[Closed] Two crashes at Swinley yesterday

If callouts start happening at that rate then the gulley will be bulldozed 😮

It was a grim couple of hours, some dog walkers did come over and start going on about the risks of letting jumps remain, the least they could have done is wait till the young lad was taken away before getting on their soap box.

We explained that you could remove them but people would just build their own elsewhere.

I can see the landowners (FC?) getting twitchy if the air ambulance is having to attend that regularly.

and if people did build their own elsewhere it might limit numbers if they weren't as well known?

The problem is it is stupid to call an air ambulance out at that rate, is it not road accessible?

A normal ambulance was there for the first, it looked pretty serious so the air ambulance was called to get him out, I would presume with suspected spinal problems the bumpy ride through the forest is not ideal ??

Hmmm see this is the problem with putting a jumpy section deep in a forest, seems a bit odd design-wise for me. Same with the likes of llandegla, the first jumpy black bit you come to is about as far from the road as you could get. They always suspect a spinal injury, with good reason, so it basically means that pretty much any accident on a jump section is going to be air-lifted if it's not road accessible.

well, the 'jumps' at the gully are appaling. They dont work, are badly built and are just a bit crap really. Its not surprising people hurt themselves.

The problem is it is stupid to call an air ambulance out at that rate, is it not road accessible?

I'm sure there is a special air ambulance hotline..

well, the 'jumps' at the gully are appaling. They dont work, are badly built and are just a bit crap really. Its not surprising people hurt themselves.

???

2 nice small tabletops for beginners/mincers

The big tabletop which is quite small if you go right or big if you go left gives somethign to progress on

And the 'double' is just pronounced enough to ctch your wheel on and let you know you need to go faster/higher/further next time.

Then theres the bigger hip jimps off to one side, and all the drop offs.

I'd say as a set of jumps they border on ideal!

I'm sure there is a special air ambulance hotline..

Agreed thisisnotaspoon.

It was a joke inspired by the comment above about calling out the air ambulance for silly things and the sensible response about it being the choice of the emergency services not the caller. Oscar Wilde said "To be truly boring tell everything" and now I have become just that...

I would assume the emergency services take the decision to call our the air ambulance.

True, and a fair point, but I do wonder if they're over-eager?

Sorry - my tongee-in-cheek detector is failing today.
🙁

well, the 'jumps' at the gully are appaling. They dont work, are badly built and are just a bit crap really. Its not surprising people hurt themselves.

perhaps evidence of the decline of maths and physics in schools?

when yo call 999 you get the emergancy operator - who will call out the air ambulance according to parameters they have. They are not medically trainied in any way nor are they making a medical asseessment - but say head or spine injuries and away from the road and the air ambulance will appear needed or not.

Who knows if it was needed here? Certainly not us nor the telephone operator. Teh only person who can tell is a trained person at the scene.

I would bet 90% of the time it is not needed tho.

[i]the air ambulance will appear needed or not[/i]

a bit like the shopkeeper in Mr Ben then?

TJ - that's what I was attempting to get across but was somewhat less elloquent.

it's all here [url= http://www.daat.org/incidents-we-attend/ ]why not donate whilst learning about the devon air ambulance[/url]

My thoughts on that are compounded by the air-rescue-camera-action vids that are all over TV showign them turning up to someone who's slipped and fallen and broken an arm and is having a whinge on a hillside 500m from the road. I suppose they are edited to give a view rather than a documentary, but still seems they're often called out to stuff where people should MTFU. But I'm sure it's easy to say that from the comfort of your own chair.

Dude read the link....

Air Ambulance x2?

Seriously how far is this section from the nearest road?

Interesting stuff in that link toys

its spitting distance to fire roads, but a long walk with a stretcher

I think it kind of kicks any anger or offence people may have about calling the air ambulance into touch, the dispatchers call the shots. I imagine it must also be difficult to gauge the severity of an incident when reported by members of the public. I was once the first on the scene to a horriffic motorcycle accident and in a kind of british reserve panic described the bloke who was bleeding to death in the road as "not very well" and the dispatcher had to probe quite hard to get me to actually define what his condition was. Not being a very reserved chap I was surprised at how my behaviour changed in the heat of the moment..

After busting my collarbone and getting concussed at Swinley last year I have unfortunately first hand experience of these events. If there is any concussion the air amubulance is called out. By the time it landed for me I was completely lucid (well for me anyway :)) and frankly quite embrassed about the fuss. I got a lift out with the ranger in his truck - about 1.5miles and then an amublance. It was a bit rough but Ok.

