Currently building a 30mw solar farm in Essex. I use some sub contract, some lads I've used on jobs for years and some agency staff.
Out of around a dozen semi-skilled and skilled agency workers that have either promised to turn up and haven't, or have turned up and subsequently walked, I have one that's stuck it for three weeks so far. Some are gone by lunchtime on their first day
This isn't my first rodeo, been doing this for 8+ years on and off. 7-8 years ago, could get men no problem and they'd stick it out, would usually get a couple that were no use.
It's muddy, it's work in a field in winter, no one hides that fact from them before they come.
Talking to other people in the industry, it seems a common factor lately - either can't get the guys out they just aren't interested. Something's changed
If you have a CSCS card and aren't afraid of work, I have some available 🤣
Something’s changed
Wonder what that could be
We're at almost full employment, for those that can and want to work at least. I suspect there are easier, better paid, whatever, jobs available and while they might have taken the job at the time, if another comes up afterwards that doesn't involve being in a muddy field in winter....
Something’s changed
Theres a skills/labour shortage which means people who are available to work have plenty of choice. People are either getting a better offer, or have no concern that a better offer will be around the corner.
In the past 'sticking it out' might not have been loyalty or ethic - maybe just hunger and insecurity. In the past people might have felt lucky to get the work, now they know they are your luck.
What are you paying?
What are you paying?
I pay the agency £19/HR for semi skilled, £26 for plant operators, no idea what the agency give them
My semi skilled lads £225/day plus digs, supervisor £300-350/day dependant on the site
Building power infra? Are you competitive with the likes of HPC? If not...
That's confusing me. Assuming an 8 hr day your lads are getting £225 plus digs whilst the same grade agency staff are getting £152 less agency fees so probably £122 and no accommodation? Sound about right?
Trenchfoot?
Agency labour in construction is frankly poor at the moment and has been getting worse for years.
We get electricians on site who can't read basic drawings, have zero initiative - half the time I'd be better off getting back on the tools and doing it myself (and I haven't been on the tools for nearly 25 years!). I think a lot of them have re-trained as sparkles and have only ever done domestic work - same with Plumbers.
Although a lot of direct staff are the same, so called "Construction Manager's" and "Site/Services Coordinators" who haven't got a clue because they've never actually worked on site as an apprentice or through a trade and have just been to College.
Saying that I was sat at some temporary traffic lights the other day and they were out of sync so fairly chaotic with some near misses - said to the orange clad "operative" leaning against his van messing on his phone that it was dangerous and needed sorting - he looked up from his phone, shrugged his shoulders and and said "F all to do with me..." and went back to candy crush.....
I go back to my point in the other thread about National Service......
Employ some women then. They may work harder and be more reliable.
It sounds like your (potential) operatives feel they aren't getting enough money in their wallets after taxes & expenses etc.
Add in the rising cost of living, travel costs to the site, cost of eating out each day and a bit of beer money etc. then I'd say it's quite understandable that good reliable operatives are few & far between. Plus add an agency that skims off the top for doing very little, poor working conditions & a company that has possibly quoted the project a bit low so they win the job......
Don't forget that good reliable operatives will already be working for a company that pays better than you, appreciates their valued experienced operatives, keeps their operatives in regular work and provides a works van & fuel card. Whilst this isn't criticism of you, it might be the way the industry works and as such, the odd labour pinch point always occurs. You have my sympathies and I hope you manage to find suitable labour and complete the project on budget. Good luck.
Plenty of good, young, keen workers available. But the old, retired, national service loving buggers insist we don't need them here.
If you can't recruit, you arent paying enough.
If you can't retain, the pay isnt good enough to endure the conditions. Increasing the pay may only delay churn rather than prevent if you do nothing about the conditions side of the equation.
The mean 'attractive' pay and conditions is relative to the rest of the economy as a whole, not the historical baseline for whatever your business is. So 'whats changed' might be elsewhere.
I've seen this from both sides - i've recruited from academia, who were paid peanuts and treated like crap, given them big pay rises and way more flexibilty. I've also had big tech turn up on my doorstep and offer 2x what I could, along with all the free yoga etc.
Pretty horrible when the external salary pressure puts your costs beyond what customers will pay though!
"That’s confusing me. Assuming an 8 hr day your lads are getting £225 plus digs whilst the same grade agency staff are getting £152 less agency fees so probably £122 and no accommodation? Sound about right?*
9hr day (about 7.5-8 actually worked), no breaks deducted, agency guys are local and don't need digs/subsistence.
