he replied that at £32/hour he didn’t care
I think it would be better if we talked in a unit of measurement that gave more reality to how badly or stupidly well paid people are paid. Could work for road workers right up to footballers and CEOs.
"I flick this switch on the traffic lights - It's boring but I'm on 2 nurses an hour"
"Tough old training session working on my headers, then a massage and an autograph session signing my 'autobiography' I got a bit of a sweat on but I'm on 1200 nurses"
"I switched some money about and talked some bollox with a client and had lunch with my old school mucka Blowers. Tough stuff eh, for only 500 nurses"
or
"I got up at 11 and watched homes under the hammer. Not a great life on benefits but I'm on 1/3 of a nurse for doing jack so not all bad"
or even
"yeah I mostly tell people to turn it off and on again. Boring as hell but I'm on 2 nurses and mostly surf STW".
Pile em high, sell em cheap – negotiating the margin and meeting targets being the overwhelming priority.
Depends somewhat on the agency and their prospective clients and candidates, but yes margins are important and targets are omnipresent like most businesses.
Deliberately recommending candidate x instead of y to an employer because the current employer of x was more likely to engage them to fill the space so poaching from your own employer clients was positively encouraged.
Any recruitment consultant worth their salt would put both forward for interview if both x and y are happy to do so.
When I’ve done agency work, the cut they’ve been taking has been half or more. i.e. they charge £20 and pay £10. For as long as employment lasts. That’s been over a year in some cases. I get that there’s been some screening, and yes, they should charge for that, but interviews have consisted of “can you show up at 8am?” – that doesn’t seem like a lot of value for money.
The value is for the employer, you are a Temp, they retain a level flexibility that they do not have if thy took you on Perm. If they wanted to make you perm they would have arranged a Temp to Perm (generally involves a fee).
The value is for the employer, you are a Temp, they retain a level flexibility that they do not have if thy took you on Perm. If they wanted to make you perm they would have arranged a Temp to Perm (generally involves a fee).
Yeah. I get that. But trying to claim they add value by a rigourous screening and interview process such that they warrant garnishing 100% of the end salary is a stretch.
As someone who's a freelancer/temp its worth mentioning that in the present economic climate you get treated like absolute shit by a lot of employers.
As an example, I had a job starting next Monday for the next few weeks thats been booked in for a while. I just got an email this afternoon saying they now don't need me any more so its all off. No explanation, just one sentence. It might as well have been two words, the second being 'off'.
This is absolutely standard nowadays. I'm already half-waiting for the email I'll inevitably get on Tuesday morning saying 'actually, we do need you after all. Can you come in now'
Erm... no
So when you're treated like this by a lot of employers, its hardly shocking that there's no loyalty. What do they expect? It needs to be earned, yet it appears to be somehow expected in the one-way street of modern temporary employment
Yeah. I get that. But trying to claim they add value by a rigourous screening and interview process such that they warrant garnishing 100% of the end salary is a stretch.
They are still processing your timesheet, paying your Tax, NI, paying you, etc it's not just the interview and placement process, and you could have left at any time for perm job/another temp job paying slightly more...but I think you knew that.
Basically your staff will be finding work which pays comparatively similar wages but better working conditions elsewhere. Working outside at the moment has not been particularly appealing, I've struggled to the point that I'm now considering more office based roles.
As an example, I had a job starting next Monday for the next few weeks thats been booked in for a while. I just got an email this afternoon saying they now don’t need me any more so its all off. No explanation, just one sentence. It might as well have been two words, the second being ‘off’.
We pay, and expect our freelancers to demand, a minimum 10% booking fee or if cancelled within 20 days of delivery they get 50%, if cancelled within 7 days they get 100%.
Our customers of course are on the same contract.
Sorry, this is OT. Surely leaders in the mountains with a group, while not actually doing walking about, navigation training, minor first aid etc. are still working, as in being responsible for safety, welfare and such. Should they not be getting proper rates of pay for this too?
