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100%.
Not worth the effort lol, I suspect others feel the same.
That's a shame. I for one will miss your insults and memes that provide for such healthy debate.
it doesn't need to add up, the centrists can create the six whenever they feel the need and then tax any excess back out to stop it from overinflating
I see what you did 👍
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The most annoying thing is some folks gaslighting others that centrists are some sort of organised political group.
Until they chose to understand that centrism simply means someone who doesn't hold extreme views in any particular direction, the clue is in the name, it makes further discourse a pointless exercise.
Nope. Not here at least, I've taken my political debating elsewhere to an environment that isn't toxic.
Presumably somewhere where everyone agrees with you? Political 'debating' isn't debating if you run off the minute someone presents an alternative argument.
Until they chose to understand that centrism simply means someone who doesn't hold extreme views in any particular direction
Nah, centrism simply means conservatism. Too afraid to change anything of substance because the people who gain from the status quo might be slighly less wealthy or powerful than they were before. Centrism is the politics of deference, that is all.
Until they chose to understand that centrism simply means someone who doesn't hold extreme views in any particular direction, the clue is in the name, it makes further discourse a pointless exercise.
Doesn't make it super clear what views you might hold though. Also Centrism - center of what? If the politics are shifting right - you are going with it.
Is there any more criticism attached to centrist than lefty? I don't think so. Not if you've been here for a few years.
Nor does this make Centrism immune from its one imploding contradiction that most Centrists apparently abhor Tories yet accept their framing of the economy. (BoE policies, tight finances, market driven bullshit economics ) It might not be extreme but it's fundamentally bad for public purpose. And yet you guys hate the Tories.
If you disagree with that then maybe you're not really a centrist ....
The extreme views argument doesn't wash unless you think fully funding the NHS is extreme.
And if Starmer is a Centrist then he deserves criticism for making a Centrist hash of it all. Worse than this like the Democrats in the USA many Centrists can't see where it's all going wrong when they're part of the problem too.
I'd say own it - just like I'd own my values too.
Maybe you're a moderate not a Centrist?
Presumably somewhere where everyone agrees with you? Political 'debating' isn't debating if you run off the minute someone presents an alternative argument.
I believe that presumption is inaccurate. Someone said it in the "this forum is dead/dying" thread - you used to be able to come here and be informed, I've certainly had my mind changed about things posted on political threads (and other topics) in here. Not any more. Just the same handful of posters going over and over the same toxic tired old nonsense, and heaven forbid anyone suggest anything different or offer a contrary opinion or criticism.
just the alternate voices aren't so unpleasant.
You mean like this?
"the utterly Joyless, humourless, sanctimonious, self-righteous, holier-than-though, virtue-signalling ****s"
In the 16 years I've been talking about politics on this forum I've never once heard a 'lefty' using the sort of language used above.
Enters thread to see if theres anything interesting... nope, same as always!
Feel free to change that by posting something interesting
Not worth the effort lol, I suspect others feel the same.
Agreed. This seems to be the snide comment thread, so no point trying to post anything interesting or worthwhile. Mind you, I'm not far of the age of Bart's grandad and I suspect this is a sport for younger folk.
This seems to be the snide comment thread
Presume you mean the likes of this?
"the utterly Joyless, humourless, sanctimonious, self-righteous, holier-than-though, virtue-signalling ****s"
If anyone has destroyed proper discussion on this thread (and others), it's not the lefty "six". All I/we are guilty of is being consistent in our opinions and assessments. I mean it's not like we haven't been proven right time and again, but I guess that's the central problem.
Nah, centrism simply means conservatism. Too afraid to change anything of substance because the people who gain from the status quo might be slighly less wealthy or powerful than they were before. Centrism is the politics of deference, that is all.
That's the kind of casual dismissal of a large number of people's views that makes them want to keep away from the political threads on here. And the tone comes across as insulting, which isn't helpful to debate either.
"center of what? If the politics are shifting right - you are going with it. "
I completely disagree.
In the context of politics at least, the center is a fixed point.
Ideas can expand to the left or right of that, or in an authoritarian or libertarian direction to add another two axis...
But it doesn't change where the center is any more than you can change the center position of a wheel by fitting a funny shaped tyre to it.
So it gets right up my jacksie when people tar centrists as right wing, for example.
But it doesn't change where the center is
So, a hundred years ago, where was the "center" [sic] with respect to votes for women?
Enters thread to see if theres anything interesting... nope, same as always!
Well there is a link on the thread today reporting that the UK government (it's a thread about the UK government) is announcing a new policy which will see £billions pumped into Red Wall seats in what appears to be Labour's version of levelling up.
