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Hope this is heeded:
I doubt it. The UK prison service is likely to be thrown even further into chaos early next year as changing visa rules (more pandering to the far right) will lead to a large number of west African prison officers leaving their jobs and the UK. This will be the prison service that is on the brink of collapse already and just last week accidentally released Hadush Kebatu - much to the delight of the far right.
But very little has been said in the news about this. Yet another example of pandering to prejudice resulting in the UK shooting itself in the foot. And who benefits from the chaos, the further breakdown of public services? The far right.
How can Starmer not see this? Why does he keep legitimising Reform by echoing their hate? Politically the man is adrift and hopeless.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/sep/12/prison-officers-uk-skilled-work-visa-rule-change
Why does he keep legitimising Reform by echoing their hate?
Why do you think? His party has done the analysis and determined that it's more likely to be more effective to fight for the voters lost to reform than it would be to pander to those already on the left - because until recently there was no credible alternative further to the left. Clearly the rise of the Greens is going to affect that.
It's not good, but that's clearly what's happening - I can't believe you can't see that. Starmer is in an impossible situation and even if it weren't impossible he's not good enough of an operator to get out of it.
FPTP with two main parties means that each party has to be a coalition of diverse views, and they can only be held together by strong leadership. Lack of strong leadership OR incursions from either side is clearly going to destabilise that and we have both currently. UK politics has always been about hidden compromise because of the electoral system - but that is all about to change possibly for the first time ever in British political history, or maybe the second time.
I'm not sure if the link works but it is an excellent article, note this :
But it arrests the narrative of Farage the unstoppable insurgent, and begs the question of whether his support has reached a ceiling. When voters want to punish the establishment parties, they have other choices.
Tactical voting appears to have created a winning anti-Farage coalition. Plaid said Labour voters and even party members told canvassers they’d be backing the nationalists to keep Reform out.,
Astonishingly, Westminster’s two main parties, who’ve traded power for a century, won less than 15% between them. That’s a lesson for both Starmer and Conservative leader Kemi Badenoch about pandering to Reform voters.
It's not good, but that's clearly what's happening - I can't believe you can't see that. Starmer is in an impossible situation and even if it weren't impossible he's not good enough of an operator to get out of it.
I can see it. Mine was what you might term a rhetorical rant.
It's not impossible, mind. But he's definitely not a good enough operator to get out of it either. It was a lot more possible 12 months ago when most people were just relieved to see the back of the Tories.
It should have been presented, around this time last year, as it has taken six months to look at all the damage. We need to do X, Y and Z which will mean binning this manifesto pledge or that policy direction. Change is what you wanted and change is what you will get.
But they just retreated into a bunker of not wanting to upset the applecart. And here we are. Drifting towards a Reform government in 2029 with no clear battle lines drawn. Lands of strangers one minute and preaching inclusivity the next.
Why does he keep legitimising Reform by echoing their hate?
He's done it for months.
Labour did have options available to them but they selected the most lazy, cheap and inneffective way - i.e not doing much and hoping the votes would turn to them through a series of Reform baiting noises.
Starmer was never in an impossible situation because from the off they *chose* black-holes and *tough choices* as opposed to getting their hands dirty and fixing things by virtue of being in power and having political will, and the full power of the GBP with whatever resources are available.
Changing narratives was also part of the deal for me. They didn't embrace that - instead they chose flirting with right-wing economic orthodoxy, and flags. That supports the narrative that goes against the reason for voting Labour.
Labour were only popular when they lied their way into power with their progressive pledges. Right-leaning political parties simply see the world in very simple ways - built on lies, prejudices and misinformation. This is why Greens are currently popular because ZP figured this out a few years ago. Starmer and Reeves have zero interest in rebuilding the UK - like parties before them.
They've not run out of options - they've decided not to select those options that could make a difference. But yeah the general feeling on top of all this that Starmer is not good enough is there too. Technocrats are losing the public. It doesn't help either that not being seen immaculate with the truth - as well as a bunch of terrible personal choices at odds with political prominance - and the standards people were expecting.