Apparently it's a desirable job we should do for love.
And welcome to the world of outdoor adventure industry.
Workers will always talk about what they’re getting paid.
Oh yes, I was on a big project in 2022, 6 of us had been there for 6 months +, doing an excellent job, then the Management employed 5 more agency staff to get one wing finished early, with around 3 months left for the site. We found out they were on £4/hr more than us (£200/wk), and were, basically, rubbish, and kept making mistakes, which the long term workers had to fix, while the new workers went on to mess up another wing. We got together, told the boss that we were finishing if we didnt get the same money, he folded, and paid us within a hour.
As it happens, it left a bad taste for all of us, I was the only one of the originals working there 6 weeks later, as we just couldnt trust the Boss. All but one of the Agency Staff also left, they had no commitment, so a job with a longer lifespan appealed more to them. The Boss was desperate for Staff, but couldnt get anyone for the final 2 weeks of the Contract, so we got a lot of overtime at 1.5 times pay, as we wouldnt work for any less.
I've worked as a ropetech for quite a while. Mainly as a subby then supervising subbies. Many times being a subby supervising other subbies.
Many of my colleagues were atrocious, complete oxygen theives, Worse than a man down, you know the drill. Their work ethic was crap, standard of work even worse, always looking for every opportunity to shortcut the job to get away early, why did they remain on the job. We were required to have xxx many guys in harnesses.
matt_outandabout
Full Member
No women applied.This is not the fault of the women.
And your point is?
Apparently it’s a desirable job we should do for love.<br />And welcome to the world of outdoor adventure industry.
Many of us had passions that we thought maybe we could make a career out of. It takes a particular kind of mentality to follow through with it.
The point was that society is set up in such a way that there are only a few people who are able to make a career out of their hobbies or passions. Most simply don't have the risk taking instincts to follow through, thanks to the 'work or starve' based economy we have created.
However, even if Universal Basic Income is implemented, I reckon painters are still going to get paid more than mountain leaders. In fact, I reckon painters will end up getting even more as the competition to be a mountain leader will greatly increase once failure doesn't mean destitution, while UBI means people won't be forced to paint houses just to survive.
I'll say what I say to everyone who suggests that a profession with a relatively low barrier to entry is overpaid. If the level of sacrifice compared to the level of pay is so low then go and paint people's houses. It sounds like you'll be happier.
I know this is a middle-class safe space so the highly trained and probably highly educated enthusiastic mountain leader should be getting paid more than the untrained uneducated working class oik but sometimes the world is just deeply unfair to middle class people. Who knew?
met a lad who was manually operating some temporary traffic lights at some roadworks in town (ie his job was to stand there all day and flick a switch every couple of minutes). We got chatting whilst I was stopped there on my bike and after I remarked that it must be an extremely boring job he replied that at £32/hour he didn’t care.
Universal Basic Income would never work as people would be paid to do nothing.
Umm, wait...
There is currently a skills gap at all levels. We're running at over 10% vacancies in HE at the moment, we can't get all sorts of staff and at quality.
no idea what the agency give them
That is the problem right there
I think things are beginning to overheat in the UK Labour market. Big skills gaps that education and employers can't/won't fill. Shock-effects of recent policy decisions destabilising any progress. Public sector already at MAX. No room for fiscal tinkering. Lots of people 'in-work' are wildly un-productive. What a mess!
Many of my colleagues were atrocious, complete oxygen theives, Worse than a man down, you know the drill. Their work ethic was crap, standard of work even worse, always looking for every opportunity to shortcut the job to get away early, why did they remain on the job.
This does appear to be becoming far more common, along with people managers who can't manage.
