I've been looking for a mechanical bench fitter to help install £1m of pumps/piping, new shiny gear, indoors, good working conditions/hours etc.
The agency supplied people were absolutely useless, good at nattering rubbish at actually working. Found a really good guy via word of mouth. I'm paying £35 per hour direct. Previously for pipework install jobs I'd be paying semi.skilled and skilled/coded £45+ p/hr but I don't know what cut the contracting engineering company was taking.
when at various meetings there is a general theme that good people are getting harder and harder to find especially with the younger people coming up. Quite sad and worrying really.
Depends on how you look at it.
I suspect we are at a crossroads where the system we've all been living under is in the process of breaking down. It is no longer sustainable.
There are two ways it can go. On the one hand we can figure out a way of making society work for everyone and, hopefully, put an end to the plethora of bullshit jobs. And end the bullshit tasks that seem to make up the majority of jobs that aren't simply 100% bullshit.
The other option is that we regress and figure out how to force people to spend the majority of their lives living in indentured servitude.
The second option would help the OP and other current employers more, I'd agree with that. So if you are an employer it's definitely something to keep in mind at the next election.
“Why can’t I find willing workers for outdoor work in poor conditions on minimum wage via an agency contract at a time of high employment?”
I'm hearing the same thing regarding getting workers in all areas of the construction industry, particularly where we are in the South East.
I run a small construction services company and we've been fighting a losing battle for years. We're shrinking because we just can't get the staff we need. Offering £50k-60k +van, fuel card etc, for mobile installers/fitters, but getting nowhere.
We were trying to recruit school/college leaver trainees, 16-18yrs old, offering £25k apprenticeships, we got 1 applicant from the local technical college...
I would be interested to know how many apprentices are directly employed by all these employers complaining about lack of good staff.
Money is explicitly not to be discussed on site as it causes issues.
Huge red flag that is, huge. Why would it cause issues if everyone was getting paid fairly?
There are generally 3 things to think about when you're losing people. The work, the boss and the pay. You can sometimes get away with 1 of those things not being good, but if it's 2 you've got no chance. For example, if the pay is crap but it's an interesting job with a great boss people might stay. Or of the boss is a prat but it pays well and is an interesting job then again, people may well stay.
From what the OP has posted, the pay isn't good, the job is hard work and I'm not sure how good a boss he is. Basically, until things change you're stuffed.
They are likely getting under min wage after agency cut to work in the rain, under 0 degrees, with sub par safety.
Likely a long commute, long walk from parking (if they can afford a car), no showers, toilets, cafe or warm place nearby.
The market for good people decides what that is worth and it’s more than you are paying. It’s very likely it’s not just cash you’re falling short on. Maybe in summer you can get away with it.
I’m experiencing the exact same lacklustre and finding it very difficult to recruit the right calibre of employee. We’ve premises in the north west and and the south east and find the lack of skills from people in the 20’s is extraordinary.
No one is going to take on debt to train up for you in this climate. Train them yourselves and be certain that they have had the training necessary for your needs. The days of going to the shelf for a new LGV driver, fitter or electrician are past. Get on and spend some money, no one running a business is entitled to a free ride, no one.
I don't think this is all on OP.
There is a change in the workforce - expectations, skills, attitudes, numbers of people looking etc. We have found it in our sector. The solution is not just wages - we are amongst the highest salary in our sector and definitely highest freelance rate, and our last staff satisfaction survey saw a 99%+ satisfaction rate, and our feedback from team is amazing. Yet still we have higher than liked turnover of staff - skewed by a struggle to recruit in the first place and a high initial 'come for a few weeks and leave'. We see in recruitment a real dropping in numbers of quality candidates and a real increase in people with absolutely no relevant experience or skills applying (as we are seen as a desirable organisation and industry).
That said, we cannot change the world, we can only change what we do as a recruiter and employer. And we are putting in much effort here at present.
Agency work makes you a mercenary. Someone offers you more money you go to them on no notice to current employer as you know the agency will try it's best to shaft you. Saw it all the time when I did site work.
