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Can we have Ed Davey pictured riding a mountain bike please?Even better get him an instructor for a couple of hours to teach him to jump first.
And can we get Cathro to both coach and ask a few choice questions? It could be called 'Between the [s]Tapes[/s] Left and Right'.
When you think about it, that’s pretty **** up
Absolutely spot on. I think the vast majority of decent people wouldn’t begrudge higher taxes if the end result was better social equality and services. But it doesn’t, taxes continually go up and the only people that seem to benefit are those at the top of the tree
The tory hate press will hold any labour government to accountability
Jeezus that might be exactly what they want their readers to believe but I don't think that telling lies and distorting the truth in one sided "debates" in their publications amounts to holding the government to account!
I would rather that the government be held accountable from the floor of the House of Commons and House of Commons Select Committees, as well as other venues suitable for balanced debates.
Asked if he had ever gone without something, the PM told ITV: "Yes, I mean, my family emigrated here with very little. And that's how I was raised. I was raised with the values of hard work."
Mr Sunak's father was a GP, while his mother ran her own pharmacy.
Asked what sort of things had to be sacrificed, he said: "Lots of things."
Pressed for an example, he said: "All sorts of things like lots of people.
Wow - didn't know his family were mass murderers...
When you think about it, that’s pretty **** up
True.
And it seems most of the home owners of the UK are happy to increase that process to keep themselves feeling wealthy and the peasants from buying on their street.
Wasn't the favored car of the country estate class a Subaru Forrester?
Although that assumes that the engines didn't grenade themselves.
I think a bigger problem than tax is where the money flows. For example (MMT fans close your ears) we use tax money to give to poor people to pay their rent, but that goes straight into the pocket of rich people directly and/or when they ultimately sell the property they’ve invested in. The ability to buy a house to let means you are taking poor people’s money, and the ability to do that means that house then becomes more valuable to other rich people, making it harder for those poor people to buy their own houses and get out of the trap they’re in.
When you think about it, that’s pretty **** up.
That also hold true from an MMT perspective.
Just think of tax and interest rates as two different ways of taking money out of the economy.
Low interest rates drive up house prices (bad for poorer people).
Low interest rates make acquiring more assets cheap (good for rich people). E.g. I definitely wouldn't have a stocks and shares ISA if my mortgage wasn't fixes at a pre-Truss rate! Alternatively I could have put that money into BTL or just outbidding someone on a house pushing the prices up either way.
Long term house prices are going to be limited by affordability, they can't keep going up as a multiple of income, we've maxed out the sensible loan terms, and we've gone from 1 income per household to two. If rates stay in the 4-5% region and we build a few hundred thousand more of them to equalize supply and demand so there's less pressure, then house prices will probably just stagnate because unless we build houses people don't actually want then people will always spend as much as they can afford on the nicest house they can afford.
MMT doesn't give you a free lunch, it just explains there are more ways to pay for it than just the HMRC current account.
I think the vast majority of decent people wouldn’t begrudge higher taxes if the end result was better social equality and services. But it doesn’t, taxes continually go up and the only people that seem to benefit are those at the top of the tree
But the taxes aren't the thing you should begrudge, it's the other policies. The taxes are still needed.
but as the Tories are being punished for not actually being right wing.
I do think it’s brilliant that that’s the conclusion most Tories seem to have already reached, bless ‘em
It's not an entirely unreasonable position. They're being punished for being incompetent and not following through on what they say. Record tax and immigration levels are hardly traditional right wing policies.
I'm amused by the disjointed messages!
Shapps, 'we are done for, give us your pity vote. '
Lil' Rishi, 'this election isn't over!'
😅😂
It’s ironic that Europe is increasingly voting to the Right, but as the Tories are being punished for not actually being right wing, Britain will lurch in the opposite direction as the only alternative option are Reform who are too new to get a foothold in parliament
If this government are not right wing then I don't know what is. What sort of policies do you propose? We've had a period of right wing government and decided we don't like it. Perhaps we're just a few years ahead on Europe (for a change).
Personally I think it should probably be taxed as a household income though. Two people on 45K pa are paying less tax that a couple with one earner on 90K and one on nothing.
"Married man's tax allowance" was abolished in 1990 in favour independent taxation which was considered fairer to married women.
Record tax and immigration levels are hardly traditional right wing policies.
Yeah but they aren't being punished for that. Otherwise it would be Reform UK that would be expected to win a landslide, not Labour.
As you say, low tax and immigration levels are hardly right wing policies, so why are almost half of the electorate saying that they intend voting Labour?
Are Labour now considered to be to the right of the Tories?
Regarding taxation being too high...
Regarding taxation being too high…
I reckon those making the claim would regard all those countries above the UK as socialist, if not practically communist - see grimep's earlier hilarious faux confusion between the Greens and communists.
