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So Dave has told us all what we should think about Raoul Moat, and now UK Gov are apparently approaching FaceBook and demanding that they take down all the "Moat is a legend" groups.
Whatever happened to disagreeing with what you say, but defending to the death your right to say it?
What say the STW panel: are the gov right to step in here?
No censorship. SImple.
What say the STW panel: are the gov right to step in here?
No
but [I once met a black man]Dave has a right to his opinion 🙂
Sadly the right to free speech extends to idiots, morons, geordies and privately educated millionairre toffs who believe if we all worked hard we could achieve what he has by a big society etc.
And this is on the back of previous political shenanigans to force FaceBook to add the CEOP button.
As this story transpires, i'm starting to feel a little sorry for Moat, dont get me wrong the guy is a total, tw*t, but it looks like he's been crying for help for months...
The whole Moat is a hero thing is stupid beyond belief, anyone with half a brain can see that.
But I suspect that we are going to see many missed opportunities for stepping in and providing psychiatric and/or other actions that may have prevented what eventually happened, it may soon become embarrassing for government agencies.
So while Moat is certainly no hero, he soon maybe being portrayed as a victim of the system.
I [i]think[/i] the British government has better things to do than trying to force the internet to grow up.
In terms of sheer, banal, contemptible lunacy this is up there with Brown phoning Susan Boyle after her nervous breakdown to commiserate with her on behalf of the nation and the government at how tough being famous is.
We dont have freedom of speech.
The government should promote behaviour appropriate to the type of society we should live in. It also has to condem behaviour that is no good. It should be a role model, sadly it dosent act like one all the time. Facebook should also act as a role model, not just enjoy the publicity which these things create.
Sadly the internet is open to idiots and commercial companys.
Sadly the internet is open to idiots and commercial companys
Is the irony of posting that on this forum lost on you?
I think the British government has better things to do than trying to force the internet to grow up
Another classic line Sir.
The government should promote behaviour appropriate to the type of society we should live in
The type of society that we live in could do with being one that rose above trivia, media frenzys about internet bull-sh*t and the ill-judged opinions of ignorant people. 🙂
Short of actually suppressing the internet entirely, there is simply no way of ensuring that daft and distateful opinions are not widely published.
Cameron would do well to recognise that, and also that this will all be forgotten in about 25 days time. As it is, he is trying to do something that he won't manage to do, and looking pathetic as a result. Meanwhile, the type of society that we actually live in continues to have a couple of problems that could realistically be solved by government action.
Trimix are you saying it is okay for the government to censor debate if doing so promotes the behaviour they want?????
It should be taken down just for the sake of the families of the innocent people shot dead, blinded and wounded by the murderer. To hell with freedom of speech.
blimey m_f! Who wiped their bum on your copy of the Daily Mail this morning?
Sorry - just my opinion Stoner. Daily Mail didn't make me do it.
I don't think there should be a page dedicated to this man in a positive way but we live in a country that allows freedom of speech to all. its a shame that we have a few idiots who think this about this (now dead) gunman/murderer/mental beefcake but everyone is entitled to their opinion and having an opinion doesn't make it illegal.
I think if Facebook cave in that could set a worrying precedent that facebook will start pulling other groups in fear of being on the wrong side of certain governments.
The government should promote behaviour appropriate to the type of society we should live in
Like China makes Google helpe "promote" society values via censorship of search terms?
Has anyone here been to the page and read some of the posts? The level of hatred for the police is disturbing.
As this story transpires, i'm starting to feel a little sorry for Moat, dont get me wrong the guy is a total, tw*t, but it looks like he's been crying for help for months...
Nuh-uh. Classic coward/bully tactic: "I asked you for help and you didn't give it to me. Now you're to blame for my actions."
My missus sees it a lot aa a social worker.
And I think the important thing to remember is that our Government hasn't censored the page, it has simply asked Facebook to consider taking the page down. I assume that if Facebook won't do as asked, then it will remain there.
And do you think if someone started a thread here with the same level of hatred towards the police it would be accepted by the mods? Or do you think it would be closed and the author suspended?
Jeez - we can't even talk about Gypsies without it being modded here - so just what is the difference?
Nuh-uh. Classic coward/bully tactic: "I asked you for help and you didn't give it to me. Now you're to blame for my actions."My missus sees it a lot aa a social worker
Hmmm, i never considered that angle, very interesting!
we can't [i]even[/i] talk about Gypsies
- calling for a final solution to the gypsy question - GOOD
- applauding the slaying of policemen - BAD
It's a moral minefield out there. So much to ban. 🙂
Its quite an interesting debate - should the government allow any type of speech, or promote what it thinks is good for society.
Thats a hard question to answer simply. However, some do need a role model and we do need to educate people so the opinions they hold are at least rational and well thought out.
Not much hope though really.
And I think the important thing to remember is that our Government hasn't censored the page, it has simply asked Facebook to consider taking the page down
So the govt did not censor it they just asked them to remove it - so Google is the real censor in China ? Thanks for clearing that up
we can't even talk about Gypsies without it being modded here
Well we could if people would just refrain from using abusive terms and suggesting we exterminate them all.
Nuh-uh. Classic coward/bully tactic: "I asked you for help and you didn't give it to me. Now you're to blame for my actions."
Or maybe if he had help he wouldn't have killed. Are you suggesting that help should be refused to people with mental health problems because they could just be setting up an excuse for a later murderous rampage?
