It surprises me sometimes what semi skilled workers can expect to be paid.
Case in point - where I work we pay a day rate of £150 for a mountain leader on a freelance contract, plus another £30 if they are overnight in the mountains with the group. That involves having some not so easy to get qualifications and a shit ton of responsibility and judgment calls and out in all weathers. In the same geographical area you'd need to pay £30ph for an interior painter. This is not for some master craftsman but a jobbing painter of essentially DIY competency turning up without their own brushes or equipment. The mountain leaders always turn up on time, are always professional and cheery with the kids. Your painter appears to believe they are doing you a favour and going above and beyond if they turn up on the prearranged day and actually do the work expected for the hours you are paying them for.
I’ve worked through an agency for a period. For that time, I got less money then I would if I’d gone out and found my own work. That’s how it is sometimes
Is this not exactly what is happening to you now? Workers being paid the minimum by an agency are looking for work elsewhere... so they're not committed to the work they're doing for you, and they're gone as soon as they've found their own work.
Fulfilling supermarket delivery orders is where it’s at these days I believe.
It’s a shame it’s solar and not windmills, with the “Don Quixote battles his fantasy labour market” style to this.
Would providing free (minibus) transport from a central point or two be helpful?
But they have made it less productive, haven’t they.
Yup, it's inevitable that if you remove a sizeable chunk of the workforce which are very productive (EU workers), then overrall productivity will go down. Clearly the idiots who gave us brexit are of the view that the magical market will rectify this all on its own but those of us not in fantasyland know that won't happen. In fact now we have the worst of all worlds (from an economic perspective) in that we have a less productive workforce wanting higher wages. Having said that though, from the perspective of the ****less agency worker who can demand more money brexit may well be working just fine.
Now what…?
Pile money into training and education, subsidise businesses to take on apprentices and skilled workers, have an industrial strategy which targets specific sectors and provides investment where its needed. That's all fantasyland with a tory govt.
Interesting thread - couple of random thoughts -
1. I agree the agency workers are not getting paid enough
2. You absolutely should know the margin the agency are working to. If you don't whoever is managing the contract should
3. Up your rates and / or reduce the margin. The agency should have some SLA's with you and clearly they are failing
(I worked as a recruitment consultant for about 3 months after leaving uni....)
Its interesting, as in my industry, IT contractors are paid double, sometimes triple perm employees, and have the ability to offset costs, travel etc... against tax. Its justified because they don't have paid leave / sick / pension / job security etc... Compare that to temp work in construction.
I've had a few tentative chats about new roles in my industry, and frankly the person specifications are ridiculous - one role had been open for a year. Turning water to wine would have been easier. And the salary was 'market rate'. Rather than adapt what I've seen is employers seem to be OK not adapting and just complaining they can#t get the staff. I suspose it probably suits the middle manager - they can't be held to account for delivering outcomes if 'external market pressures' mean they can't recruit
I also don't think this is *just* a young person thing, but they are disproportionately hit
EDIT - re IT contractors, often, not always, the expectations of them is lower than a perm, and they have to deal with less corporate shit and politics.
Some that say they are coming just don’t turn up, some are gone in half a day. That’s nothing to do with who is getting paid what, they just don’t want to do the work that’s there.
You and the agency can bin them off at the drop of a hat with no repercussions, so why expect loyalty, expect them to work for the highest bidder at any given moment, if they get a better offer they're gone, and if they're getting at or below minimum wage in poor conditions then just about anything will be a better offer.
Productivity is more to do with skills, training and capital investment. Brexit has reduced all of these in the UK... while also diverting investment into coping with Brexit (to minimise the drop in productivity caused by the additional red tape we were supposed to be getting rid off... investing to avoid sinking, rather than move forward).
Anyway... agency low paid workers need to get out of their stop gap work, and into something were they can improve their own skills in a recognised way if they want to avoid poverty and pay their way in a more costly environment. They owe the agency and their client nothing, they need to look after themselves.
Case in point – where I work we pay a day rate of £150 for a mountain leader on a freelance contract, plus another £30 if they are overnight in the mountains with the group.
Wow! It's almost like being a mountain leader is a more desirable job than painting someone's house for them.
Crazy!
