The issue with sexual assaults and Uber is not that Uber drivers are "rapey" (does that mean they are rapists? Not quite rapists?), nor that you could trust any black cab driver with your wife or servant, but that Uber, when challenged on a number of cases, said that any passenger/customer who experienced an assault needed to report it to the police and it wasn't their job (Uber's) to take action.
The criticism is that Uber were shirking some responsibility, although ultimately it is a police matter.
However the model is still valid
Is it? They trade (In London at least) by being cheaper, and if TfL are to believed they're cheaper because they're cutting corners that may ultimately lead to their drivers and passengers being less safe. If you put back in all the costs that are part of operating costs that all other regulated taxi services have to bear; does the model still make sense?
Black Cabs are an outdated business model in every way.
Black cabs seem intent on bemoaning the uber model rather than asking why people like it so much and reforming their offering to meet uber head on .
I live too far away to use uber around home but used it extensively in rome this year and it was superb.
Maybe that's because the London cabbies are a bit less... you know... 'rapey'
Bad, Binners! In your corner!
I've used uber far more than I've used black cabs in the last couple of years. Black cabs are a rip off I don't care that they've done the knowledge we've got gps now or that they have to use a car with such a crap design it's not used in any other country. They are an anachronism, a pita to cyclists and not representative of the ethnic diversity of London.
@atlaz I use minicabs for longer journeys too - a mini can you can book hours or weeks in advance.
The Government is looking at the GIG economy and quite rightly, its a huge swerve around tax and workers rights legislation. It’s not a surprise they are cheaper
The Greyball affair illustrates not only Uber's morality, but also the vulnerability of regulatory organisations to being spoofed. That they went to the lengths they did to identify government employees and, in cities where Uber wasn't licensed, effectively hide the service in plain sight.
It's difficult to see an alternative though- Kimber's rose tinted view of the unlicenced minicab days jars with the experience of a lot of women who had the worst ride of their lives (no pun intended), and Addison Lee seems to employ tactics nearly as dodgy as Uber to win new business.
The drivers though are an interim hassle to Uber- when the technology catches up with their real business model there'll be no need to worry about rapes, minimum wage and income tax, and we'll all be on an Uber subscription service. Oh, and most of those 40000 drivers will be unemployed.
Black cabs are a rip off I don't care that they've done the knowledge we've got gps now or that they have to use a car with such a crap design it's not used in any other country
But the Knowledge doesn't just get you from A to B ... like a sat nav does... its how you get from A to B ... the most direct route isnt always the fastest and a good cabbie will use this to his customers advantage.
As for design of car ... its brilliant... 5 not 3 or 4 in comfort, wheel chair accessible and can turn on a six pence.
My pals a cabbie and he's been pretty pragmatic about the rise of Uber. He thinks the public will realise that they are two different services ... with a black cabbie offering more quality.
But the Knowledge doesn't just get you from A to B ... like a sat nav does... its how you get from A to B ... the most direct route isnt always the fastest and a good cabbie will use this to his customers advantage.
Waze, among others, matches (and probably beats) a Black Cab's knowledge.
a good cabbie will use this to his customers advantage.
Alternatively a lot of cabbies will use their route knowledge to fleece their customers.
The Government is looking at the GIG economy and quite rightly, its a huge swerve around tax and workers rights
I work with uber in Cardiff, all my earnings are paid directly into a bank account. There's no hiding it, unlike with traditional taxi work were you could more or less invent your income.
Uber lost £2.8bl last year 😯 I doubt they'll be paying tax for a while yet.
regulations leads to increased consumer costs.
True, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have it. Regulation can lead to a lot of improvements such as around safety.
But the Knowledge doesn't just get you from A to B ... like a sat nav does... its how you get from A to B ... the most direct route isnt always the fastest and a good cabbie will use this to his customers advantage.As for design of car ... its brilliant... 5 not 3 or 4 in comfort, wheel chair accessible and can turn on a six pence.
My pals a cabbie and he's been pretty pragmatic about the rise of Uber. He thinks the public will realise that they are two different services ... with a black cabbie offering more quality.
The app on my phone tells me the journey time and alternative routes.
A cabbie who was in our club raved about how good and cheap the Mercedes alternative was and as I mentioned why aren't they used all over the world?
They are two different services but I'm not sure where the quality comes from in the black cab.
Well, once last year (this time last year actually)it cost me £78 to get back from Clerkenwell to Canary Wharf in the pissing down rain .. that was in a black cab. Ok, so the Limehouse tunnel was closed (it does sometimes) but still.. the Mrs was furious, me I CGAS because it was raining and it was my choice to use a cab..
Still expensive mind..
Annnnnd please don’t tell me to ride a bike or catch the tube, ta.
Uber lost £2.8bl last year 😯 I doubt they'll be paying tax for a while yet.