I think Labour deserve everything that comes to them for letting the voters down in this way.
Why does he keep legitimising Reform by echoing their hate?
Because many of the former Labour supporters in former Labour "safe seats" are expressing a desire to vote Reform because 1, they voted for Brexit and 2, they think there's too much immigration. If Labour want to win elections in the future they need those votes.
I thought this was obvious to everyone?
Ah yes the "peer pressure" excuse for racism that the right wingers keep using to brush over labours adoption of racism and march to the right, I wouldn't accept it from a child never mind political leader.
Why does he keep legitimising Reform by echoing their hate?
Because many of the former Labour supporters in former Labour "safe seats" are expressing a desire to vote Reform....
Yet it was to the Left, not the Right, that Labour lost a by-election in one of its one hundred year old strongholds last Thursday.
And yes you are right to talk of former Labour "safe seats", there are no longer any thanks to Keir Starmer/Morgan McSweeney
I thought this was obvious to everyone?
That legitimising Reform by echoing their hate is the way forward? Nah, I don't think that is obvious to anyone that giving Reform a helping hand is the best way to defeat them.
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Why does he keep legitimising Reform by echoing their hate?
Because many of the former Labour supporters in former Labour "safe seats" are expressing a desire to vote Reform....
Yet it was to the Left, not the Right, that Labour lost a by-election in one of its one hundred year old strongholds last Thursday.
And yes you are right to talk of former Labour "safe seats", there are no longer any thanks to Keir Starmer/Morgan McSweeney
I thought this was obvious to everyone?
That legitimising Reform by echoing their hate is the way forward? Nah, I don't think that is obvious to anyone that giving Reform a helping hand is the best way to defeat them.
.
If Labour want to win elections in the future they need those votes.
Labour don't get those votes by doing what they're doing - clearly. They get more votes by fixing things for a large group of people, something they're pretending is not an option. (Cough bullshit.)
Every bit of evidence around you says just pretending to be Reform is not getting them those votes.
The Labour right are dead in the water and their strategy has fallen apart at the expense of many of us.
My prediction: A new Labour leader gives enough of a bounce before the next GE which along with Greens, LDs and a resurgent Plaid in Wales gives us a rainbow parliament, Labour to lead a minority coalition but be unpopular.
I think its the Lib Dems who will get the opportunity to lead. As Caerphilly showed, when people knew it is a two horse race between Reform and (any) other party, they forget about the protest vote for Reform and vote for the alternative to keep Reform out. I worked in Merthyr for quite a few years to know South Wales isn`t a Plaid strong hold and most viewed Plaid as something of a Loony party.
Labour appear as dead as the Conservatives. Whilst Labour were always going to have a very difficult time picking up the pieces after the mess the Conservatives left, Starmer certainly hasn`t helped Labours case in how he has mismanaged one crisis after the other ... plus his cosying up to Trump has further diminished his reputation.
I worked in Merthyr for quite a few years to know South Wales isn`t a Plaid strong hold and most viewed Plaid as something of a Loony party.
When was that, though? I think since the SNP did well a lot of people here in Wales start to think they want their own sensible party. Plaid made it clear that independence is not an immediate policy aim but a long term aspiration and that has helped them start to become that. Only start, mind, because a lot of older people don't change their minds very quickly and don't necessarily pay attention.
But what Cameron was actually doing was giving the British public a ****-you button, and asking: “Do you want to press it?”
Exactly.
Added to which austerity had really bitten hard and many had not forgotten Gordon Browns snearing response to those with genuine concerns about how fast their local communities (Crewe, etc, .. ) had changed with minimal/no govt support to help those communities through that change.
Being in the EU didn't deliver good living standards for many.
True, and sadly that will always be the case. The question is whether “many” is a bigger or smaller number outside or inside the EU?
That woman was a bigot, though. 🤷♂️
I would attribute far more to the MP's expenses scandal (in second place after austerity).
But it was indeed a **** you button. And the electorate pressed it. Unfortunately the electorate didn't realise the 'you' bit referred back to themselves. As far as I'm aware, David Cameron is still doing absolutely fine out there somewhere.