They would then point to the United States and provide it as an example of a socialist free and advanced democracy.
if they raise tax then fair enough, but its not justified imo until they go after all the tax dodgers, folks who have wealth without earning it (ie inherited), fat cats, and companies and corporations that make huge profits for shareholders at the expense of the rest of society
This. I earn over 50k. When all the billionaires and Uber-millionaires pay the same proportion (or more) of their ‘income’ on tax as I do they can come and ask me for more and I’ll be happy to pay it. Until then they can f*** off quite frankly.
I wonder if Craig Williams has had a little flutter on losing his own seat.
Yeah but they aren’t being punished for that. Otherwise it would be Reform UK that would be expected to win a landslide, not Labour.
They're predicted to lose a lot of their voters to reform and labour but I expect even more will just stay at home. The Tories aren't trusted by plenty on the right to deliver on their promises and Farage only appeals to a poorly educated subset. The token performative policies like Rawanda which even if it stopped "illegal" migration entirely wouldn't make a difference to legal visas which they could have controlled but haven't.
As you say, low tax and immigration levels are hardly right wing policies, so why are almost half of the electorate saying that they intend voting Labour?
Labour aren't really promising any major changes to current policies on tax or immigration, just more competence and less dishonesty.
I'm off fir an evening ride but sounds like the debate might be spicy!
https://twitter.com/petercardwell/status/1800945015872479391?t=aIvaFbhUwxoHzsmX_3HS7Q&s=19
Farage only appeals to a poorly educated subset.
Rubbish. Plenty of public school educated right-wingers with professional backgrounds are massive supporters of Nigel Farage, the Tory Party for a start is full of them.
So the question remains if the Tories are going to lose the general election because they aren't right-wing enough why is it Labour which is expected to win a landslide not Reform UK?
Whatever your views of the current Labour Party no sane person believes that they are now more right-wing than the Tories.
Rishi: English schools are the best in the UK.
Plenty of public school educated right-wingers with professional backgrounds
Probably some of our Nige’s old classmates in that description.
Rishi: English schools are the best in the UK.
Tell me you live in southern & central England without telling me you live in southern and central England.
Nick Robinson is absolutely skewering Jim Swinney on TV at the moment.
Nick Robinson is absolutely skewering Jim Swinney on TV at the moment.
Who the hell is Jim Swinney?
Kier would do well to let Beth finish.
Beth Rigby debate:
Starmer talking absolute shite on the electricity companies.
It is so ridiculous to compare a private customer energy bill to a bill that the government can stand over nationalisation. Not even close. His argument is devoid of all awareness of government finances.
Needless to say the government gains an asset when it takes stuff into ownership.
Single Track World an arrogant, back slapping, left wing, echo chamber. Equally adept at smearing the upper-classes and the underclass but not their own class. 'Plenty of public school educated right-wingers' 'Farage only appeals to a poorly educated subset.'
😂
Single Track World an arrogant, back slapping, left wing, echo chamber. Equally adept at smearing the upper-classes and the underclass but not their own class. ‘Plenty of public school educated right-wingers’ ‘Farage only appeals to a poorly educated subset.
To quote Mike Skinner.....
Dry your eyes mate......
Beth Rigby debate:
Starmer talking absolute shite on the electricity companies.
GB Energy....totally debunked but he'll still repeat it will reduce energy costs.
Larger government just means more control over the people and an oppressive regime. But you all know better than the plebs so I am sure you feel comfortable with running (ruining) their lives. We already live in a system where democracy has been hollowed out by Blair and sovereignty handed to unelected left leaning QUANGOS. Again I have no doubt the socialists and control freaks in the STW forum are more than happy that their superior middle management intellect is governing the masses.
Why would I need to dry my eyes? I'm not your mate.
I’m not your mate.
You're never likely to be mine either tbf.
Why would I need to be emotional about it? It doesn't surprise me that you view this as an emotional battle more about inflicting cost/revenge than about doing anything of real value. It just seems that the STW forum is an orgy of middle class feeble conformity. Not really a place of robust, honest, good faith, open, productive debate. Again, a back patting hierarchy more than anything else. I am not sure that is a healthy space to truly explore ideas.
It just seems that the STW forum is an orgy of middle class feeble conformity. Not really a place of robust, honest, good faith, open, productive debate. Again, a back patting hierarchy more than anything else. I am not sure that is a healthy space to truly explore ideas.
You know you don’t have to be here, right?
Stepped away for a couple of hours cos work.....and came across this which is some interesting context/background
Larger government just means more control over the people
Rich people need controlling because otherwise they **** everyone else over. That's what used to happen in Victorian times then people gradually realised that rich ****s need reining in and things improved for everyone. That's why there are builders and mechanics on here with decent bikes and the spare time to ride them. Tory voters seem to want to roll all that back under the assumption that they can become one of the chosen wealthy ones.
Why would I need to be emotional about it?
You seem het up. There's a risk that your face will go even redder.
Nick Robinson is absolutely skewering Jim Swinney on TV at the moment.
Who the hell is Jim Swinney?