Of course they did. Like Amazon, Starbucks and Facebook don't make a profit either?
Using ludicrously complex, dodgy creative accountancy, and funnelling everything through opaque tax havens to say you made a loss, is very different thing from [i]actually[/i] making a loss
The trouble with some of these companies now, is the aim to increase share price is the primary goal, making an actual profit is down the list of priorities.
So companies like uber and netflix, can run huge losses and accrue incredible levels of debt, but still perform well according to the shareholders as the share price is going up. It is clearly a house of cards that must come crashing down.
And that is a different game to off-shoring ownership and having countries compete against each other for the honour of them not paying tax there. It is all ****ing crazy.
is very different thing from actually making a loss
I believe Uber actually are.
Those cheap prices are subsidised at the moment by the venture capital.
Of course if they do get dominant enough black cabs will seem a bargain.
So companies like uber and netflix, can run huge losses and accrue incredible levels of debt, but still perform well according to the shareholders as the share price is going up. It is clearly a house of cards that must come crashing down.
It works as long as rhere are sufficient shareholders (they generally don't have significant debt) believe they will make a profit one day or someone will buy them out. Amazon has made hardly any profits on a global basis, expansion is funded by shareholders and cashflow derived from mismatch between when they get paid and when they pay. This model just doesn't fit in a tax system - it is not avoidance at all.
Of course if they do get dominant enough black cabs will seem a bargain.
Not really, even if they wipe out black cabs and private hire drivers, if they use that position of dominance to gouge the market, the competition will just return and undercut them.
Using ludicrously complex, dodgy creative accountancy, and funnelling everything through opaque tax havens to say you made a loss, is very different thing fromactually making a loss
I love how you made that all up to serve your prejudice 😆 find me one bit of evidence that they actually do make a profit and I'll eat my uber hat. They certainty hope to make money in the future but not yet.
Terrible backwards-looking decision. Hopefully will be overturned on appeal, when Uber make some required changes.
Twodogs + 1.
A backwards step for London.
Terrible backwards-looking decision. Hopefully will be overturned on appeal, when Uber make some required changes.
Two different things. Overturning a decision on appeal, and making the changes or providing the information TFL ask for.
It doesn't even look like TFL are asking for very much, but Uber are just acting like they're above the need for regulation and compliance.
They're probabky busy as we speek fireing the unpaid intern who sent an "All your bases are belong to us" meme to TFL rather than whatever corperate procedures TFL had asked to see.
So companies like uber and netflix, can run huge losses and accrue incredible levels of debt, but still perform well according to the shareholders as the share price is going up. It is clearly a house of cards that must come crashing down.
45 Degree comment ... with Netflix it's because of their huge investment in original content.
There's a reason they are cheap.....
Pay peanuts.....you get monkeys...
About time they lost their license - some of the worst drivers on the road!
45 Degree comment ... with Netflix is because of their huge investment in original content.
Potato Vs Potato
Its the same business model to increase its userbase untill it becomes profitable. Uber offer you a subsidised taxi, Netflix offer you Bojack Horseman.
Uber v black cabbies in terms of driving ability, dodginess being rapey are irrelevant - if you as a human being want to do any of these things no amount of checks will stop you
The question here is a basic principle of competition and ability to choose your mode of transport...
if governing bodies choose to take that away on technicalities that is wrong, plain and simple and I am disappointed in TfL and Mayor for letting it get this far.
I get the feeling this is more about the upcoming Labour conference - the tub thumping socialist making a point about big corporation, there will be an appeal and Uber will be granted a license - this is about making a point and to hell with the people...
Khan could well lose the next election and I for one won’t be voting for him again.
[url= http://www.businessinsider.com/uber-ban-is-a-disaster-for-london-2017-9?r=UK&IR=T ]interesting read...[/url]
@Twodogs yes interesting thanks
From the Taxi campaign
Together, we did it!
TfL today announced that they will NOT be relicensing unsafe Uber in London.
[b]Following numerous stories highlighting the unsafe practices of Uber, including the Met Police writing to TfL to say that Uber was failing to report crimes, the Mayor has finally made the right decision.[/b]
This unprecedented decision was only possible because 20,000 of you joined our campaign and emailed TfL to demand an end to Uber’s unsafe, unfair practices in our great city.
After months of pressure with thousands of you at the LTDA’s side, our voice was heard and the Mayor made the right decision by banning immoral Uber from our streets.
There's still a lot to be done, but let’s celebrate this excellent decision - please SHARE the good news today:
Once again thank you to Sadiq Kahn
I have no problem with Uber working like a mini cab company
Book weeks in advance
Fixed price - no surge
Fully uk based company
Fully compliant with mini cab regulations
TFL ask for.It doesn't even look like TFL are asking for very much, but Uber are just acting like they're above the need for regulation and compliance.
The bit I don't understand is that uber drivers in london have to have a London private hire liscense.