Apparently this development, which I personally warmly welcome, is in response to the political pressure which the government feels it is receiving from Reform UK.
I consider that quite "interesting", don't you? Otherwise what would you find interesting on a thread about the UK government?
Or perhaps you are simply not that interested in politics?💡
Enters thread to see if theres anything interesting... nope, same as always!
Feel free to change that by posting something interesting
Not worth the effort lol, I suspect others feel the same.
If you actually felt that way you definitely wouldn't be clicking on this thread lol.
The reality is that the government has made it increasingly difficult for centrists to defend its policies so you have thrown in the towel whilst crying that it is all the fault of Lefties that you are no longer willing to defend Starmer's disastrous premiership.
You do realise that all the election results and opinion polls since July 2024 are showing that it is more than six people on a MTB forum who are pissed off with Starmer's and, don't you?
But it doesn't change where the center is
So, a hundred years ago, where was the "center" [sic] with respect to votes for women?
I'd say if you hold the position that women shouldn't have a vote, that would be right wing and authoritarian.
An attempt to be more constructive.
Some time back, maybe 6 months, maybe more this place was becoming deeply unpleasant. It took 2 to tango, and I admit I was part of the problem. To address, I took a step back, had a voluntary ban and watched from the sidelines as nothing changed.
After the ban was up, I continued to watch, as gradually others came to same conclusion. They've given their own reasons, sometimes in direct language, and this thread and other like it became ever more echo-ey.
Those that remained are mainly the so-called 'six' and their accolytes, who afaict have not moderated at all. In fact, as their political opponents have drifted away, the style has moved to goading; 'why aren't the centrists speaking up' 'ashamed to show faces now their Messiah has been found out' etc.
Whenever anyone's daft enough to offer an alternate, like schoolyard bullies sensing a new kid they're dogpiled. Some of the 'six' you barely see UNTIL there's someone to dogpile, but turn up they do.
Point this out and it's 'stop playing the victim' Whether that's true or not it feels like it, and I get enjoyment from debating political views but no enjoyment debating it with you lot and in this environment.
Some of you seem quite reasonable on other threads, doesn't mean we haven't disagreed but the behaviour is different. Some of you. There are others, that unable to get an argument going here now seem to go over to other threads to try to start one there. As soon as they show up, I'm pretty much out again.
Last few days, the goading's been going back in the other direction and that's not going to solve anything, but frankly it's all that's worth posting from this side of the fence now.
I could tell you how optimistic I am about the SR on June 11th, and what lies in wait for this second phase of the 5 years but of course can't say why, and so expect someone will be along to Walt me again.
That's the kind of casual dismissal of a large number of people's views
No it's a statement of fact. Most people on here do quite well out of the status quo (including myself). It's not a coincidence that many/most centrists and conservatives are successful professional types with nice houses, high tax-rate salaries and a fat pension pot to look forward to. Why would they want to change a system they do so well out of? Instead of coming up with all sorts of excuses or logical acrobatics just admit it's because it works for them and they don't want to change it.
"The reality is that the government has made it increasingly difficult for centrists to defend"
I'm not defending any Labour policies... I think Starmer has done some things I very much agree with, and some things I very much disagree with.
I've even written to my Labour MP asking him what the justification is for inviting a convicted sex offender and convicted financial fraudster on a UK state visit and potentially address Parliament is,
And urging them to forge closer ties with the EU.
Unfortunately I've not had a reply.. Not even from an office assistant or anything.
So to insinuate I'm a fan of labour, under Starmer or otherwise is nothing more than a gross misrepresentation.
An attempt to be more constructive.
Some time back, maybe 6 months, maybe more this place was becoming deeply unpleasant. It took 2 to tango, and I admit I was part of the problem. To address, I took a step back, had a voluntary ban and watched from the sidelines as nothing changed.
After the ban was up, I continued to watch, as gradually others came to same conclusion. They've given their own reasons, sometimes in direct language, and this thread and other like it became ever more echo-ey.
Those that remained are mainly the so-called 'six' and their accolytes, who afaict have not moderated at all. In fact, as their political opponents have drifted away, the style has moved to goading; 'why aren't the centrists speaking up' 'ashamed to show faces now their Messiah has been found out' etc.
Whenever anyone's daft enough to offer an alternate, like schoolyard bullies sensing a new kid they're dogpiled. Some of the 'six' you barely see UNTIL there's someone to dogpile, but turn up they do.