Rather than adapt what I’ve seen is employers seem to be OK not adapting and just complaining they can#t get the staff.
This. I always have a good laugh when rightwingers bang on about lazy workers wanting handouts when in reality the people who are most likely to hold their hands out are business leaders who don't want to pay whatever the market rate is because it will impact their shareholders dividends and their own remuneration.
He used the wrong case in his SI units (you all knew what he meant btw), so what. The forum is hardly a technical arena. Calm down.
The other problem is likely that short term temp agencies are always going to have high churn rates because cost of living is high and people need job security.
And the salary was ‘market rate’.
This is just like the 'do not discuss money' on site. It is a shysters way out, a way of disempowering the worker and plays a huge role in salary discrimination.
Put. The. Salary. On. The. Advert.
This is like a Daily Mash headline "Employer thinks staff are lazy for leaving work but doesn't think to find out how much they are paid"
Wow! It’s almost like being a mountain leader is a more desirable job than painting someone’s house for them.
Crazy!
To you (and me) maybe.
Knock on a thousand random doors and ask which they'd go for and then come back and make that comment.
I would be interested to know how many apprentices are directly employed by all these employers complaining about lack of good staff.
No one is going to take on debt to train up for you in this climate. Train them yourselves and be certain that they have had the training necessary for your needs. The days of going to the shelf for a new LGV driver, fitter or electrician are past. Get on and spend some money, no one running a business is entitled to a free ride, no one.
I am often staggered by the number of people who seem to think good, skilled people grow on trees and almost refuse to recognise the benefits to an organisation of taking on people with potential but lacking skills/Qual's to train and mould into the workers they want.
maybe not every role is filled by pay rolled staff, but if you want a consistent workforce it makes sense to build it for yourself and only use agencies where you need genuinely non-skilled labourers or very niche skills for short periods.
Money is explicitly not to be discussed on site as it causes issues.
Then they go to the Pub after, or the Agency let something slip, or they simply ignore your ridiculous "explicit" instructions. Honestly whatever rules you put in place Remuneration will be discussed in some way or shape. They probably take you're rule as an indication that there's something to be curious about there, a bit of the old Streisand effect drawing attention to wages.
Question for the OP, do the Agencies get/share feedback from the walk-offs/one dayers? If you want to understand why people don't want to work for you past their first shift, you could just ask them...
They can get min wage working as junior doctors, why wouldn't they want to work in the cold and rain for the same money?
FTFY
No one is going to take on debt to train up for you in this climate.
We pay for 3 years of professional training, with additional pay increments as our technicians move towards becoming full registered professionals, with no clawback (unlike a lot of companies in our field) we work on the theory, more skilled people in our industry helps us all and if you treat people well and have good pay and conditions you get great staff retention.
Knock on a thousand random doors and ask which they’d go for and then come back and make that comment.
Fair enough, if you went and asked people if they want to be mountain leaders.
However, if you knocked on people's doors and asked, 'Hey, would you rather be a *insert job related to the person's favourite hobby here* or paint people's houses?', exactly how many do you reckon are going to jump at the chance to paint strangers' houses?
In a perfect economy people would be able to follow their passions without having to worry if doing so is going to lead to destitution. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect economy so the only people who can pursue jobs related to their passions are those who, for whatever reason, don't fear destitution.
Therefore, painters get paid more than mountain leaders.
...plus another £30 if they are overnight in the mountains with the group...
Sorry, this is OT. Surely leaders in the mountains with a group, while not actually doing walking about, navigation training, minor first aid etc. are still working, as in being responsible for safety, welfare and such. Should they not be getting proper rates of pay for this too?
I'm sure there was a case a few years ago where care workers living with vulnerable people won fair pay rates for overnighters, and could still be classed as 'working' even though a proportion of the time they were asleep.
Getting paid for being asleep is a skill i have worked at for years
I am often staggered by the number of people who seem to think good, skilled people grow on trees and almost refuse to recognise the benefits to an organisation of taking on people with potential but lacking skills/Qual’s to train and mould into the workers they want.
We’ve wasted a lot of time and money on trainees in the last few years. Very small company, so 1 apprentice is a big deal.
Personally I got fed up trying to train lads who can’t be arsed to get up in the morning or I have to constantly tell to get off the phone, whist I’m showing them something.
