
I think this sticker on the back window of the car gives an important insight into Russian nationalism.
https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1503077176190644225
for voicing an anti-war viewpoint
Perhaps everyone else here wants the war to stop, and never wanted it to start, and doesn’t want it to escalate. If you keep that in mind when you post, rather than talking about people in this thread (even if generally rather than naming them) as if they are pro-war, you’ll find a lot of agreement.
I see plenty of evidence that people are being sucked into the sort of propaganda which sustains and escalates war.
Pretty sure Putin is not being whipped into a murderous fury because of what he's reading on this thread.
Sorry if this war doesn't fit with your Citizen Smith world view, but twisting facts won't make it fit either.
dazh
I’m sticking to the issues from now on but I’m not going to be misrepresented or bullied into keeping quiet.
Ok, no hidden agenda in anything I'm saying here.
I totally agree, you've said nothing that warrants hitting the report button in our exchanges tonight. Not even close.
dazh
As I said to the mods, if this thread can’t tolerate alternative anti-war (which is where I’m coming from) views it should be deleted
There is only one point we disagree on in this thread and we've discussed that at large. Other than that we agree on pretty much everything from what I've seen in your posts. That's what I want to reinforce here.
My thinking:
War is utterly futile and ultimately both sides are diminished by it. The after shocks can lead to conflicts that can go on for decades or even centuries. Utterly futile.
War is instigated by the powerful but the cheque is always picked up by the little people that are pawns in their "games". The powerful rarely feel the impact or the tragedy.
All efforts should be made to resolve the conflict in ukraine. I wake every day hoping that I read of progress in the talks between Ukraine and Russia.
I don't doubt for a second you anti war credentials and I completely agree with them.
Pretty sure Putin is not being whipped into a murderous fury because of what he’s reading on this thread.
Of course not, but war has a way of polarising opinion and encouraging the darker side of human nature. It’s very easy to get sucked in to the adversarial nature of it and it poisons everything else. This thread is a good example IMO.
^^^^ All that that Poop said.
War is utterly futile and ultimately both sides are diminished by it. The after shocks can lead to conflicts that can go on for decades or even centuries. Utterly futile.
War is instigated by the powerful but the cheque is always picked up by the little people that are pawns in their “games”. The powerful rarely feel the impact or the tragedy.
Totally agree. This is the singular point where I’m coming from.
BBC reports that China now involved in supplying weapons to Russia
Link? All I can find anywhere is that Russia asked for them.
Incidentally I just watched the Winter On Fire doc on Netflix. As Kelvin (I think) rightly said in an earlier post I’d normally be the first to defend revolutionary action, and I still do as long as it’s largely peaceful.
I need to watch again and do some more reading but my first reaction is that like many revolutions they get co-opted by powerful interests which dilute or replace what the people who were rising up actually wanted (eg Egypt and the Arab spring). The 2014 revolution doesn’t seem to be any different in that regard. The main difference is they were rising up against a military super power with a megalomaniac leader with wafer thin support from the west.
Probably not a popular opinion but the more I see and read about Ukraine the more I think the west has completely misled them and sold them out.
Is the problem that the “west” hasn’t supported them enough? Or shouldn’t have supported them at all? Probably too glib a question actually, sorry. Doing more or doing less would still have left Ukraine in an awful position.
bikesandboots
Full MemberBBC reports that China now involved in supplying weapons to Russia
Yeah, that's a big potential development of true. The Americans seem to still be sharing intelligence openly as they have done through this.
Link? All I can find anywhere is that Russia asked for them.
China thus far has said nothing or "I have not heard of that" depending upon the source.
It puts China in a bind as they are publicly staying neutral whilst supporting Russia domestically via social media and statements.
They are walking a tightrope and its fair to say that Putin either intentionally or in error misrepresented the complexity of the invasion to them.
It'll be interesting to see what they do.
It's also interesting in regard to Russia if they did indeed ask. It again hints at a military simply not prepared for such a campaign and hence the draconian use of artillery and rockets etc.
War is instigated by the powerful but the cheque is always picked up by the little people that are pawns in their “games”. The powerful rarely feel the impact or the tragedy.
There's no dispute, the question is why?
Why do the powerful feel the need to instigate wars?
Or are all wars started by powerful madmen without logical reason?
What happens if...?
China says no. Is that really Putin's last chance? Can he continue the invasion without their help? Will he have to withdraw or will he escalate to non-conventional weapons, chemical maybe? Or are the Chinese weapons just nice to have but not essential and they can carry on without? How would China 'siding' with the West be seen by Russia and by NATO?
China says yes. We appear to have Russia and China lined up against NATO and the one person who might be able to talk Putin down taking his side. We also appear to have Putin beholden to Xi.
.
.
I suspect they won't want to get involved. Let Russia and NATO argue it out amongst themselves, talk Putin down from his nuclear high horse (will he consult Xi prior to doing anything of that scale?) and then swoop in and buy all the Russian companies for peanuts as soon as the stock market reopens again.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DytBlcScGNk
Why do the powerful feel the need to instigate wars?
Or are all wars started by powerful madmen without logical reason?
This guy gives a good talk.
It's one long monologue to camera but he is surprisingly entertaining. He's an archaeologist but also studies behavioural evolution. This video is about war and human nature and some theories about why we might do it
My guess at what is happening here is that the US is trying to pre-empt this. This has been a constant pattern - they would release intelligence reports to the media about Russian invasion plans, false-flag attacks, etc. in order to disrupt those plans. The message it sends to Russia and China is that the US knows what is happening and isn't going to sit back and pretend that it isn't, and that China might be sanctioned if it doesn't back off support. It gives China the opportunity to back out of it and claim that it was just US intelligence agencies making false accusations.
The development comes as White House national security adviser Jake Sullivan plans to travel to Rome on Monday to meet with his Chinese counterpart, Yang Jiechi.
“We are communicating directly, privately to Beijing, that there will absolutely be consequences for large-scale sanctions, evasion efforts or support to Russia to backfill them,” Sullivan told CNN.
A spokesman for the Chinese Embassy in Washington, Liu Pengyu, said he was not aware of any such request for assistance. “I’ve never heard of that,” he said in an email to The Washington Post.
https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1503097129526509570
This is why Ukrainians believe that fighting is preferable to surrender.
https://twitter.com/IKoshiw/status/1503049053210300417