I thought this was obvious to everyone?
A glance at the opinion polls would tell you that it's not working. An alternative strategy would be to show some leadership, work on making life better for ordinary people, and try leading the argument rather than following it.
I've just heard Danny Kruger apparently redefine hate speech and racism. Apparently it is not the words you say, but the intention behind them.
I wonder how happy Zia Yusuf would be if one of Lee Anderson's constituents threw his arm around him and, in gruff north Nottinghamshire, said "you're alright for a...". That particular word having been standard slang amongst many white working class communities for the shop on the corner. I'm pretty sure it was used in that context in an early, uncut version of an Only Fools and Horses episode.
Apparently it's the intent that matters. And you'll have to take my word for that.
🙄
The question is whether “many” is a bigger or smaller number outside or inside the EU?
thats been well and truly answered by now, living standards have fallen , inequality increased, child poverty hit a record high earlier this year
by every measure Brexit has failed to deliver what it promised; fixing the NHS and public services, reducing immigration, reducing inequality, making food cheaper, saving the fishing industry, boosting the economy......
a 4% drop in GDP is just a statistic, but its a statistic that resulted in real damage to peoples lives and the poorest have bourne the brunt
it wasnt a ***** you button, it was a *ourselves button
the sad thing is the millionaires that told us Brexit would be great feel none of that pain but the are riding high on the discontent it has helped create
(see Danny Kruger post above)
double post
double post
That woman was a bigot, though.
If she was bigotry then it's even worse Danny, Gordon Brown personally went round to her house and spent 40 minutes apologising and listening to her concerns.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/apr/28/gordon-brown-apologises-bigoted-woman-remark
"I misunderstood what she said. She has accepted that there was a misunderstanding, and she has accepted my apology"
It is widely accepted that when 8 East European countries joined the EU 6 years earlier it was Gordon Brown who convinced Tony Blair to waiver the temporary immigration controls from those nations.
As Chancellor Gordon Brown had an obsession with wage-fueled inflation, something which continued until the global credit crisis, allowing an influx of labour from low-wage high unemployment (at the time) economies was likely to put deflationary pressures.
The only two other EU countries who allowed unrestricted immigration from those 8 Eastern European countries were Sweden and Ireland, so the UK was the natural choice for most of these new economic migrants and as a consequence 1.5 million came to the UK, far exceeding the UK government's expectations.
It would be deeply disingenuous to pretend that this decision had no effect on housing, local healthcare, services, wages, etc. even if it didn't effect the affluent middle-classes who enjoyed the benefits of cheap and easily available cleaners and builders for their home extensions.
I actually doubt that had Gordon Brown not managed to convince Tony Blair to allow an unrestricted immigration from Eastern Europe in 2004 whether Leave would have won the 2016 referendum.
If there is one single person above all others for being the most pivotal in the UK voting to leave the EU it is Gordon Brown imo not Nigel Farage. The result of the referendum was so close that had that cockup in 2004 not occurred Leave would probably have lost.
Btw Danny were the governments of the other 12 countries who didn't accept unrestricted immigration from Eastern Europe in 2004 also bigots like Mrs Duffy?
that's been well and truly answered by now, living standards have fallen , inequality increased, child poverty hit a record high earlier this year
Same changers have been happening in the EU, these are the figures from Germany for child poverty over the past few years.
- 2020: Around 20.2% of children under 18 were at risk of poverty.
- 2021: The at-risk-of-poverty rate for those under 18 rose to 21.3%.
- 2023: Nearly one-fourth of children and young people in Germany faced poverty or social exclusion, at a rate of 23.9%.
- 2024: A report noted that child poverty had reached a record high
It's the failure of neoliberalism that is causing the problems, in and out of the EU. Here in Germany living standards are falling, wage growth is supressed, assets are inflating and inflation figures are massaged to disguise the true fall in living standards, home ownership has become near impossible for younger generations, the far right are edging closer to power and the Government is chasing them to the right and making matters worse.
Sound familiar?