Each one had a van, phone and decent pay.
It got to the point where if one lad wasn’t at the meet point exactly on time I’d leave, it’d make my day easier all round .
10mins delay in the morning heading into London can make a huge difference.
Some just aren’t cut out for site work.
Case in point – where I work we pay a day rate of £150 for a mountain leader on a freelance contract,
Just over minimum wage for a highly skilled job
plus another £30 if they are overnight in the mountains with the group.
then way below minimum wage
train lads who can’t be arsed
That’s my point. It’s usually lads isn’t it?
Just over minimum wage for a highly skilled job
Not great is it. But if you met a group at the carpark and deposited them back 8 hours later that'd be £18.75hr - 70% above living wage.
then way below minimum wage
Yep - it's rubbish....though as per previous post I'm not clear quite what constitutes working hours in that situation. But yes, pants.
train lads who can’t be arsed
That’s my point. It’s usually lads isn’t it?
To be fair one of them was 30, another was ex forces (ironically the worst time keeper).
The 20ish year old who did a year, was pretty good. He decided he wanted to do something else which is fair enough.
No women applied.
It’s almost as if something happened around 2016 to cut us off from a vast reserve of high quality workers…
Who were prepared to work for peanuts...
It’s almost as if something happened around 2016 to cut us off from a vast reserve of high quality workers…
But immigration is now much higher than it was before Brexit, it's just that more of it is from non-EU countries. Which is of course what remainers predicted. Are the current crop of immigrants simply less skilled? Or is something else going on?
Just spoke to the Mrs on this - she did a fair few years (preBrexit) in recruitment agency (Temp/Temp to Perm but Office not construction). She says you would need to specifically ask the agency for a margin conversation and it's not as simple as You pay X, they pay Y and X-Y= Profit.
There is national insurance, "holiday pay", overheads, wages etc etc.
And keep in mind they are providing you with a service (phone/in person interviews, right to work documentation, sifting out the real dross), if it was easy and cheap to take on temporary workers directly then Temp Agencies wouldn't exist. I have seen how hard they work in a high pressure sales environment and it is not a job I would want.
I used to do a lot of agency work in my misspent youth .. Mostly forklift driving & warehouse type stuff.
If your paying the agency £19ph, the agency will be paying them minimum wage or barely over... I guarentee it.
No one is going to stick it out in a muddy field in the cold and wet for that sort of money for long.
No women applied.
This is not the fault of the women.
I know it doesn’t work like that, but I’d argue that your temp staff should be paid more than the regulars. In every other area, you pay for convenience. There’s no stability in it for them, they should be compensated for that risk
Only for the same job. It sounds like the agency staff are not doing the same job as the perm staff. The perm staff seem to:
1. Have more responsibility
2. Be working away from home (as I. Not going home at night)
Both of these things require a uplift. #2 ISA pretty big one as well.
On the other side of the argument I expect the agency is taking at least 50% of that£19 per hour as for some reason employment agencies seem to consider their own work as skilled rather than semi skilled at best.
I have seen how hard they work in a high pressure sales environment and it is not a job I would want.
That's the bit of what you typed that depresses me. Why would it/ should it be a sales environment? But it is. It should be a service first and foremost but everyone I know who works/worked in it thinks of themselves in sales. My wife spent a year in a recruitment agency in the middle of an HR/internal recruitment career. Sadly it confirmed all of her prejudices about the industry. Little care for the employers they worked for and even less for the candidates they were placing. Pile em high, sell em cheap - negotiating the margin and meeting targets being the overwhelming priority. Deliberately recommending candidate x instead of y to an employer because the current employer of x was more likely to engage them to fill the space so poaching from your own employer clients was positively encouraged. Nasty, nasty industry.
You still don’t know how much the agency staff are getting paid. You know how much you’re paying the agency, but it might well be the agency are the only ones get a good deal.
But these aren't the OP's employees, they're the agency's.
I am often staggered by the number of people who seem to think good, skilled people grow on trees and almost refuse to recognise the benefits to an organisation of taking on people with potential but lacking skills/Qual’s to train and mould into the workers they want.
My first boss took that chance on me, it paid off well for that company I worked at for 10years and set me up for life.