Money is explicitly not to be discussed on site as it causes issues. Agency dictate the rate. As it happens, the one decent lad who gets stuck in and has stayed has been told I'll be sorting him some extra out without involving the agency.
My lads know the job, have to think about where to run cables, have some sort of plan in their heads, hit targets. The agency lads are here to give a helping hand with little responsibility other than working safely.
It doesn't seem that surprising to me. You're paying your permanent staff twice what the agency workers are earning, plus accommodation / pension / bonus(?) / etc. Pay a fair wage and you'll get your workers.
Also, can't be a big farm if it's only 30mW, my calculator can generate more power than that. So there's no point complaining about your employees being sloppy if you're running the site and don't understand the units.
Money is explicitly not to be discussed on site as it causes issues.
Always a sign to me that there's something to hide, and the tip of a culture in an organisation.
Bloody immigrants going there and leaving our jobs.
Always a sign to me that there’s something to hide, and the tip of a culture in an organisation.
Yep, that's ****ing nonsense.
For clarity not you Matt talking nonsense.
TBH honest you don't sound like someone I'd want to work for.
If you have multiple workers leaving regularly that suggests it’s not the workers that’s the problem.
Can I check something, so feedback from hirers/‘employers’/‘managers’ please
If two people turned up and one was good, worked well and made few mistakes and the other was slower and made lots more mistakes what would the difference in their pay be (*honest answers please) and how would this differential be impacted over a longer timescale.
I’m asking as ime, in many, many cases the difference would be nothing, so speaking as someone who did things properly I often felt shafted for getting it right first time. (Software, I got my salary, people who did shit software got the much same salary plus overtime to fix their bugs and incurred lots of extra costs to the company in terms of support, rereleases etc etc) , so when I saw this was the case I simply moved on.
Also, can’t be a big farm if it’s only 30mW, my calculator can generate more power than that. So there’s no point complaining about your employees being sloppy if you’re running the site and don’t understand the units.
30 million watts....
400 kilometers of cable
55000 solar panels
5 inverters
117 connection boxes with 16 circuits out of each
Not the biggest by a stretch, but big enough
It's not me that doesn't understand units you condescending fool. Apologies for not using capital MW, but then you knew what I meant, didn't you?
It doesn’t seem that surprising to me. You’re paying your permanent staff twice what the agency workers are earning,
Err, no, I'm not and they aren't permanent staff
And as I've e pointed out there's a difference in the requirements
Also, can’t be a big farm if it’s only 30mW, my calculator can generate more power than that. So there’s no point complaining about your employees being sloppy if you’re running the site and don’t understand the units.
How big is your calculator? https://www.sse.com/news-and-views/2022/01/sse-acquires-its-first-30mw-solar-project-in-its-role-as-the-uk-s-clean-energy-champion/
My semi skilled lads £225/day plus digs, supervisor £300-350/day dependant on the site
Thanks, gives me some more ammunition for my up & coming salary negotiations with peeps who took over my employers.
who haven’t got a clue because they’ve never actually worked on site as an apprentice or through a trade and have just been to College.
That may be down to the construction industry not funding training sufficiently. Many years ago I kept hearing we put in for a course but CITB had no more funds whenever I was asking about competence issues.
The reliance on overseas labour and poor training is now coming home to roost for the industry.
Workers will always talk about what they're getting paid. I worked for a national retail outlet that had the same rules. It exists to shaft the workers and benefit the employer.
I go back to my point in the other thread about National Service……
The point that you made and many of us came along and told you that you were talking bollox, that point?
Looks like something else you don't understand - Brexit 2016 & Tory 2019 by any chance?
I'm experiencing the exact same lacklustre and finding it very difficult to recruit the right calibre of employee. We've premises in the north west and and the south east and find the lack of skills from people in the 20's is extraordinary. a lot are infantile still and don't seem to have any work ethic. Quite strange when compared to recruiting a decade ago.
We get electricians on site who can’t read basic drawings, have zero initiative –
You think you've got problems. The OP underestimated the size of this job by a factor of a billion. The agency workers probably assumed it would be finished by lunchtime the first day, so arranged another job for the afternoon
I may be waay off the mark here, but weren't you a climate change denier/skeptic?! Seems like an interesting twist of fate.
I suppose if workers are getting paid a crap rate by the agency, then eventually they'll just go and work in a supermarket or something? Aldi pay pretty well, and you're not in a cold muddy field. Plus pension, sick pay etc.