Absolutely. Many enjoyed some benefits of Neoliberalism as it put cheap credit into the economy instead of state spending. (Reduce taxes they shouted.)
So we ended up with private debt to make up for poor wages and living standards..
The whole growth thing has fallen flat as governments haven't invested their own money to then sell off that wealth in recent times.
That's all Thatcherism was a temporary misdirection of ideology secretly backed by state money and wealth.
But oh my god how have we fallen for it. This will sit around Brexit as the main failure of modern times.
The question is whether “many” is a bigger or smaller number outside or inside the EU?
My mistake as I decided, when posting the above, not to add a comment about the current world/European economic climate and the difficulty disentangling the impact of that and Brexit on the state of the UK economy. What I do get is the likely 4% drop in GDP and the impact that is having. Maddening, but it is where we are.
As for the lady being a bigot, I am loath to judge her on that outburst. I am lucky enough to live in a nice village, with several nice villages nearby and a couple of nice towns not so far away. Crewe is a bit further from us but we knew people who were well aware/part of what was happening there with issues rapidly occurring in schools, hospitals, and other local services, with minimal support from the government early on. If that was my children’s education being adversely impacted, along with my local services and I had no way of influencing things, would I feel my way of life was being threatened? I wonder how different my attitude to the man responsible may have been?
What I do get is the likely 4% drop in GDP and the impact that is having.
That’s the easy part to understand, and accept. The harder part is watching people turn to Farage, Tice etc as a result. Despite them being the loudest proponents of it.
Also interesting that in this poll the Reform/Tory block is 44% and the non Reform/Tory block is 48%.
This kind of split is pretty similar across all the polls. Be interesting to see how this plays through a first past the post system.
If the polls stay where they are... that's likely Reform taking a lot of seats off Labour, with fewer gains for any of the other parties.
But it's worse than that. There are about 100 seats where Reform need nothing like this kind of swing to move from 2nd (or close 3 way split) to take the seat. The polling could seriously worsen for Reform, and they'd likely still take most of those 100 seats. Reform very unlikely to be a minor player in the house come the election. 2nd biggest party very likely (with LibDems and Greens taking a few more seats of the Conservatives making them the 3rd or even 4th biggest party for the first time ever). Biggest party on seat count? No, but that "injustice" is going to allow them cause major mischief. Enough for it to be a huge step towards power.
....in a GE the size of the shift will depend loads on tactical voting - assuming polls don't move - which could get MPs elected from Green, LD and Labour whereas straight polling, even at constituency level would suggest otherwise.
In the forthcoming locals I think there will be less tactical voting and more voting across the spectrum which will be a hammer blow for Labour as it's the Labour stronghold metropolitan areas
Also interesting that in this poll the Reform/Tory block is 44% and the non Reform/Tory block is 48%.
Yup, that is often overlooked imo. And with a margin of error of 2-3% it is quite feasible that, based on the above figures, that Labour could come 5th if a general election were held now.
Whilst currently a Reform-Tory (probably short-lived) coalition would be the most likely a Labour-LibDem-Nationalist-Green-YP rainbow coalition is also fairly feasible.
Such a rainbow coalition would absolutely require a total change at the very top of the Labour though. The current authoritarian centrist shower who have an iron grip on the Labour Party and won't tolerate any form of dissent from their own party member are never going to be able to form a government with members of other political parties.
And judging by the behaviour of the Labour centrist clique during the 2015-20 period I would never trust them to treat keeping the Tories out of government as a priority.
In fact I can imagine that if the Tories were to choose a leader more to their liking that the Labour centrist clique would be prepared to consider forming a coalition with them, in a bid to keep the Nationalists, Greens, YP, and Reform, out of government.
In fact I can imagine that if the Tories were to choose a leader more to their liking that the Labour centrist clique would be prepared to consider forming a coalition with them, in a bid to keep the Nationalists, Greens, YP, and Reform, out of government.
Terrifying. But will be seen as a get out of jail option for Libs.
Anything but the left.