It's also now paid off for my right hand man sat opposite me with the stable well paid career and my passed on skills and knowledge. It will hopefully do the same for our next apprentice.
Its biggest benefit is that those skills and knowledge stay within the company long term.
She says you would need to specifically ask the agency for a margin conversation and it’s not as simple as You pay X, they pay Y and X-Y= Profit.
There is national insurance, “holiday pay”, overheads, wages etc etc.
I understand that, but the numbers don't work out. When I've done agency work, the cut they've been taking has been half or more. i.e. they charge £20 and pay £10. For as long as employment lasts. That's been over a year in some cases. I get that there's been some screening, and yes, they should charge for that, but interviews have consisted of "can you show up at 8am?" - that doesn't seem like a lot of value for money. Especially as a candidate when you can take the time to talk to them and do all their ridiculous paperwork and then never hear from them again - that doesn't seem like you've worked hard enough for me to take a massive cut of what people are willing to pay for my time.
I've even had some agencies try to beat me down after agreeing on a number to increase their cut.
No sympathy for agencies here. They're all bottom feeders as far as I'm concerned.
Just another quick one for now
I know exactly how much they are getting £16/HR for 45hrs
With breaks and early Friday finish they are working 35hrs. They aren't on minimum wage
Anyone know how much a (non approved) qualified electrician gets per hour cards in out of interest? Around £16/hr. Yes holidays, pension etc, but just for context
As an aside, as it's been mentioned a bit. 75% of the site workforce (not mine) are Eastern Europeans
You still don’t know how much the agency staff are getting paid. You know how much you’re paying the agency, but it might well be the agency are the only ones get a good deal.
This is what I figured with the dross the agency sent me - I was paying them £35p/hr but I wasn't getting anywhere near £35 quality. I found a one man band contractor/mechanical services and pay him £35 directly.
He's happy, his skill levels/attitude/work rate are exemplary.
His phone never stops ringing with work/job offers/previous work. I know I have to try and keep him as long as possible as I won't be able to get hold of him again in the future.
I do that by treating him as 'one of us' rather than just a contractor.
I know exactly how much they are getting £16/HR for 45hrs
I'm very surprised that the agency are only taking a cut of £3/hour when they'll have to be paying NI of ~£1.70/hour out of that. That doesn't match my experience at all.
They're paid £16/hr when the agency are taking £19/hr? The agency are taking £3 for themselves? If you say so, but I find it very hard to believe. When I worked agency best part of 30 years ago the agency were taking near enough £8 and I was getting £3 and a few pence out of that. Yes that was a long time ago but I can't see the agencies paying themselves less now than they did in the early 90's.
This is what I figured with the dross the agency sent me – I was paying them £35p/hr but I wasn’t getting anywhere near £35 quality. I found a one man band contractor/mechanical services and pay him £35 directly.
He’s happy, his skill levels/attitude/work rate are exemplary.
Sounds like he followed my example further back in the thread 😉
I know exactly how much they are getting £16/HR for 45hrs
So around £9 an hour less than others?
You are only paying sparks £16ph? For domestic work round my way they are £250 per day for self employed, if you can find one. At approx half of that I can't imagine you keep many sparks either!
I was paying £225 for brickies, who chose to turn up. I learnt pretty quick not to pay them weekly on a Friday, as they just buggered off on a massive bender and would show up some time tues or weds.
And, they had so much work they were turning stuff down all the time
I know exactly how much they are getting £16/HR for 45hrs
I don't know your industry but by comparison I met a lad who was manually operating some temporary traffic lights at some roadworks in town (ie his job was to stand there all day and flick a switch every couple of minutes). We got chatting whilst I was stopped there on my bike and after I remarked that it must be an extremely boring job he replied that at £32/hour he didn't care. Think you might need to pay a bit more?
We got chatting whilst I was stopped there on my bike and after I remarked that it must be an extremely boring job he replied that at £32/hour he didn’t care. Think you might need to pay a bit more?
From what I've been told, traffic management is just a huge money making operation.
3 men , 3 sets of lights and a pickup was charged out at £30K a month ( to the NHS )
It was only really needed at 2 periods of the day, 8-9am and 4-6pm, so they were just sat in the pickup between those times doing sweet FA.
