" he’s had chances to ditch Rayner"
Lol! he tried but failed spectacularly. She's one tough cookie and hopefully will keep labour real (see Diane Abbott situation). Starmer isn't her puppet as the Cons would have voters believe but he has underestimated her before - hopefully he will keep her onside as she has a lot to give.
The main problem we’ve had with the Tory Party (well… one of them, at least) is that since Boris took over he got rid of anyone with anything between their ears, then surrounded himself with thick-as-mince Brexiteer nodding dogs that wouldn’t threaten him. All so he literally got to act like a dictator (hence the proroguing of parliament etc). Truss then Rishi has been more of the same
Much as those on the left like to accuse Starmer of purges, Diane Abbot will still be MP for Hackney, Rayner will still be deputy PM and there’s a front bench of people who are there on merit and look like they could probably locate their own arse, unlike the Tory cabinets of recent vintage
I totally agree with you @winston that people underestimate Angela Rayner at their peril. I think Starmer has learnt that lesson. The Tories are all absolutely terrified of her! She’s everything they’re not. Here’s hoping she has a big influence on policy
Speaking of thick as mince brexiteers....
Andrea Jenkyns has been arguing with her one time friend and Russian stooge Aaron Banks about why she won't defect to Reform
Oh and she's also one of our Tory MPs, Andrea Jenkyns, Marco Longhi, Brendan Clarke-Smith and Karl McCartney, each receive £5,000 for backing far right Reclaim’s key pledges…. That surely means they must lose the whip?
Meanwhile
Sunak cancelling all media interviews today trying to figure out how he can quit as PM? , but because he's locked in as candidate for his constituency he can't even announce he will stand down as an MP after the GE otherwise his MPs will be even more furious!
It's possible we could have the odious dick Holden or even Cameron as caretaker PM by this time next week?
"Cameron as caretaker PM"
I'd actually put money on that, mad as it sounds.
For those forumites of a certain age, remember Dallas?
You could have a whole Bobby Ewing in the shower moment here.
I think Cameron as caretaker PM and caretaker LOTO is a possibility.
Bottle of scotch and a metaphorical revolver time for Sunak
https://twitter.com/mcgregormt/status/1799516879993639375?t=CR4RvnKP72XNu0jglmlkxQ&s=19
Also remarkable story about Gavin Williamson- he struck a deal with the Reform candidate in his constituency who has just announced he's standing down to join the tories, God knows what kompromat he must have on the guy!
ratherbeintobago
Full Member
I think Cameron as caretaker PM and caretaker LOTO is a possibility.
Literally, "back to square one."
I think Cameron as caretaker PM
I don't think he's allowed in the House of Commons, so couldn't do PMQT.
Gavin Williamson to lead the Tories into the election?
strong and stable
Have v the wheels ever fallen off like this in an election campaign before?
Have v the wheels ever fallen off like this in an election campaign before?
Theresa Mays implosion was pretty spectacular
"Have v the wheels ever fallen off like this in an election campaign before?"
No,previous prime ministers have been deluded, BUT competent!
I have a friend who did a complete career change and moved into a care role. Not sure what it is exactly but it seems to involve helping people with autism, severe learning disabilities etc integrate into everyday society. She takes them shopping etc.
Since taking the job she’s switched to voting Tory “because of all the benefits these people get” and she’s sure the Tories will cut back on them.
She works with these people, has more insight than most as to all the struggles they have and actively wants to make things harder for them? Christ, that's bleak. Dark.
kimbers
Full Member
Have v the wheels ever fallen off like this in an election campaign before?
The thing is, relatively speaking, it's pretty easy to organise a *competent* election campaign... Even if you lose it because sometimes you just can't win.
Now compare that task to running a whole country... I think it's fair to say we still don't really know the turmoil Number 10 has been in for years and probably won't really know it all till a good few books have been written by insiders after the Tories are removed.
I think there is going to be some truly terrible revelations to come about how criminally badly the country has been governed.
That’s the thing, isn’t it? No matter how much many of us lack enthusiasm for a Starmer-led Lab government, and no matter how much Lab is constrained by the financial position, at least the shadow front bench (with the exception of that wee nyaff Streeting) come across as grown ups, and competent government will improve matters.
