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I don't think there is any strict definition as to what constitutes "a" democracy rather than having a constitution that has elements which are democratic. Hence the (pointless) arguments.
I don’t think the claim is to the birthplace, more the extant examples. Which also doesn’t work.
Greece did invent democracy, but it died and and Greece was a monarchy well into the 20th century (Phil the Greek). The USA was the first nation of the modern era to have an elected head of state, which is still extant. Think about the way the world was run in 1789.
(Edit to add Haiti was close but a couple of years later.)
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Weirdly, the residents* of Washington DC don't have (full) representation in the US democracy, as their representatives in Congress don't actually have voting rights
(DC is not a state**...)
*~710,000 people, more than Virginia or Wyoming!
**I only just realized this after reading an article in today's NYTimes...
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Carry on...
Thanks. Their system of democracy doesn't even sound good, as mentioned previously about big countryside states having more weight per person than some more populace ones & run-offs, due to racial considerations. It seems like there's more to be ashamed of in such a system than there is to claim it is the worlds bestest, not that we in the UK can talk our system is fairly garbage. Maybe one day they'll change it'd be nice if the recent events would help drive it.
Their system of democracy doesn’t even sound good, as mentioned previously about big countryside states having more weight per person than some more populace ones & run-offs, due to racial considerations.
That's not even the biggest problem. They have massive societal and cultural problems and their media only exploits and perpetuates it for the sake of ad revenue.
That’s not even the biggest problem. They have massive societal and cultural problems and their media only exploits and perpetuates it for the sake of ad revenue.
I think there’s a lot of truth in that last line. I really think we are seeing the beginning of a realisation of the failure of capitalism. It’s not serving anyone but the elite few while America is becoming less powerful on the world stage. Meanwhile, China and Russia are rising.
It’s quite a fascinating time to be alive.
US did not have a full franchise for voting until the mid 60s.
True.
Democracy was founded in ancient greece which is where the word comes from.
Ancient Greece never had full franchise for voting, at any point in its history
Its just another example of US exceptionalism and ignorance to call it the oldest democracy
Depends on what you call democracy. Head of state and all representatives elected?
Greece played a huge part in what later democracies modelled themselves on but it was far from ideal.
Slavery was an integral part of ancient Greece.
However, for its time it was hugely progressive and deserves its place in humanities history.
I suspect what we perceive a democracy as being will be very different from now in 50 years time.
Chinese hyper capitalism combined with authoritarian rule could be dominant. Russia is basically a dictatorship, a mafia state and I don't see it competing with China economically or as a super power. Big plans but on a small budget, hence its use of cheap/effective hybrid warfare. It is in decline just in a very different way. Remove fossil fuels from their economy and they are in a mess.
Edit: As someone said, democracy in Greece was eventually extinguished. That seems very pertinent at the moment.
That 'no fly' clip is the sound of a manbaby finally having to face the consequences of one of his actions...
Reminds you of a certain alt-right slogan about '****ing around and finding out'. 🙂
"That’s not even the biggest problem. They have massive societal and cultural problems and their media only exploits and perpetuates it for the sake of ad revenue."
Unfortunately it is the problem and the reason you won't see an end to the problem in our lifetime. The Senate was set up the way it is in order to appease the ex slave owning states and the mid western states who'd hoped to become slave owning states and gutted that they wouldn't be able to.
It was done in order to bring the rebel states onside in the shadow of the civil war. It was done in the name of 'healing' the nation. Remember that the next time a politician uses the word 'healing.'
The Senate is quite literally white supremacy signed into law. A vote for a senator in Mississippi is worth a hundred and twenty votes cast in California for instance. So to say it is not the biggest problem seem quite strange to me.
If you were to say it's an underlying problem so massive that it will never be addressed, the best we can do is apply a few sticking plasters or paper over the cracks until it all blows up again sometime in the future then I'd agree with you. That is probably what's going to happen.
The Senate is less Democratic than our House of Lords. Our second house is made up of appointees by the sitting government, rather like the supreme court.
The Senate is the original sin of post civil war America. The Senate makes the vote of one person worth more than that of another. It's black and white.
Some commentary on stop the steal from an observer...
https://twitter.com/TerryBoutonHist/status/1348365375449268226?s=19
Kelvin - as Moley said - it depends how you count it.
Democracy was invented in Greece but as you point out it was not universal suffrage.
If you want it to be universal suffrage then US certainly was not first as it wasn't until the mid 60s UK was 1928
for me a democracy has fully elected head of state and legislature ( so not the UK) and universal suffrage so the US is not first either.
Finland would have a decent claim to have had the longest continuous democracy with universal suffrage depending how you see its time under Russian control but autonomous. Denmark would be next
Sorry to be technical about it, but democracy means that sovereign power rests with the people. It actually has nothing to do with how you elect a government. Sovereignty is about where legitimate political power is derived from.
Britain did not become a democracy until the Representation of the People Acts of 1918 and 1928 that gave the vote to all men and women over the age of 21.
If that's your criteria, then New Zealand would be the first democracy.
I think a better way to think about it is that's there's a continuum from less to more democratic. The U.S. adopted a form of democracy after the War of Independence, but it was somewhat limited and the 20th century saw it become much more democratic.
Britain had a limited form of democracy before the U.S., but it wasn't until the 19th century that countries generally started granting the vote to non property holders, so that's when democracy as we understand it really got started.
Don’t wish to derail this discussion on defining what democracy is but I saw this on Twitter and was suitably amused
https://twitter.com/webdevlaw/status/1347970600225148936?s=21
https://twitter.com/adegrandpre/status/1348453971057389569
https://twitter.com/GoadGatsby/status/1347653366529347584
That’s gonna hurt him bigly
Jesus H Christ.