I would be interested to know how many apprentices are directly employed by all these employers complaining about lack of good staff.
My first apprentice is now my invaluable right hand man. Replaced him with another early 20's lad with a view to similar training to succession plan me but he wasn't of the right calibre - moved him into the general maintenance workshop instead where he's happy. Replaced him with another 19year old. This one did a few years at a shit local company so knows what bad is like, he's switched on and I think will do okay but early days yet. This is very specialised COMAH site with very few spare people in the industry - you have to train them up in-house/day release college.
We also have an apprentice sparky in the general maintenance dept who is doing well.
If you are taking on people on a self employed basis via an agency then why would you expect them to have any loyalty to the company they are working for.
That wasn't directed at anyone in this thread really. Just a general comment. Seems to be alot of expectation for people to arrive ready formed.
On the one hand we can figure out a way of making society work for everyone and, hopefully, put an end to the plethora of bullshit jobs
Agree to making society work for everyone but need to keep my bullshit job for another 10 years first please.
Sounds like due to shortages of employees you're now scraping the bottom of the barrel, whereas in the past you had a choice.
The answers the OP needs have already been given, but I thought I'd offer some perspective on what it's like to be such an agency worker. I did all sorts of jobs when I left school, all of them crap, and signed up to an agency for a while. On one job, we found out that the employer was paying over £8 an hour per person, and we were getting £3.20. Job agencies exist solely to profit from exploitation. On some of the better jobs, some of us might be asked quietly to come back and get paid directly, cash in hand, without the agency being involved. Productivity always increased in proportion to pay. Most jobs seldom lasted more than a few days, although some workers found longer term employment at some of the better employers (I think many companies just used the system as a way of screening potential employees anyway). Churn through the agency was huge; for most it was just a stepping stone to something less shit. Most of the time, we'd do the absolutely bare minimum, and slack off as much as possible. Conditions were often crap, and sometimes downright dangerous and illegal. Supervisors could be really horrible; fights were not uncommon. I lasted until the end of summer, got a couple of cushy numbers paid directly by the employer, and sacked it off at the end of the summer to go to college and subsequently university. But I'm glad of the experience; it taught me to have empathy and solidarity for and with my fellow humans.
It’s almost as if something happened around 2016 to cut us off from a vast reserve of high quality workers…
Without wanting to turn this into another brexit waste of time, that was entirely the point wasn't it? One of the central aims of brexit was to improve the wages of workers and provide more employment opportunities. In this case if agency staff are leaving because they can get higher paid work with better conditions elsewhere then you can argue that brexit is working exactly as it was intended. It's not the workforce that has changed, it's the economy and the market. If businesses don't adapt to that change then they're going to struggle, as seems the case here.
you can argue that brexit is working exactly as it was intended
Wages have lowered in real terms. So yes; Brexit has worked as intended. Intended by its architects, rather than all those who voted for it though.
Before I got my stuff together I worked as a brickie in the late 80s and it took 7 days net normal working day to pay my rent. 225 a day doesn't sound to bad in comparison.
Just to add that churn in the late 80's was just as acute - we had the term lunch workers as they were gone by lunch.
No idea where they went.
agency guys are local and don’t need digs
But they're still paying rent, right? Round here a room in a shared student house is about £600 a month or £20 a day.
At roughly £100 after accommodation costs per day Vs £225 a day, it's easy to see why one group might be feeling disillusioned.
however, I think that we can all agree that the topic title doesn't accurately reflect the actual situation.
Wages have lowered in real terms.
Have they? In this case it sounds like the employer can't recruit or retain workers because they can find better options elsewhere. Seems like he thinks that's because workers are ****less and lazy, which may be the case. Even if it is the latter, the architects of brexit would argue that this inherent unproductivity of the UK workforce is a problem that needs solving rather than brushing under the carpet by importing foreign workers. It's a complex problem though, how to balance the needs of an economy with the needs of the working population?
Even if it is the latter, the architects of brexit would argue that this inherent unproductivity of the UK workforce is a problem that needs solving rather than brushing under the carpet by importing foreign workers.