My missus sees it a lot aa a social worker
Does she spend much time talking to dead murderers, asking them where it all went wrong?
Jeez - we can't even talk about Gypsies without it being modded here - so just what is the difference?
The fact that stuff gets modded here is neither here nor there
The site owners can allow or disallow what they like, there's plenty of other places you could publish it
as long as governments don't try to tell the site owners what [legal] content they can & can't publish - that's fine by me
I believe they have the right to say it so long as I have the right to believe that they are sick, misguided individuals despite possible errors being identified in the system that led up to the events (but there always will be with the power of the retrospectoscope).
I also believe "call me Dave" can voice his opinions but shouldn't be able to force them upon us. I think a mode of government that follows this line would be good to see. 🙂
The fact that stuff gets modded here is neither here nor thereThe site owners can allow or disallow what they like, there's plenty of other places you could publish it
as long as governments don't try to tell the site owners what [legal] content they can & can't publish - that's fine by me
Too many replies to answer all so I will tackle the last one - surely the content of the Facebook page spreads hatred and isn't that borderline on what is legal/illegal?
And I refer to this site as we all seem to accept STW censoring 'because they can' so why are we up in arms at the Government suggesting something similar.
Not saying I am right and anyone else is wrong, just trying to bring another point of view to the discussion here BTW...
Does she spend much time talking to dead murderers, asking them where it all went wrong?
No, you insufferable cock. She spends time dealing with people whos claim of trying to get themselves help generally turn out to be a means of offloading the minute amount of guilt they may actually feel about attacking their wives/girlfriends with hot irons and raping their kids.
Perhaps callmedave should set up a facebook campaign page of his own.
I'm with M_F on this, I agree that the system let Moat down, but the system didn't make him take a gun, kill a man, blind another, and ruin many other peoples lives. No defence for that.
And those knobs who have posted on the Moat/legend sites, ****ers, hiding behind the internet.
callmedave should set up a facebook campaign page of his own
Mastiles-fanylion and 2 others like "Raoul Moat Was A Bad Man".
🙂
The page has taken off in substantial part because the media have worked themselves into a lather over it and the moral guardians of decency and propriety have fallen for it hook, line and sinker. If everyone shuts up about it it will go away. In the meantime it is (if anything) a useful reminder that large numbers of people do not appear to share our values. Merely telling them they should does not seem likely to yield particularly good results. 🙂
large numbers of people do not appear to share our values. Merely telling them they should does not seem likely to yield particularly good results
I don't think anyone here has actually claimed that we should tell anyone to share 'our' values. I certainly don't think I could reason with the sort of person who sees Raoul Moat as a hero and thinks that anyone deserved to have been killed or maimed by him.
but it looks like he's been crying for help for months...
Not at all, he recorded some tapes beforehand in order to make the most damage when he finally went mental. He was manipulative and a murderer.
As BD says, the media yet again are making things worse by covering it. The government should have the right to suggest some sorts of behaviour are not acceptable. They do so with insighting hatred, verbal/racial/sexual abuse/discrimination. These are all peoples opinions, yet are rightly curtailed by law. Why not "I think murderers are ace" types?
Indeed, they're clearly idiots. But taking down their stupid hateful facebook page is unlikely to influence them in any positive way.
[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/cameron-beginning-to-realise-exactly-who-he%27s-in-charge-of-201007152911/ ]Daily Mash on the money as usual![/url]
Indeed, they're clearly idiots. But taking down their stupid hateful facebook page is unlikely to influence them in any positive way.
But accepting it without comment suggests it is acceptable and that the sort of views that have been aired on there are somehow justifiable.
But I do agree - without the media storm this would have disappeared more quickly and painlessly.
No censorship. SImple.
+1
And the leader of your country might do well to keep his opinions to himself.
the leader of your country might do well to keep his opinions to himself.
How does that work then? 🙄
Acceptable/justifiable to whom?
The idea that this berk was some sort of hero is (as far as we are concerned) silly, vicious and distasteful. It doesn't appear to be harmful as such. It isn't incitement to anything particularly (i've not read every bone-headed comment on there mind). It just offends decency.
If the page was "Let's kill a pig a day until we've equalled hero Raoul's weight in ounces" and consisted of active incitement to murder police officers I'd swing the other way. But it appears in the main to be nothing more than an expression of opinion which we don't share and suspect of being rather silly. 🙂
And the leader of your country might do well to keep his opinions to himself.
It isn't his opinion, it is the agreed party line surely...
How does that work then?
The comment below is not, IMHO, a suitable comment to be made by the PM. It is, IMO, a personal comment and nota political comment. Sorry, I missed personal out from "personal opinions.
🙄 🙄
Prime Minister David Cameron has said there should be no sympathy for "callous murderer" Raoul Moat.
No it is not political comment as it isn't a matter of politics. But it is the opinion of the coalition, as spoken by the leader of it (the the House or not, I am not sure???)
yes who wants a leader with a view on things 🙄
We all agree with censorship at some line we only argue over where the line is drawn.
See anrchist handbook, child pronography, snuff movies etc
I don't have a problem with Facebook and this Moat thing; the same way I don't have a problem with all the rubbish in The Sun nor the paranoia in The Mail.
But then I'm a buyer/user of none of the above - its easy, if you aren't happy with a products/companies attitude, walk and go elsewhere.