On Call me Dave…
I don’t think he’s allowed in the House of Commons, so couldn’t do PMQT.
Isn’t the convention that a lord wishing to be PM has to resign from the Lords and a government MP resigns so he can have a run for election in a (safe) seat in the Commons? I think he should go for it.
I don’t think he’s allowed in the House of Commons, so couldn’t do PMQT.
I think only the King is not allowed into the House of Commons, hence the nonsensical drama when Black Rod has the door slammed in his face.
Although I don't think that prime minister's questions is an indispensable part of government. Certainly lords have previously served as prime ministers, I think the last one was Alec Douglas-Home.
I think there’s a big difference between substantive and interim PM (and the PMQs issue doesn’t apply for the time being as Parliament has been dissolved). The convention is that since 1902 no PM has sat in the Lords, but if the wee man commits political seppuku then they’ll need someone to hold the fort, and frankly they’re a bit short of grown-ups.
Certainly would be possible for Cameron to be LOTO from the Lords, AFAIK
Excellent article in the Times about the dday farce and how Starmer (and Lammy) pout manouvered sunak
If the Tories are going to have a leader in the Lords I really think nobody could do zero detail focus, grasping opportunism without scruple at every opportunity, and maximum dark comedy potential like Baron Frost could.
For the first time I really don't know who I should vote for.
As for domestic policy, economy etc, the two main parties are not very far apart so for me that is nothing to choose.
My vote is for a party that can come up with sensible foreign policy but most parties are in the "pocket of influencers" (that's the lobbyists for me). They support war in Israel-Palestine and/or Ukraine-Russia or both.
The current world economy is actually greatly affected by the wars but most just refuse to acknowledge it. If the war is not stopped then no matter what policy there is nothing will change and the economy will just worsen.
Tories & Labour both support wars (they say that without blinking), although soften their stance after realising they "talked too much" and may affect their votes and support.
Reform party is feeling the Ukraine-Russia war fatigue but oppose to protesters protesting on Israel-Palestine war. Farage is having too many pints I think.
Jeremy Corbyn and George Galloway are more consistent with their views of opposing all the wars but they are not around my way, otherwise I would vote for either one of them.
Helping Ukraine defend itself isn't supporting war.
Starmer (and Lammy) pout manouvered sunak
We will know soon enough but I consider Lammy to be potentially quite dangerous for the next Labour government. IMO he is a gaffe-prone loose cannonball. I am not sure what the idea behind making him Foreign Secretary is.
I think only the King is not allowed into the House of Commons, hence the nonsensical drama when Black Rod has the door slammed in his face.
Correct, Lords are allowed in but cannot 'serve' (I think that means be an MP and therefore may not participate in debates in the HoC chamber) So defeats the object. But, there are other chambers such as Westminster Hall, not sure if the same applies there - they can hold sessions in all sorts of places and effectively have questions to the PM somewhere else outside of the normal* way of doing things if they wanted. What happens now is changeable, as it has been in the past.
Although I don’t think that prime minister’s questions is an indispensable part of government. Certainly lords have previously served as prime ministers, I think the last one was Alec Douglas-Home.
He resigned his peerage to be PM, last genuine Lord as PM was early 1900's (IANAE, just googled that)
* PMQs itself is modern; you could always ask questions of the PM and then for organisational convenience they moved to end of each day, then to 2x15min sessions per week (that was early 60's) and then Blair moved to 1x30. So moving it to another chamber to accomodate a Lord as PM would hardly be chucking away hundereds of years of convention, more like 25.
It's become a key part of the weekly life of Parliament but really little business is done there and the knock about braying nature is getting worse. It also links to the increasingly presidential nature of the PM, really the works should be at the various key office questions - Treasury, Home Sec, etc. but when they can't find anyone half statesmanlike to fill these roles that also becomes a farce.
Jeremy Corbyn and George Galloway are more consistent with their views of
… supporting Putins Russia, Colonel Gadaffi, Sadaam Hussain, the mad clerics in Iran and all it’s associated terrorist proxies
FTFY
Theresa Mays implosion was pretty spectacular
In legend yes.
However in reality the increase in votes compared to the previous election was pretty impressive. As opposed to looking at Johnson for example. His "vote winning" isnt that great when you look at numbers vs percentages.