That's a fair cop. In reality I have a mate who looks just like him, who happens to be called Jim. Although to be fair he's not the First Minister so I really shouldn't make that mistake.
I am not sure that is a healthy space to truly explore ideas.
Have you tried your local pub instead? I’m sure there’s a willing audience just waiting to hear your views on what’s wrong with the world. In fact have a chat with binners, he knows a great one.
I think doggermatic is one of those insufferable COVID trolls with a new laptop
It just seems that the STW forum is an orgy of middle class feeble conformity.
Not all of us, some of us are social housing plebs who've never earned more than minimum wage plumped up with tax credits/on lifelong disability benefits but that doesn't negate a good piss taking every now and again.
Hahahaha genuinely in stitches at @theotherjonv (and I'm a post growther, sympathetic to MMT) 😂😂😂
Dogmatix you are a joy.
I am not sure that is a healthy space to truly explore ideas.
No one forces you to post or even read. 🤷♂️
I don't like musicals. I choose not to go to them. I don't slag musicals off for the sake of it, though.
"dogmatixFull Member
Single Track World an arrogant, back slapping, left wing, echo chamber. Equally adept at smearing the upper-classes and the underclass but not their own class. ‘Plenty of public school educated right-wingers’ ‘Farage only appeals to a poorly educated subset.’"
Username checks out.
dogmatix
Full Member
Why would I need to be emotional about it? It doesn’t surprise me that you view this as an emotional battle more about inflicting cost/revenge than about doing anything of real value. It just seems that the STW forum is an orgy of middle class feeble conformity. Not really a place of robust, honest, good faith, open, productive debate. Again, a back patting hierarchy more than anything else. I am not sure that is a healthy space to truly explore ideas.
You've got some gaul coming on here
Are they ancient French?
That’s a fair cop. In reality I have a mate who looks just like him, who happens to be called Jim. Although to be fair he’s not the First Minister so I really shouldn’t make that mistake.
Is your mate available on July 5th?
Why is everyone feeding the dog? He's so clearly a wind up merchant
We already live in a system where democracy has been hollowed out by Blair and sovereignty handed to unelected left leaning QUANGOS.
Well how have the Tories allowed that to continue for the past 14 years? Shouldn't they have done something about it?
I missed the debate. How did Starmer/Sunak compare, guys?
Tell me you live in southern & central England without telling me you live in southern and central England.
72% of the English population lives in southern and central England, so...yeah...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_England
Besides, it is actually verifiably, objectively true that the secondary education system in England is better than those in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Sunak has actually managed to say something true for once!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67580173
So the question remains if the Tories are going to lose the general election because they aren’t right-wing enough why is it Labour which is expected to win a landslide not Reform UK?
I'm saying they're losing a lot of votes because despite their rhetoric they haven't actually achieved anything that's usually be considered desirable by the right. Even with their culture wars bullshit they've not actually changed anything even though they've been in power. Some of those who desire that will move to reform, but many more will view them as a completely wasted vote run by a charlatan who is only good at destroying. They want traditional right of centre Tory policies delivered competently. I think a swing to positions to the right of what they've been saying will destroy them but that doesn't change the fact that due to their incompetence they aren't viewed as being true conservatives. Have a look a right wing UK twitter, it's interesting to see how some of them think.
Our elections are now largely influenced by voter turn out rather than swing voters. The Tories barely got any more votes in 2019 than 2016 but had a resounding majority because the labour vote collapsed. I suspect the opposite will happen for Labour this time. Take the recent Blackpool byelection. Labour went from 12557 to 10825 but the Tories collapsed from 16247 to 3218.Very few traditional Tories will vote Labour this time but Starmer is so bland he doesn't scare them in to actually voting for a useless Tory party unlike Corbyn did.
The picture of Craig Williams ITV used on the news, that's proper peak Tory right there isn't it?
Well my bike ride was lovely
How was the debate? yougov says 64 - 36 to Starmer, which means Sunak must have been dire
That picture could have come from an ai request for a typical tory
That pic just screams “I’m considerably richer than you” in a “fast show style
The picture of Craig Williams ITV used on the news, that’s proper peak Tory right there isn’t it?
Mr Ed wants his teeth back
From that photo I reckon that Craig Williams managed to get the smug look better than Harry Enfield.
Some else remembers Mr Ed??
Besides, it is actually verifiably, objectively true that the secondary education system in England is better than those in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Sunak has actually managed to say something true for once!
According to the pisa rankings England did better than the other nations, not everyone would agree that pisa rankings are a verifiable objective measure of performance but even if you do, they are a measure of the output not of the system. It’s entirely possible that if you took the same students and put them through the Scottish of Welsh systems they would have done even better and Jocks and Taffs are just thick! Of course it’s also possible, when you look at who’s at the top of the table and the cultures that go with that - that countries further down the table have a different educational culture that is not about churning out drones who feel under massive parental pressure to perform.