My previous employer had a couple 'technicians', who's standard of work was abysmal, cut as many corners as they could, and that's if they turned up. Combine that with a pair of foremen who were glued to their seats in the office, and who's idea of a QC was finding a job card, then ticking the boxes to say the QC had been passed (we did laugh the day one of the tech's passed a QC, then had the vehicle quite spectacularly fail an mot), along with a manager who's spine would struggle against a wet paper bag, leads to destruction of staff moral of those who actually work.
I've always been of the attitude, that if you're being paid to do a job, you do it. If you don't want to do it, then don't expect to be paid for not doing it.
That is the problem right there
Don’t worry he suddenly knew.
So what you’re saying is, you’re doing everything as well as you can and don’t really need any advice?
I missed the bit where I asked a load of WFH IT consultants how to run a boots on the ground construction business.
Had I asked for advice it would have been pretty pointless as anything I've pointed out as reasoning as to why people are paid differently, paying actual reasonably money for hours worked (and hours not worked), rewarding decent workers etc has been ignored in favour of picking out headline points to have snippy digs. Skewed theories that the workers are 'guaranteed' getting minimum wage at best, which when I pointed out wasn't the case was treated as though I was potentially lying. Or after multiple posts stating that the mercenary agency were stealing their livings, then stating that the agency must in fact be rubbish if they are only taking £3/HR. Make your minds up.
For the record, the regular lads get £180/day when they are working for me local, so on a level playing field, I'd be paying the agency more.
Pretty much what I'd expect from a socialist audience that don't seem to like employers very much though. Pay everyone more, in fact give your labourers tradesmen's wages right from the off, doesn't matter if they are any good or not.
You are only paying sparks £16ph? For domestic work round my way they are £250
No, that's the JIB industry standard rate. I generally pay £250 upwards for sparks
and find themselves encouraged to fully commit to doing their best work?
Well, a new starter turned up stoned this morning, so probably not.
Don’t worry he suddenly knew.
That would be because sometime not long after my post where I didn't know, I had a conversation to tell the one decent guy that I'd be sorting him something extra for his graft and I asked him. He told me he'd already asked the agency to be put up to £17's. Speaking to the agency gaffer later in the day, he told me that he had put his money up. As someone pointed out earlier, the agency is their contractual employer, not me
Whatever, it seems a damn sight harder to get people to come and work than it was a few years ago. This is echoed by other contractors too.
Had a guy turn up this morning says he got laid off a job due to a H&S issue and the site getting shut, has his SMSTS and numerous plant tickets, yet he can't find work anywhere
Yes you're right, everyone else is wrong, and it's a complete mystery why you can’t get the staff you want.
Pretty much what I’d expect from a socialist audience that don’t seem to like employers very much though.
Nearly every post has been advice about the reality of the market. Nothing about socialism at all. Your temporary workers hired through an agency have to act according to the market they are in. They are not your staff.
IME from a few chats with family acquaintances some people who are 50-65 today and need staff nowadays, want to have them on the same crap terms as they were subjected to when younger.
- onus on the staff to find the employer, employer shouldn't make any effort
- no clothes or PPE provided
- no commitment to regular hours
- short notice for coming in to work
- no training provided
- shouting at staff when they do things that work but aren't the employer's preference
- shouting at staff when in a bad mood
- docking staff pay for accidental damage to equipment and fittings
- reducing hourly pay for a while, for asking if they could have a day off during a busy period
- low pay "I just want some lads who'll work for pint money"
- fend for yourself health and safety
- poor quality or unsuitable equipment, e.g. handheld jackhammer
- bring your own tools
- use your own van to get here and pop round different sites, no allowance for this
- a job that's ok for other people's kids but not their own
IME from a few chats with family acquaintances some people who are 50-65 today and need staff nowadays, want to have them on the same crap terms as they were subjected to when younger.
I don't think it's even that. I think they're just completely out of touch with how far money doesn't go now, and have an illusion of how much harder things were back in the day.
We pay, and expect our freelancers to demand, a minimum 10% booking fee or if cancelled within 20 days of delivery they get 50%, if cancelled within 7 days they get 100%.