Certainly lords have previously served as prime ministers, I think the last one was Alec Douglas-Home.
For less than a month with him before he gave up his title and won a byelection. The fancy footwork to allow this to go through shows it wasnt really acceptable at that point for a lord to be pm.
I think it is safe to say that the 1910 punchup between the liberal mps and the lords handed power decisively to the HoC and after that it was effectively a requirement to be an mp.
supporting Putins Russia, Colonel Gadaffi, Sadaam Hussain, the mad clerics in Iran and all it’s associated terrorist proxies
FTFY
Yeah I read that in the Daily Mail too. What's wrong with chewkw FFS?
Maybe he's been reading stuff by Peter Osborne?💡
Edit : Click on the link, it works fine.
https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/jeremy-corbyn-was-right-about-putin-from-the-start/
For less than a month with him before he gave up his title and won a byelection.
How long does David Cameron need to be Prime Minister for?
kimbers
Full Member
Excellent article in the Times about the dday farce and how Starmer (and Lammy) pout manouvered sunakhttps://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/infighting-on-the-beaches-behind-the-scenes-of-the-d-day-debacle-6rlvt8nr6/blockquote >
That was an excellent read. Would actually make quite a compelling TV one off drama, "How the Election was Lost" or whatever.I'm heartened to see Labour being politically savvy and the description of how Sunak was outplayed is a good example of how doing the right thing is also the politically intelligent thing to do as well.
Further down the article it touches on the debates and as I said, Rayner had to go after Mordaunt over the tax fib. Rayner was told to act more statesman like before the debate but I just don't see how that is viable when you are in a pit of vipers.
"Suspended social media campaigning because there is no money"
Donors not doning because they can see there will be no return on their investment.
With all the money that's been funneled to cronies etc., there's plenty of money out there ready for when the opportunity presents itself - watch out 2029 ish.
She works with these people, has more insight than most as to all the struggles they have and actively wants to make things harder for them? Christ, that’s bleak. Dark.
There was a TV interview with an elderly couple who were on their way to the food bank in their deprived & run-down town centre who were saying how much they were looking forward to voting Tory cos they (the Tories) have "always supported the food bank".
And since this couple relied on the food bank, they saw it as the Tories looking after them. 🤯
Literally turkeys voting for Christmas. Most people are too stupid to be allowed to vote.
How long does David Cameron need to be Prime Minister for?
Leaving aside what ****up Sunak does next which might mean its a few weeks I would say the same rule applies for leader of the opposition.
So unless its a temporary post whilst a leadership election is held I would expect it to be a case of standing for byelection immediately.
Weird thing about Sunak blobbing from Normandy is that even more disrespectfully the Orange Shitgibbon alledgedly* suggested dead US combatants were losers for fighting and then dying. Yet in the heavily militaristic US voting base it apparently did him no real harm. 🤷
I’m absolutely loving this Tory implosion though.
* https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/10/04/donald-trump-call-troops-suckers-losers/
Sounds a lot like Stockholm syndrome.
Mad stuff. I might post an anecdote tomorrow if I can be bothered about a Reform voting friend/ neighbour and his recent (bizarre, on his part) interaction with the NHS.
scuttler
Full Member
Weird thing about Sunak blobbing from Normandy is that even more disrespectfully the Orange Shitgibbon suggested dead US combatants were losers for fighting and then dying. Yet in the heavily militaristic US voting base it apparently did him no real harm. 🤷I’m absolutely loving this Tory implosion though.
Whilst I agree that it did amazingly (appalling really) little damage overall, I think it played a part in why he lost Arizona from memory?
I can't stand Sunak but Trump is next level horrible.
"How long does David Cameron need to be Prime Minister for?"
Absolutely no ****ing time whatsoever.
supporting Putins Russia, Colonel Gadaffi, Sadaam Hussain, the mad clerics in Iran and all it’s associated terrorist proxies
FTFY
Yeah I read that in the Daily Mail too. What’s wrong with chewkw FFS?
Maybe he’s been reading stuff by Peter Osborne?💡
Edit : Click on the link, it works fine.
I guess you can call that opposing the Western colonisation.
How long does David Cameron need to be Prime Minister for?
That's a dangerous bloke who can speak without blinking when asked about Israel-Palestine conflict. He is just towing the line of his pay master or puppet master. I bet when he speaks his mind is fixated on the digits of his bank account increasing.