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-hire/licensing/private-hire-driver-licence
Transport London will have done all the criminal record checks and recieved the medical certificates before issuing a license. No license no driving with uber. I'm not sure what it is that Uber are withholding.
It'll probably need to go to court before all the details are made public.
I haven't used Uber in London, as thankfully I don't have to go there for work any more. I would rather use it than a black cab though.
We have Uber in Southampton - use it fairly consistently coming home from nights out. It's significantly cheaper than any taxi, even in peak times, quicker and just works. I have a couple of the big players Apps in town for backup but it's always a massive ballache to book one, wait longer & be charged more.
Maybe the standard of Uber driver is better here, cars are always nearly new Prius's & they can all drive fine 🙂
I hope they can appeal & reform, competition is good.
So, 20,000 joined the campaign to ban Uber....325,000 have already signed the petition to overturn the ban
Fully uk based company
I really don't see why this is relevant
Twodogs - Member
interesting read...
As someone who lives in what would now be classed as a London Suburb, for me this article pretty much hits the nail on the head. To add that my experience of Uber tends to be clean, polite, punctual, convenient and well priced. The one time I had a problem I got a refund in minutes and was able to offer feedback on the driver (as they can on me if I am a poor customer).
I don't disagree that Uber may need to up their game in terms of how they operate, however much of this seems to me that the established industry doesn't like a disruptor challenging its monopoly. If the industry can't evolve to offer a comparable or better product, then it will decline.
Hopefully the outcome will be better control/compliance, whilst giving the customer the choice they deserve.
We have had other threads on Uber and the ViceNews team and others inc BBC Newsnight have done pieces on them and their deplorable practices. As @mefty says this sort of business is designed not to fit in a tax system, thats one of it’s competitive advantages. Well sooner or later we will have to pay those taxes instead or accept fewer services
@razor Black Cabbies can’t choose their fares or their vehicle. If people think Black cabs are too expensive they can use a mini cab and/or lobby TfL to reduce fares.
There is absolutely nothing stopping these 40,000 drivers signing up for a mini cab firm from now on.
But they may not want to, as per that article..it's harder to choose their shifts, and can suffer the prejudices of a dispatcher.
Where I live black cabs don't drive past every 5 minutes. And I could call a mini cab, wait half an hour and hope they turn up, often in a dirty. Or I can get an uber, wait 5-10 mins, know what I will pay (definitely less than a mini cab), be able to see exactly where it is en route and not need cash to pay. Tough choice.
however much of this seems to me that the established industry doesn't like a disruptor challenging its monopoly.
This is exactly what this is about....lobbying by a group who are unfairly privileged
I really don't see why this is relevant
Tax mainly
If Uber are a taxi company they should play by taxi rules
If Uber are a mini cab company they should play by mini cab rules
They do neither
I see no reason you can’t have an app based mini cab dispatcher (re bias above)
I really don't see why this is relevant
Because ultimately by not paying tax (by hook or by crook is a different argument), they can undercut the competition.
The same way Starbucks get's an unfair advantage over your local independent coffee shop because they don't pay tax. Yes, the minicabs could all jump ship to the IoM, Netherlands or Caymans but it's not as easy for small businesses. Which is one of the reasons regulators like a "fit and proper" clause, the same stick is being used to beat Murdoch at the moment over the Sky/Fox merger.
Like it or not, until there is a global tax system (!), companies minimizing their tax burden is the way of the world today.
And it is irrelevant, because that's not why they've lost their license
If Uber are a mini cab company they should play by mini cab rules
But they do for the most part, at least im the Uk market. Where the problem might be coming from is their working ahead of legislation. Normally to operate in a town or city (private hire) you need a licensed driver and a licensed vehicle with calls coming through an operator licensed in that authority. It's perfectly legal for me as a Cardiff driver (conventional private hire driver) to take calls in London providing the customer calls our office in Cardiff. Uber has been using drivers licensed from authorities outside London in London. They have offices in these towns and due to the way the internet works ride bookings route through these.
It seems Uber is reluctant to share these out of town drivers details with transport London. I'm not sure why but it's nothing that more up to date legislation couldn't solve.
Taxi firstly I appreciate your input. Do you think it’s easier and/or cheaper to register / licence outside London ? My guess is yes, much
You can’t book an Uber an hour in advance never mind a week or two. I want to be able to know the fare in advance as per a normal mini-cab. These are two bery important features of mini cabs which Uber doe not follow.
@TwoDogs taxis are licenced, you can make it a condition of the licence they are based in the UK (well once we are out of the EU we can). I also think given the business model they should pay VAT too.
No doubt in my mind Uber are on a path to driverless cars (already testing that in some US cities where tellingly to ride one you must agree NOT to sue them in the event of an accident 😯 ). So at that point the 40,000 Uber drivers and most of the black cab drivers are claiming unemployment benefits.