Point this out and it's 'stop playing the victim' Whether that's true or not it feels like it, and I get enjoyment from debating political views but no enjoyment debating it with you lot and in this environment.
Some of you seem quite reasonable on other threads, doesn't mean we haven't disagreed but the behaviour is different. Some of you. There are others, that unable to get an argument going here now seem to go over to other threads to try to start one there. As soon as they show up, I'm pretty much out again.
Last few days, the goading's been going back in the other direction and that's not going to solve anything, but frankly it's all that's worth posting from this side of the fence now.
I could tell you how optimistic I am about the SR on June 11th, and what lies in wait for this second phase of the 5 years but of course can't say why, and so expect someone will be along to Walt me again.
A great post. So what's your views on Rachel Reeves's levelling up plans and pumping £billions into the Red Wall seats? Is it as claimed a reaction to the threat to Labour from Reform, and will it save her political skin?
Many people have suggested that it was very much on the line and when prime ministers sack the chancellors their own resignation generally follow not too soon afterwards.
Kudos to those who've stuck their heads up to challenge the maleficent 6, at least it's given this thread a little roughage.
@ernielynch
I think it absolutely stinks..
Councils should get funding from central gov based on things like population number, depravity, quality of service etc etc.
NOT whether the council is red, blue, green or yellow.
Propping up certain councils, or starving them to gain political advantage is abhorrent behavior, IMO.
I'd say if you hold the position that women shouldn't have a vote, that would be right wing and authoritarian.
But 100 years ago, it was a pretty normal - one might say "centrist" viewpoint. Or are you saying that by happy coincidence we happen to live right now in an era where "centrist" roughly corresponds to the midpoint of main left wing and right wing parties?
So what's your views on Rachel Reeves's levelling up plans and pumping £billions into the Red Wall seats? Is it as claimed a reaction to the threat to Labour from Reform, and will it save her political skin?
I have no interest in debating politics on here, I hope I've made that clear enough.
I'd say if you hold the position that women shouldn't have a vote, that would be right wing and authoritarian.
But 100 years ago, it was a pretty normal - one might say "centrist" viewpoint. Or are you saying that by happy coincidence we happen to live right now in an era where "centrist" roughly corresponds to the midpoint of main left wing and right wing parties?
The mid point between left and right is... Drum roll!
The middle!
The envelop doesn't move just because you want it to.
That's the kind of casual dismissal of a large number of people's views
No it's a statement of fact. Most people on here do quite well out of the status quo (including myself). It's not a coincidence that many/most centrists and conservatives are successful professional types with nice houses, high tax-rate salaries and a fat pension pot to look forward to. Why would they want to change a system they do so well out of? Instead of coming up with all sorts of excuses or logical acrobatics just admit it's because it works for them and they don't want to change it.
That's an incredibly arrogant view. I don't tick any of your boxes so I'm obviously centrist enough for you either.
@ernielynch
I think it absolutely stinks..
Councils should get funding from central gov based on things like population number, depravity, quality of service etc etc.NOT whether the council is red, blue, green or yellow.
Propping up certain councils, or starving them to gain political advantage is abhorrent behavior, IMO.
I know exactly what you mean, and it's a valid point. However the Labour Party was created to represent working people in parliament, not as neutral entity to serve the interests of everyone, a literally impossible goal. And even the Tories were quite open that leveling up was for the benefit of one specific demographic/section of society.
So I very much welcome the direction which Starmer's government is now taking on this particular issue, even though it is almost certainly for the wrong reasons, I very much doubt that they would be talking about the government pumping £billions into Red Wall seats (I doubt that the government uses that term) if they had a 20% lead in the polls, they would be talking about the need to make "hard decision".
Earlier you said that you couldn't see anything interesting on this thread but now we have a situation where you are claiming that a Labour government policy "absolutely stinks" whilst in contrast I am warmly welcoming it, I would say that is an interesting development wouldn't you agree?
Ok thought experiment time!
1.I belive we should have a health care system funded by general taxaton... So I'm left wing.
2. I belive we should have a police force, so I'm authoritarian.
3. I belive in a free market so I'm right wing.
4. I belive in things like bodily automity when it comes to things like abortion, That makes me a libertarian.
So what am I? If we take the net sum of the above, then the only conclusion I can come to is that I'm centrist.
"Labour Party was created to represent working people in parliament, not as neutral entity to serve the interests of everyone"
If that's truly the core labour philosophy then it's deeply discriminatory and wrong, IMO.
I belive in equality in this context , not equality with pre-conditions or with caviats.
Because then it's not equality anymore.
Kudos to those who've stuck their heads up to challenge the maleficent 6, at least it's given this thread a little roughage.