Absolutely no **** time whatsoever.
He is slowly creeping back and I bet he will be the Tories leader again after this election. If he is back as Tories leader, Starmer will have a handful as PM which may only last for one term. This bug eye bloke can spin and talk and is dangerous bloke to be PM when the world is edging towards a major war. This bug eye bloke will just quicken the prospect.
He (Cameron) is slowly creeping back and I bet he will be the Tories leader again after this election.
Even if it did happen, he won't be there for long, he knows the lunatics have the keys to the asylum.
Even if it did happen, he won’t be there for long, he knows the lunatics have the keys to the asylum.
Don't underestimate a desperate political party coz they have no one currently capable of leading their party. Even Penny Mordaunt is incapable of reviving them. Bear in mind, he was only out as PM because of one mistake on Brexit. He was flying high until Brexit.
He is just towing the line of his pay master or puppet master.
Who's feeding you your lines though, Mr Kettle?
AND IT'S TOEING THE LINE!!
Who’s feeding you your lines though, Mr Kettle?
AND IT’S TOEING THE LINE!!
It's my observation. Nobody is feeding me lines.
Yes, 'toeing' not "towing" ... aarrrghhh ...
Don’t underestimate a desperate political party coz they have no one currently capable of leading their party. Even Penny Mordaunt is incapable of reviving them. Bear in mind, he was only out as PM because of one mistake on Brexit. He was flying high until Brexit.
The party he once lead has gone. It'll be a miracle if the tory party doesn't continue it's lurch to the right.
I've no idea on the current Tory party rules but if the choice goes back to card carrying members again the further lurch to the right is absolutely certain.
Time will tell.
... further lurch to the right is absolutely certain.
I think they know the risk of moving further right will only alienate themselves with their already weaken position. Further right is already occupied. I bet they will move as close as possible to "Labour" to blur the line.
I think they know the risk of moving further right will only alienate themselves with their already weaken position. Further right is already occupied. I bet they will move as close as possible to “Labour” to blur the line.
The latest updated version of chewkw really does talk a lot of sense.
The latest updated version of chewkw really does talk a lot of sense.
November election for the State will be much more interesting.
You will see criminal vs "criminal" racing to the White House.
There's an racist dogwhistle being floated by some Sunak critics around the WW2 ceremony. For example: "it’s clear the prime minister does not grasp the hallowed place 6 June 1944 occupies in the island story of this nation...if you’re on nodding terms with the recent political past, you know that Britons take this stuff extremely seriously." The clear implications is that Sunak isn't a real "Briton" and doesn't really "get" WW2 because...you know. Equally, wtf is the "island story of this nation"? Is that the version of history where we exclude everything the Brits did off Great Britain - and by implication people like Sunak?
It's very reminiscent of Corbyn saying British "Zionists" had "no sense of English irony" despite maybe having lived in the country all their lives. Because...you know.
Sunak is awful on his own terms. There's no excuse for using odious
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/07/rishi-sunaks-d-day-campaign-history
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45301548
Cameron being unable to attend PMQs as Interim PM doesn't really matter when Parliament has been dissolved, does it? It would be a different question if the Tories were expected to form a government and Parliament was sitting.
“Nothing will change because people keep betting on the same two horses” this is true, although FPTP means there are only ever two horses
Apart from the SNP and UKIP and Reform and Plaid Cymru and all the Northern Irish parties? And apart from the PR systems in Northern Ireland and Wales and London and Scotland?
And then he goes and blows it...
...all by saying something stupid like "I love stew"?
You will see criminal vs “criminal” racing to the White House.
And then he goes and blows it
I don't think he has. I think he is right - the US presidential election will be interesting.
The outcome is far from certain although it should be of course - the Republican candidate will be a convicted criminal.
However his Democrat opponent is accused, by many Democrats themselves, of supporting a criminal regime.
With the latest evidence of that being Biden's support for sanctions against the International Criminal Court for attempting to enforce international law.
So his success is far from certain:
https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4707780-707780-biden-israel-support-lose-2024-election/
And referred to Brexit as a mistake. Same user name, but can’t be the same individual. Chewkw was a Brexy fanboy.