I wouldn't call the SNP or Plaid Cymru "Nationalists"... but that's just semantics. On actual policy though, both parties do look to be preparing their members to not insist on any major steps towards independence as a red line when it comes to working with other parties in the near future. Both look to have an eye on providing stability and cooperation if need be. I agree it'll be Labour that would find it hardest to accept and adapt to any arrangements with other parties forced upon them.
Anything but the left.
Yup, even if the alternative is a Tory government.
As Labour's trailblazing centrist Tony Blair once made it unambiguously clear :
I'm still chuckling at the "keep YP out of government" line... they'll do that all by themselves.
Anyway, we'll likely see lots of new cooperation deals in councils falling to no overall control in May. It will be interesting (and not always in a good way) to see who works with whom, and what they prioritise.
In fact I can imagine that if the Tories were to choose a leader more to their liking that the Labour centrist clique would be prepared to consider forming a coalition with them, in a bid to keep the Nationalists, Greens, YP, and Reform, out of government.
That would be a fantastic coalition. It would get rid of the worst bits of both parties, and then there would probably be just about enough sensible people left to run the country.
That would be a fantastic coalition
Well it would definitely have some support, with probably a fair few takers on here.
And as you point out they could run the country as the Tories and Labour have been doing for the last 45 years.
What could possibly go wrong?
That would be a fantastic coalition. It would get rid of the worst bits of both parties, and then there would probably be just about enough sensible people left to run the country.
A Labour Tory coalition would be fantastic? Where have you been for the last 15 years and who are these sensible people in the tory and Labour Party?
A Labour Tory coalition would be fantastic? Where have you been for the last 15 years and who are these sensible people in the tory and Labour Party?
Well exactly! but some people see good-old fashioned ruinous policy as the stable alternative to shouty noisy right-wing thoroughbreds.
The left doesn't get a look in.
who are these sensible people in the tory and Labour Party?
I'm guessing Cameron-Osborne and Starmer-Reeves.
It's almost as if Jamz has just woken up after falling asleep in 2010 and isn't aware of what going into coalition with the Tories did for the LibDems.
Although to be fair it was a great result for the Tories, so perhaps that's the appeal? 💡
Hate to point out the obvious, but this country has been in structural decline since some time in the late 19th century. That decline has been compounded by plenty of mistakes on all sides over the course of the last 100 years. But ultimately, our present predicament comes down to one thing, and that is welfare - the giant leach which is sucking all of the money and all of the life out of the country. If you think the answer to our problems is to punish the people who make money, whilst giving yet more money to the unproductive, then you are detached from reality.
^^ That's a pretty nasty comment to be honest. What's your take on my friend with MS, she gets PIP and UC and worked in a care home till she physically couldn't?
But ultimately, our present predicament comes down to one thing, and that is welfare - the giant leach which is sucking all of the money and all of the life out of the country
Ah, yes, now I understand. Obviously the postwar welfare state was the Labour Party's little baby, I am assuming that by "welfare" you don't mean the 19th century Victorian workhouses?
So presumably your fondness for the idea of a Labour-Tory coalition is based on the idea that it would do as much damage to Labour that going into coalition with the Tories did to the LibDems.
My concluding sentence in my previous post seems to have hit the nail on the head :
Although to be fair it was a great result for the Tories, so perhaps that's the appeal? 💡
then you are detached from reality.
Says the person who thinks that the solution is to reward those who "make" money with even more money!
Odds are you'll get cancer one day, Jamz, probably a heart condition too, and may lose your marbles. Will you be refusing welfare? I assume you have "do not treat or resucitate" tatooed on your chest.
But ultimately, our present predicament comes down to one thing, and that is welfare - the giant leach which is sucking all of the money and all of the life out of the country
Don't be ridiculous.
Welfare is a net *add* to the economy.
And serves as a support mechanism for many who would otherwise be in a right mess.
Despite what you believe the problems are elsewhere.
Without government money the likes of the rich would be nowhere.
What's your take on my friend with MS, she gets PIP and UC and worked in a care home till she physically couldn't?
It’s her own fault for not being rich?
It’s her own fault for not being rich?
Or trying hard enough