I'm fairly certain the architects of Brexit couldn't give a damn about "unproductivity" or what's best for British workers.
Without wanting to turn this into another brexit waste of time, that was entirely the point wasn’t it? One of the central aims of brexit
At the same risk this was the problem of schrodingers brexit. That was the aim of some but not others. Tim Martin for example wanted to keep free movement the same but get rid of the laws which annoyed him.
For OP: I suggest you ask that agency worker exactly how much he is taking home after the agencies cut. I suspect it might surprise you and explain the lack of enthusiasm.
Have they?
For most people, yes. Plus living costs are still rising rapidly.
In this case it sounds like the employer can’t recruit or retain workers because they can find better options elsewhere. Seems like he thinks that’s because workers are ****less and lazy, which may be the case.
This is why I offered an alternative perspective on things. Shit work, for shit money, in shit conditions is hardly incentive to bust a gut, is it? Especially if other workers are earning twice as much as you and have much better conditions. For whatever these agency workers are getting paid, they can possibly get the same elsewhere but in better conditions. If I had to work for minimum wage, I'd be looking for the easiest gig possible. Because minimum wage is the same whether you're slogging your guts out in a freezing field, or dossing around in some huge warehouse, or stacking shelves in a supermarket. What would you do?
I’m fairly certain the architects of Brexit couldn’t give a damn about “unproductivity” or what’s best for British workers.
It was pretty much the central economic claim of brexit that British workers would be better off by cutting off the supply of cheap labour from the EU (the cheaper parts, that is). Whether the people behind brexit actually care or not is something of a moot point. The debate about productivity is how to resolve it. Obviously the brexiteers think it's a case of cutting off the supply of cheap labour and letting the market do it's work. That doesn't seem to be working too well as in this case the market hasn't adapted to the new reality and is still wanting to pay low wages. The other option is to pay people what they want and absorb the extra cost by either accepting lower profits or passing on the cost to the customer. Seems to me that the people running UK business want to have their cake and eat it.
They can get min wage working as junior doctors, why would they want to work in the cold and rain for the same money?
^^ Farage standing in front of a photoshopped queue of "millions Turkish people coming to the UK soon"... slagging off the RNLI for stopping people from drowning etc etc.
The motives were always clear and had nothing to do with improving workers lives or wages.
agency staff are getting £152 less agency fees so probably £122
My experience of agencies is that they'll take a *way* bigger cut than that. I'd be amazed if they were passing on more than minimum wage.
If I had to work for minimum wage, I’d be looking for the easiest gig possible. Because minimum wage is the same whether you’re slogging your guts out in a freezing field, or dossing around in some huge warehouse, or stacking shelves in a supermarket. What would you do?
I'd learn how to do the job well, then start my own company and offer my services to the OP at the rate he is paying the agency.
Only he's getting me as an enthusiastic worker at the same rate. Then after a short while , I would ask for a bit more on top, which he would be willing to pay as he knows he's getting better value for money . Maybe in the future , I would take it to the next level and grow my business and become a competitor for the OP 😉
Or maybe, I could just carry on , bumming around in a job I can't really be arsed to do on minimum wage and moan that i'm not getting paid as much as someone working in a supermarket
Yep as Dissonance said.. find out the real wage of your agency staff.
For me, you sound like you want to pay a fair day rate but you don't have any clue how much the agency are paying your workers. I think you should know that detail.
I know it doesn't work like that, but I'd argue that your temp staff should be paid more than the regulars. In every other area, you pay for convenience. There's no stability in it for them, they should be compensated for that risk.
Actually though, it does work like that. I'd expect to be paid more as a contractor than as a permanent employee. Why doesn't it work that way for agency staff?