Still is, but just rather disappointed with the British political leadership after that. I thought the British govt could do things better than their EU counterparts but it seems like British govt is stuck in 2nd gear ever since.
But if UK rejoin EU will that make any difference? I doubt it. Probably still stuck in 2nd gear but perhaps needing a push this time.
There’s an racist dogwhistle being floated by some Sunak critics around the WW2 ceremony. For example
The Times article implied it was a different kind of xenophobia: because the French were organising it they didn't think it was worth sticking around for, absolute madness, but there you go!
What's nuts is that (assuming Sunak can't find a way to back out) they'll try another relaunch next week with ever mote batshit policies
I have no sympathy at all here but it must be a pretty grim work environment within CCHQ and no.10 itself these days. Almost "The Fall" like without actual carnage of course.
Any real suffering has not been applied to the Tory party obviously, that's been picked up by the populous.
I don't think I'll ever forget the carnage these individuals have caused in this country. Knocking Sunak will walk away from this with absolutely no repercussions particularly annoys me.
It's daft to think that the pain will end with a change of government too, as pro Labour as I am, it's going to be, what, a decade before things stabilise of that ever do?
Hell, 5 years from now we could have another Tory government headed by Farage.
Jezus...
The Times article implied it was a different kind of xenophobia: because the French were organising it they didn’t think it was worth sticking around for, absolute madness, but there you go!
Indeed. It seems to be Sunaks well-known anti-EU sentiment that drove his decision not to attend the ‘French’ ceremony
It’s also worth noting that absolutely nobody had suggested missing it. The decision was 100% down to him. It was totally his call. There were no other pre-arranged calls either. The ITV interview hadn’t even been set up at the point where he said he wasn’t attending. He offered that date and time to ITV as as far as he was concerned that was a gap in his diary with nothing in particular on.
In the same way a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day, Farage was right when he said that Sunak just simply couldn’t be bothered to attend the ceremony. Unfortunately for the Tories, that’s just the sad truth of the matter
It should be pretty easy....make the correct noises about re-building 'bridges' with the EU, job jobbed.
What (or who?) are the stoppers?
...rhetorical question, no need to answer...
I bet they will move as close as possible to “Labour” to blur the line.
But that position is already occupied as well, why vote for a centre left Tory when you can have the real thing? It's clear that the July date for the election was chosen to destabilise Reform, who the Tories see as their main competitor, some on the Tory right want to invite Frarage to be a Tory MP when [not if, they think] he becomes MP in Clacton.
Almost “The Fall” like without actual carnage of course.
If it's Rishi and your granny as Chancellor then it's still the tories?
Could end up like that on current seat prediction trend.....
On a road ride around South Cambridgeshire yesterday I saw no Conservative election stuff. Nothing. I can’t remember that from any previous general election.
Our village Tory fanboi usually has Vote Conservative billboards up on the edge of his private woodland by the road. Nothing this time. I was going to get busy with some water bombs, poster paint and a late night walk if he did. This time, nothing. Not a peep. Good.
Sunak is doubling down on the £2k tax thing too. As well as the D-Day being 'too French' angle. My god, he really is cocooned in a golden cage. He has no idea what normal people think. He can't even get the politics right within his own party.
If his advisers are trying to lose the election to be rid of him, they couldn't have an easier task.
They're not deliberately trying to lose, they're just 24 and immensely arrogant
The clear implications is that Sunak isn’t a real “Briton” and doesn’t really “get” WW2
Which not only shows a those pushing this line for the racists they are, but as historical ignoramuses.
There were hundreds of thousands of Indians under arms for the British during both World Wars.
Just because these lunkheads think it all happened within a few hours of the white cliffs of Dover.
Operation U-go? The Chindits? Nope utter ignorance.
Sadly I suspect the Farage-curious side of the electorate will lap it up for all the above reasons.
I think that what grates most of all, when he apologized using "I went to the British...." for **** sake it was an Allied Operation you ****ing halfwit! And then not to go to Omaha beach event was so disrespectful, All those young US soldiers who died it was even their fight!
I suspect that the polls and seat projections are now so Labour biased that there will be difficulty getting the potential Labour voter into the polling booth. They will see it as a foregone conclusion.
As a result the Tories and Farage types will sadly do rather better than expected.