The absolute shower of trades that I've encountered in the past 2 years on a couple of domestic projects that we've done indicates that it's very much a sellers.....so hard to get anyone to turn up as they're all juggling so much work, then they do and the work that they do is varrying shades of passable to utter crap. No bother though, on to the next job and repeat.
Sounds like just the sort of agency work I've walked out of after half a day or a day. Just enough time to work out what's going on and not wanting to be a part of it. When you work for an agency you soon get to work out which contracts are worth doing. If the pay was high enough I took work others wouldn't, the most I got paid was working for/with the Mormons, nobody else would go.
The entire construction industry is in crisis. Even the big blue chip companies are struggling to hold on to a consistent and reliable workforce as staff can now just drift to wherever the better money and conditions are.
But this was one of the main aims of brexit wasn't it? Removal of all the "foreigners taking up jobs" So now thats been done your gonna have the pay a lot more to attract and retain.
This has nothing to do with millennials being lazy, or benefits being too good or the need for national service (or any other excuse the small minded can reach for) its simple supply and demand. We reap what we sow.
Strong Work Ethic always equals Willing to be Shafted whenever I hear it from an employer. I had a boss like that once. Biggest prick of a boss I have ever had. He tried to put me on a performance management programme because I wouldn't go over my paid hours. HR quickly put him right on that one. That company had the highest rate of employee turnover I have ever seen, and as soon as I'd paid for our wedding I was off.
Yeah the not discussing wages thing is a sure sign that the employer is shafting someone.
Pay more money.
I’m experiencing the exact same lacklustre and finding it very difficult to recruit the right calibre of employee. We’ve premises in the north west and and the south east and find the lack of skills from people in the 20’s is extraordinary. a lot are infantile still and don’t seem to have any work ethic. Quite strange when compared to recruiting a decade ago.
Is the problem you're highlighting actually an issue with THEIR parents, these 20 y/o, and how they've been brought up? As we've 3 sons in their 20's, all grafters and all with good jobs - a bit like their parents 🙂
Or is it actually highlighting a far bigger societal issue, the environment of the UK just doesn't reward young folk enough to GAS. They realise that far too many of their parents & grandparents don't believe in the common good anymore and they're going to get shafted for life, a bit like their forefathers were (before the post-war consensus)?
It's not my sector by all means but I'm going to assume it's a case of effort/pay, as in if the job is more effort than another but the pay doesn't reflect that then in their shoes they're going to think "why bother? why do harder graft, get covered in mud, soaked through and not get paid anymore than an easier job that steves asked me to do this week"
I left a job I was at for 4 years where I was wearing 6 different hats in a management position, I was on-call 24/7x365 and the only benefit was a guaranteed 3k bonus for that every April and if I'd been drinking or was away then it was accepted I wouldn't stop to do work, I loved working there, got on with everyone, had fully intended on staying there for many more years but, I got wind of a Team Leadership role somewhere else paying 16k more, less responsibilities, no on call, less hands on work, 1 hat to wear so I applied for it, got it n took it. A year later they ended up forcing a return to office 4 days a week and changed contract with sign it or be made redudant which I didnt agree with (my team was geographically dispersed so no face-to-face at all) so I left, now in another IT management position wearing 2 hats, only had a 4k pay bump from the last one but I'm also saving 4k on commuting so, compared to where I was 3 years ago, I'm now wearing 4 less hats, no on call, fully remote and I'm 24k better off for it. It seems a lot of people in other sectors are also doing the same, looking to do less and get more if you know what I mean.
It's almost like people have realised getting paid shite all for the profit of others knowing they will never be able buy a house or anything nice isn't worth working hard.
But if they are lucky they might get to move out of their parents house by 30.
Yeah the not discussing wages thing is a sure sign that the employer is shafting someone.
Pay more money.
This is an instruction to my lads.
Because no one factors in the fact that they are working 180 miles from home, a percentage of their wage is to cover subsistence and they have different responsibilities to the agency guys.
As soon as the headline number gets mentioned, it causes issues without any consideration as to why.
As I've stated, the agency guy who has proved himself for a couple of weeks is getting some extra
This is an instruction to my lads.
Because no one factors in the fact that they are working 180 miles from home, a percentage of their wage is to cover subsistence and they have different responsibilities to the agency guys.
These are intelligent adults, right? They can work this stuff out for themselves. Your attitude to your workers speaks volumes.
@intheborders - you've raised three diamonds!
<br />It's quite odd and obviously not knowing their parents etc it's a difficult to comment.
Back to the OP though, when at various meetings there is a general theme that good people are getting harder and harder to find especially with the younger people coming up. Quite sad and worrying really.