But the challenge isn't political is it?
The Six v The Rest is nothing more than a ad hominem argument, the very thing which Mark has said he would rather not see. All based on this wonderfully hyperbolic ad hominem attack
It’s not even worth posting on any of those threads any more, due to the utterly Joyless, humourless, sanctimonious, self-righteous, holier-than-though, virtue-signalling ****s all competing in their Taliban-esque way, for some inexplicable reason, to signal how idealogically pure they are .
So what am I? If we take the net sum of the above, then the only conclusion I can come to is that I'm centrist.
Indeed but the point is that if you'd given the same answers 100 years ago you would not have been "centrist", so your claim (AIUI) that the 'centre' is fixed is not correct.
I have to say that I’ve no idea who the “six” are as I never pay attention to who posted a response, maybe I should pay more attention, perhaps I’m one of the six…. 🤨 ?
So what am I? If we take the net sum of the above, then the only conclusion I can come to is that I'm centrist.
Indeed but the point is that if you'd given the same answers 100 years ago you would not have been "centrist", so your claim (AIUI) that the 'centre' is fixed is not correct.
I disagree completely..
Just because I'm centrist it doesn't make a right winger calling me a lefty any more accurate than a left winger calling me a righty.
I may have been called an extreme leftist 100 years ago, or maybe even a witch or something.
It doesn't make it so.
I have to say that I’ve no idea who the “six” are
The first rule of The Six is ....
If that's truly the core labour philosophy then it's deeply discriminatory and wrong, IMO.
I belive in equality I this context , not equality with pre-conditions or with caviats.
Because then it's not equality anymore.
Well I guess that depends whether you believe that we live in a classless society where everyone has the same access to resources.
Personally I don't and unlike you I don't believe in equality I believe in equity.
We are not here in this world to find elegant solutions, pregnant with initiative, or to serve the ways and modes of profitable progress. No, we are here to provide for all those who are weaker and hungrier, more battered and crippled than ourselves. That is our only certain good and great purpose on earth, and if you ask me about those insoluble economic problems that may arise if the top is deprived of their initiative, I would answer 'To hell with them.' The top is greedy and mean and will always find a way to take care of themselves. They always do.
Michael Foot
Just because I'm centrist
So you're the only one who knows where the "centre" is. OK, no need to discuss further.
Just because I'm centrist
So you're the only one who knows where the "centre" is. OK, no need to discuss further.
Well it's not rocket science my friend... The center is the mid point between two equally distant pre defined points.
So a lurch to the right doesn't drag everyone right.. It just means more people are right of center. It doesn't change my position for example.
pre defined points.
Defined by whom? You?
pre defined points.
Defined by whom? You?
Defined by mathematics and logic, I suppose.
If that's not the case then everything must surely be biased and subjective. Therfore nothing is true.
Mathematics, I suppose.
Before you disappear into another dimension, recall where this started
In the context of politics at least, the center is a fixed point.
Ideas can expand to the left or right of that, or in an authoritarian or libertarian direction to add another two axis...But it doesn't change where the center is any more than you can change the center position of a wheel by fitting a funny shaped tyre to it.
Does it not occur to you that someone 100 years ago might claim to be "centrist" with as much justification as you, and yet have very different views from yours?
That's an incredibly arrogant view.
Centrism is inherently conservative. It doesn't want to change anything fundamentally, just tweak it around the edges to make it work a tiny bit better, because radical change would almost certainly negatively impact those who currently benefit from the status quo. That seems pretty obvious to me, and it's hardly arrogant to say so.
What is arrogant is the centrist view that the way we run our economy and government is set in stone and cannot be changed. It's demonstrable nonsense, yet again and again we're told there is no alternative and anyone who disagree is either a dangerous extremist or deluded fantasist.
Mathematics, I suppose.
Before you disappear into another dimension, recall where this started
In the context of politics at least, the center is a fixed point.
Ideas can expand to the left or right of that, or in an authoritarian or libertarian direction to add another two axis...But it doesn't change where the center is any more than you can change the center position of a wheel by fitting a funny shaped tyre to it.
Does it not occur to you that someone 100 years ago might claim to be "centrist" with as much justification as you, and yet have very different views from yours?
I could claim I can fly.. It's untrue but I can still make that claim.
I could claim I can fly.. It's untrue but I can still make that claim.
Odd you say that, because it's not far off what you are actually claiming - that you, mattyfez, can define the centre of political thought, independent of any cultural, historical, psychological, religious or other biases. That's quite a pedestal to put yourself on - try not to look down!!