The PGA is involved?
Ok I'm kidding because it is significant.
The backers, the complicit, the money, the establishment he is so fond of saying he is not part of (but is the worst of) is turning outs back on him.
One day changed everything.
Could one day, as yet unforeseen, change everything here too?
I hope so but not in the way it played out there.
I suspect there is no such national epiphany here for at least a few more years.
https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/1348466213987315712
https://twitter.com/dicklenhart/status/1348479633163841538
There's talk of the Dems impeaching but delaying proceedings for 3 months. I assume the deal will be put to Trump, resign now, else in 3 months you will lose all legal immunity and post presidential priveledge
The art of the deal eh?
The backers, the complicit, the money, the establishment he is so fond of saying he is not part of (but is the worst of) is turning outs back on him.
His behaviour as President was always a curse for his long-term business because he went out of his way to offend half the U.S. population and everyone else in the world. In the short term, he partly compensated for that with money from MAGA sycophants booking his hotels for conferences, but most of that money was bound to dry up the minute he left office. His brand is tainted with boorish behaviour, so most wealthy people won't want to be associated with it. That was before the coup attempt. Now, they can publicly disavow him instead of stealthily just keeping their distance. He'd be a fool to try and travel internationally because every ambitious lawyer in the world will be looking at ways to drag him into court and no foreign leader is going to treat him to any sort of official invitation and provide him with diplomatic immunity. He just doesn't have any friends left outside of the nutcase MAGA crew. The Republican Party politicians who are sucking up to him will only do that as long as they're scared of him. That is quickly draining away.
Dunno thols2, Saudi Arabia might offer him asylum. After all, that's where Idi Amin ended up seeing out his days. He could build a golf course, I've heard the bunkers will be uuuge.
The Military is more radicalised than we think. I remember Barack Obama visiting the troops in Iraq, and the look of horror on his face when he realised that fox news was the news channel the Army fed the troops. It was like fox news was forces news, stamped with the army's seal of approval.
We know the Police have been radicalized. I expect a lot of job vacancies coming up and a recruitment drive at the FBI.
It was done in the name of ‘healing’ the nation. Remember that the next time a politician uses the word ‘healing.’
That is usually the problem with "healing a nation" - the alternative at the time may be unpalatable, but the long term consequences may be just as bad.
Dunno thols2, Saudi Arabia might offer him asylum.
Yeah, I'm starting to think he might really end up hiding in Russia or the Middle-East rather than face the consequences. Once his lackeys start to turn on him, the whole thing will collapse and everyone will rat everyone else out to try and avoid prison.
The tech clown shoes thing is a pretty basic and serious goof. They have little chance of migrating an at scale AWS setup to bare metal. Im still baffled that Cloudflare are happy with thedonald.win being a customer of theirs given the whole thing was literally planned there
There isn't even a sniff of a chance that the US alphabet agencies let a *President* flee to another country. Especially not a President that has shown himself willing and capable of acting against the USA's interests. The national security risk would be unthinkable.
There isn’t even a sniff of a chance that the US alphabet agencies let a *President* flee to another country.
Let's see if his passport gets revoked when the legal charges start rolling in. He has a private jet and international business, so easy to slip away under the pretext of a business trip.
Still not going to happen.
https://twitter.com/lachlan/status/1347662585999589382
https://twitter.com/DevinNunes/status/1326700669579882497
There isn’t even a sniff of a chance that the US alphabet agencies let a *President* flee to another country. Especially not a President that has shown himself willing and capable of acting against the USA’s interests. The national security risk would be unthinkable.
There are a lot of sycophants at all levels, the Donald appointed the top layer, and they in turn appointed the layer down etc Biden can clear out the top layer but their will be a lot of resistance and obstruction all down the chain IMO Remember when some local law clerks refused to process gay marriages, that sort of policy undermining is going to be going on in all government agencies for years IMO.
The secret service lent one of their senior agents to the Donald to run his campaign FFS. Comey, despite his denials and later being thrown under the bus for not being loyal enough, politicised his role and tipped the balance of the 2016 election.
I wouldn't rely on "the alphabet agencies" to come good any more than I would trust the GOP to do the right thing.
There isn’t even a sniff of a chance that the US alphabet agencies let a *President* flee to another country.
I mostly agree, but they would really have to revoke his passport if they wanted to be sure. He owns an international business and a private jet, so travelling abroad is normal for him. He will have a permanent Secret Service escort because he'll be an ex-President. In the U.S. or Nato countries, the Secret Service agents could call in help if he started doing anything suspicious, but in many other countries, they will be powerless to do anything if he decides to make a run for it. Which means that the U.S. government will need to prevent him leaving the U.S. if they have any suspicions about him. I do think it's highly unlikely to come to that, but it's no longer unthinkable.
On the bright side, he never paid any attention to classified briefings. He probably doesn't actually have much information to trade anyway.
He will have a permanent Secret Service escort because he’ll be an ex-President.
Not if he is impeached.
We can only hope.
https://twitter.com/IamNotSilus/status/1348545180752900098
https://twitter.com/IamNotSilus/status/1348564928341409793
Impeachment won't happen, still needs 2/3rds of senate need to vote for it
The Reps are still too beholden to trump's base for that
Hes too arrogant to resign, even with threat of impeachment in 3 months- which is more likely to succeed IF his reputation has been trashed enough that Reps aren't scared of him any more (still unlikely IMHO)
I'm genuinely amazed at how spineless the GOP have become, (but it's the same with the Tory party in the UK)
🙂 They've doxxed their own userbase!
The PGA of America has cut ties to Donald Trump
That's his business prestige all but extinguished.
Highly amusing re: geotagged photos on parler... oops.
^ that mistake by Parler could be very costly for some of the extremists and their buddies.