That sounds great. Where do I sign up for that? I have never experienced anything like that in a whole life of freelancing.
I can tell you with absolute certainty that the percentage of freelance/temporary staff who have anything remotely resembling that kind of arrangement in this country will be absolutely minuscule
If you are a temporary worker of any sort
in the UK’s present gig economy, the one absolute given (other than everything @bikesandboots listed above) is that you will be relentlessly ****ed about, day in, day out by employers who will treat you as an essentially disposable resource to be abused.
They want… no EXPECT… you essentially on call, entirely at their behest, as and when they need you, 24/7, but don’t want to pay you for that.
I could list horror story after horror story of the utterly ludicrous, totally unreasonable requests I and other freelancers have had dropped on us from employers over the last few years.
Some of them you’d actually laugh at as they’re so utterly preposterous it sounds like you’re making it up. Yet some employers will demand something patently impossible while you wonder how they can keep a straight face.
I’ve actually burst out laughing in peoples faces before now, then stood incredulously as i’ve realised they’re actually serious
I hear you binners.
Part of the reason we have these rules is that I've been the freelancer before, and I've colleagues who preceeded me that put a few things in place.
When I started I tightened it up. We expect high standards - our freelancers are customer facing on our behalf. I want the best, and that costs in money and commitment to them and they to us.
We also provide training each year alongside our staff team, often online but if possible in person....but in truth I also expect they have insurance, first aid, safeguarding etc etc so they also have to keep training.
Nearly every post has been advice about the reality of the market
So basically capitalism in its purest form? But yeah “socialism” is the problem when it’s the worker exercising supply and demand.
....I asked a load of WFH IT consultants....
I don't think I've ever been so insulted ☹️
I don’t think it’s even that. I think they’re just completely out of touch with how far money doesn’t go now, and have an illusion of how much harder things were back in the day.
My dad is a bit like this.bangs on about how high his mortgage rate was.
Totally misses the fact that the cost of the house* compared to the salary was. And that the people trying to save also have rent levels which effectively prevent them building up a deposit.
*40k for 3acres one detached house one massive shed a set of outbuildings he is currently converting and a flat in newington. All in now probably close to 1.25 million when divided up.
And generally he's a pretty ranty hand ringing lefty. He certainly landlords exceptionally fairly, always allows early exit etc.
The mortgage rate was high for about 5 minutes. And yes, in that brief time it did ruin a small proportion of people. Anyone who managed to ride it out (meaning the vast majority) made a packet on the house price bubble. Which they invariably attribute to their own hard work and skill, rather than blind luck of being in the right place at the right time.
That would be because sometime not long after my post where I didn’t know, I had a conversation to tell the one decent guy that I’d be sorting him something extra for his graft and I asked him.
You discussed wages at work?
Call it what you want but if you’re not paying enough, conditions are rubbish they’ll go elsewhere as their skill set is needed. Maybe you need to stop using agencies who capitalise on workers and employ direct.
I have been reflecting on the way into work.
My last job had a real issue around our freelance staff. They were used on very busy weeks and when our team was ill. We did not pay well and could not afford to compete with others in the area.
I realised that we ran a few weeks of staff training through the off-season in the winter, one week particularly we brought in experts and ran refreshers on things, another couple of weeks we headed out as staff team to refresh and try new things.
It cost naff all to bring in a few of the freelance staff. They paid their own travel, but we gave them food and treated them like our own team. They got attendance certificates from us, which while not full NGB certificates was something they could show other employers as evidence of training and upskilling. My team benefitted from more experienced and diverse colleagues, and had to be at well prepared and at the top of their game with 'outsiders' watching. We also built really good relationships with the freelancers.
Suddenly I had no problem when I needed freelancers. Word got out that we did this and our permanent recruitment got easier - people wanted to work for us as we trained them *properly* and committed to professional development, plus they got to meet interesting people and actually progress
I also fought for funding to get my own team up the qualifications ladder - I wanted better qualified and more experienced people working for me. I left after 5 years having halved staff turnover, and some of the team I recruited were there a decade until the centre closed at the end of the pandemic.