If the Tory types are too despondent to vote Farage might have a surprisingly good night.
Make sure everyone votes people.
Make sure everyone votes people.
I voted an hour ago, European elections
He is slowly creeping back and I bet he will be the Tories leader again after this election.
he can’t. They’d need to change the party rules - or take the massive gambles of dropping the Lords, finding an MP in a safe seat to sacrifice it for him, winning that seat, then actually winning the election battle…. I think there’s more chance of him forming a breakaway of “one nation conservatives” to leave the right wing to fight amongst themselves - and that’s a very small chance.
the next leader will be one of Mordaunt, Baddenoch, Braverman, Hunt, Patel or Shapps. I’ve not even checked who is still standing and of course they have the small hurdle of getting reelected. Remember the MPs first have to select their candidate(s) before the membership gets a choice. The number and variety of MPs will be very different - and with different priorities from the current mob.
from humiliation to annihilation, what could a post election tory party look like? A few different scenarios but a split is definitely not beyond the realms according to some commentators, and if that happens could be asking who are the next leaders - one a far right, alliance or merger with Reform and another trying to regain the centre right party of middle class business owning Britain.
Comfortable well off retirement from politics is all that’s on the cards for Cameron. He’ll be building up a reputation as a reliable voice once we’re far enough away from the shit of the last decade. People have short memories, and he has the right accent.
Which not only shows a those pushing this line for the racists they are, but as historical ignoramuses.
There were hundreds of thousands of Indians under arms for the British during both World Wars.
Indeed. Which means that Sunaks decision to scarper ASAP once the ‘British’ dead had been honoured means that he’s managed to insult a very broad range of countries, nationalities and communities.
Whichever way you look at it, it’s a mind-bogglingly stupid decision and the more you analyse it the worse it gets.
The decision to then issue a typically terse and tetchy, sorry/not sorry non-apology, then go to ground and hide from any media scrutiny is just compounding things further. Does he honestly think this will just ‘blow over’?
He really is appallingly bad at making political choices
From humiliation to annihilation: could this election mean the end of the Tory party as we know it?
It died in June 2016 and was finished off by Johnson with his purge of Brexit non-believers. The question for the Tories isn’t about how many seats they retain, but who occupies those remaining seats. It’s going to be the old school ERG headbangers.
Any ‘moderates’ are already long gone. The less extreme (everythings relative, obviously) of the Brexit extremists will be next.
This will leave a hardcore of absolute loons! The proper ‘hang’em and flog’em’ nutters! Led by Badanoch or Braverman, who they’ll elect in a heartbeat once Rishi gets to California.
So the question then isn’t whether they will become as far right as Reform - that’s a given - but whether they’ll compete to out-do them by going even further right?
Johnson referred to Keir 'Schnorrer' (a yiddish term for scrounger or beggar) obviously alluding to his declared zionism, Jewish wife, Israeli social media man, LFI appointees etc. Surprised this hasn't been picked up much in the press but then again he's a Tory. Can you imagine if Corbyn etc etc etc.
I think it’s quite funny that Johnson, like a small child desperate for attention, wrote that article to be deliberately provocative and stir things up but it’s been collectively ignored by pretty much everyone.
Thats really going to hurt the old narcissist. The horrible realisation that he’s completely irrelevant and in this election campaign nobody cares what he has to say
The Times article implied it was a different kind of xenophobia: because the French were organising it they didn’t think it was worth sticking around for, absolute madness, but there you go!
it’s interesting, I’m not a WW2 historian and don’t get anywhere near as emotional about d-day as many in this country do, so if Rishi had called and asked me, I’d probably have said he didn’t need to go - after all Charles was there for the flag fanatics! But if he’d called me (and was paying for my expert advice) to say he has an opportunity to be seen standing shoulder to shoulder with Biden and Macron and she he maximise that during election time - I’d have said absolutely, Starmer doesn’t have the opportunity and standing next to those two makes you look prime-ministerial. So clearly poorly advised!
Should it be the thing that causes his downfall? 100% no. But I’m entertained by the idea that those who think Rwanda is a good plan even if it punishes people fleeing wars and Human Rights that were fought for and enshrined in law to try to stop rogue states abusing their populations are a nonsense etc BUT his priorities for d-day commemorations were not quite respectful enough and now he must go!