I’d learn how to do the job well, then start my own company and offer my services to the OP at the rate he is paying the agency. Only he’s getting me as an enthusiastic worker at the same rate. Then after a short while , I would ask for a bit more on top, which he would be willing to pay as he knows he’s getting better value for money . Maybe in the future , I would take it to the next level and grow my business and become a competitor for the OP
I think you should show us all just how easy that is. Because obviously it's dead easy, right?
surely you should be working to NAECI (blue book) rates, which sets comprehensive terms and conditions of employment for hourly-paid engineering construction workers on major and basic engineering construction projects, repair and maintenance sites and events / outages throughout the UK.
past couple of years 22/23 its been 2.5% pay and rates increase, I believe the recommendation is over 10% for 2024 to reflect the increase in cost of living for workers.
from the rates discussed here, there would appear to be a large discrepancy. We don't struggle to find good people and retain them, in our sister company that are specialist engineering and construction with everything from labourers to coded welders, confined space specialists etc..
Only he’s getting me as an enthusiastic worker at the same rate.
In capitalist terms, that person is a loser.
The employer's motivation is to pay as little as possible while extracting as much work as possible.
The worker's motivation is to be paid as much as possible for as little work as possible.
They're both doing the same thing.
They're trying to negotiate the best deal for themselves in a contract.
And workers should be praised for doing so effectively.
If you think that working enthusiastically in crap jobs is a route to success then...I disagree.
Life is not a Nike advert.
Lots to reply to, but driving to another job, so I'll just do a bit for now
These are intelligent adults, right?
You'd think, sadly they often behave like children
The key factors that keep getting mentioned are a wage gap and not discussing wages
First scenario
Me to agency - how much for sem skilled labourers?
Agency - £xxx
Me - hold on a minute, send me a load of unproven guys, but instead of the rate you've told me, I'm going to give you potentially £3-4k a week extra for the next ten weeks
I'm not sure in what fantasy world you expect that to happen
Secondly, how is it going to do down with the lads staying away all week, having to do the thinking and driving the job out on site, then answering the questions if something's not done right - when some agency labourers turn up (don't be misled by semi skilled - sometimes this just means they can tie their own shoelaces) and just follow a lead, getting paid the same money? The more useful section of the workforce that I've employed regularly (don't know why they keep coming back, as I'm obviously an arsehole to work for) will revolt and I know that for a fact.
So that leads on to the other matter of discussing wages. It causes unrest and consumes the workforce.
One regular lad (they started with an agency btw) is doing much more of the organising on site off his own back, so he's going to be rewarded for it. If he then goes bragging about it, more unrest.
I've had a site years ago where I used two different agencies. They were paying different rates to the lads. It caused chaos in sure the first couple of days. That one got sorted though and I leveled the agencies up.
As for the initial point. Some that say they are coming just don't turn up, some are gone in half a day. That's nothing to do with who is getting paid what, they just don't want to do the work that's there.
I've worked through an agency for a period. For that time, I got less money then I would if I'd gone out and found my own work. That's how it is sometimes
Oh by the way, the agency lads get paid a full day Friday when we finish at lunch and the other guys have to sit on the A1 for 4 hours. As I've already mentioned the hour and a half taken in breaks each day doesn't get deducted either, when it could by rights
I do plenty to look after the workforce that isn't needed and goes a long way to keeping them happy and I get thanked for it
So what you're saying is, you're doing everything as well as you can and don't really need any advice?
All the fault lies entirely with the younger generation and you simply need them to buck up their ideas?
You still don’t know how much the agency staff are getting paid. You know how much you’re paying the agency, but it might well be the agency are the only ones get a good deal.
I'd be very surprised if the agency are paying them anything other than statutory minimum, and quite possibly making deductions for 'services' provided by the agency too, I've been on the recieving end myself many years ago.
Add to the fact it's hard graft in the middle of a field in winter in the middle of nowhere, or you could put beans on shelves in a warm supermarket for the same/more money.
As for the initial point. Some that say they are coming just don’t turn up... That’s nothing to do with who is getting paid what, they just don’t want to do the work that’s there.
That kind of is about how much they're being paid. If it was £1k/hour, I'm pretty sure they'd make damned sure they turned up.
On the face of it, it would seem like the amount they're being offered, they're happy to walk away from. Probably they've got a better offer in the meantime.