Yes the job market is tough, but you cannot change the candidates, you can change your own organisation, you can invest in the future of the industry and your reputation. And in my experience if you do that genuinely, it pays off handsomly.
.
It's really not rocket science and applies to any job role you are trying to fill. If you offered £10,000 a day there would be a queue a mile long at your door. There's a number between what you are paying now and £10,000 where you will find the people you are looking for. It would suck if that number puts the costs beyond that which a customer would pay (this is where a lot of the service industries are heading to, restaurants / coffee shops etc), but that's how markets work.
Sure there maybe a smaller available labour pool (cos high employment) - that means you've got to prise people away from other jobs. By paying more than the next gig. Or you / your industry can invest in more training / education / marketing to try and grow that labour pool over the next 5-10 years. In the mean time, the only lever you have to pull is £.
People havent changed, they are still acting rationally in their own interests. Be that dossing around their parents house playing COD until they are 50 (blame the parents!), going on the dole (blame society!), working for the next gig for more £ (blame the competition!).
@matt_outandabout - thats good to hear. I don't doubt you're one of the good guys, but those kind of arrangements are the exception rather than the rule.
I'm relatively lucky. I'm older and established. I have regular repeat customers who I have a relationships with, built over years. I feel sorry for the younger, less established people who don't feel able to say no to ludicrous requests and appalling treatment.
Unfortunately during repeated lockdowns where Lil Rishi deemed us freelancers neither employee, nor self-employed (Schrodinger's employee?), so entitled to nothing, a lot of employers took full advantage to exploit peoples desperation. Wages were driven down - at some points to minimum wage - and demands just got frankly daft. They've never really recovered. Its now all just become normalised, hence the last-minute job cancelation like I described yesterday just becoming totally unsurprising. Its just par for the course nowadays
That backs up my experiences. I think that people work well when they feel like an important part of the team and they are worth investing in and looking after. People commit to something they feel a part of. If you give people respect and agency and autonomy, they respond, for the most part. People need money to live, but they need positive experiences and relationships to thrive. Being an agency worker denies them that, because you become nothing but a resource.
I missed the bit where I asked a load of WFH IT consultants how to run a boots on the ground construction business.
Yeah, STW is pretty heavy on IT folk.
But of course, many of us didn't start off in IT. Personally I spent 15 years working offshore in drilling. If you want to understand market forces and the evolving power dynamic between employer and employee in their purest most vicious and unforgiving form then I can't think of a better apprenticeship than that.
But yeah sure, you just carry on blaming the young people. Between the shit conditions, shit pay, and your sparkling personality it really is a mystery as to why you're having problems hiring and retaining.
Pretty much what I’d expect from a socialist audience that don’t seem to like employers very much though.
It would seem the 'socialists' on here understand capitalism more than you do. The market is the market, no price is fixed, and goods and services are worth only what the seller is prepared to accept. It's simple supply and demand, if you can't acquire what you want (in this case labour), offer to pay more, and repeat until you are successful. Then you will know what the market rate is for the thing you want to buy.
retty much what I’d expect from a socialist audience that don’t seem to like employers very much though. Pay everyone more, in fact give your labourers tradesmen’s wages right from the off, doesn’t matter if they are any good or not.
Wait until he hears about collective bargaining in other industries.
I thought capitalists wanted a market economy.
I missed the bit where I asked a load of WFH IT consultants how to run a boots on the ground construction business.
I thought it was funny how it seemed leveled as some kind of insult, but evidently a lot of people started off with crappy agency jobs and progressed to roles which have better working conditions and pay better.
Why would someone want to work outside for an agency with crap pay and crap terms and conditions when they can earn more with Lidl with decent terms and conditions?