TJ is quite right. You ring up and tell the 999 operator the injury status and they decide whether you need an ambulance/helicopter. You don't ring for a helicopter.

I was at Swinley yesterday and seeing the landrover ambulance in the woods at the first crash it brough but too many bad memories. I presume that a landrover amublance is a new feature to get people evaced out of the woods?

I hope that the lads are OK.

Was there yesterday as well and saw one of the incidents.

Is there a charity tin for the air ambulance where you buy the passes? I'll definitely be sticking a few quid in next time I see one.

I think we all owe them a good few donations since we are possible future customers..

I also had an OTB on the double at the end of the jump gully about 2 years ago, fortunately I didn't require an ambulance. It still took me 6 months to feel fully fit again.

It made me very cautious of those jumps, I know they are not particularly special, but you can still hurt yourself!

Toys - I think that is unusual in that you have trained dispatchers and I am still absolutely certain it is used in many instances where it is not merited. Broken wrists and the like.

Tony - my point is the majority of the ambulance telephone operators are not medically trained at all so will always err on the side of caution and send out air ambulances where they are not necessarily needed. Mention head and / or spinal ijury as a possibility and you get teh air ambulance.

How many of these air ambulance incidents has the use of the air ambulance actually made any significant difference to the casualty?

Have any of you got the ads to the side with the model copters?? cheeky bstards....they spring up at the mere hint of a topic and pedal their merchandise...could have been that both lads were killed and they are here trying to sell RC toys.

It would be interesting to know how many call-outs there are in a year at Swinley and whether this figure changes from year to year.

Swinley is a victim of its own success so therefore more people are riding trails that they don't know. There is no grading system, after all it is not a trail centre, but do wonder whether some should have a warning.

I am the last person who wants to babysit folk but having witnessed an accident that resulted in the air ambulance being called out last Winter, perhaps now is the time to commence dialogue with Crown Estate/your average Joe etc.

TandemJeremy - Member

Toys - I think that is unusual in that you have trained dispatchers and I am still absolutely certain it is used in many instances where it is not merited. Broken wrists and the like.

This is laughable, I provide you with evidence to refute your spurious armchair claims, and you still insist on peddling your opinionated rubbish. What evidence exactly do you have of:

1) Untrained dispatchers.
2) air ambulances being sent out for spurious reasons.

The DAAT site acknowledges that there are mistakes from the DAAT site

The dispatchers are specially trained and have spent time shadowing their aircrew colleagues. It is their decision to intercept any 999 call they think suitable for Air Ambulance deployment. Their expertise has resulted in a 30% drop in the helicopters being sent on to inappropriate missions and a decrease in it being overlooked deployed to jobs where it can truly make a difference to patient care.

How do you propose exactly to avoid incorrect deployment, surely it makes more sense to send the Air Ambulance rather than not, just in case the injured person is a winger who needs to MTFU? Seeing as for example the Devon air ambulance is a charity they seem pretty pleased with the way they dispatch their copters. Why are you insisting in perpetuating this idea that somehow anyone who injures themselves more than 10M from a road automatically fones 999 and insists on the Air Ambulance because they just are not as "back country" as you?

Can I mention that there is a large hospital about 5 miles away from Swinley Forest.

I do know that after the January accident, the air ambulance used another hospital approx 12 miles away.

In fact I'm currently googling air ambulances around the UK and one thing I keep finding is "team of trained dispatchers" mentioned including the TVAAC which cover Swinley and the scottish air ambulance service which I believe covers where you live TJ?

Toys - you missed my point. Devon is unusual in having specifically trained air ambulance dispatchers. I acknowledged that. Untrained dispatcher - my friend is one.

I really can't be bothered with this again - but just look at the number of "walking wounded" from here who have been in air ambulances.

The risk is if you send them to every accident then they are not available when someone really needs one. Mind you tey are not available in many parts of the country anyway.

Edit - we are meaning trained in different ways - I meant as in having a recognised medical type qualification that would allow them to assess on medical need.

The air ambulance regularly lands at Swinley. Some of this can be attributed to the jump gulley where unfortunately many youngsters do not wear helmets/padding/trail-worthy bikes. Actually that goes for a few adults too.

Is there any way of finding out the number of call-outs?

I think I see your point exactly. I cannot see why you are trying to make it.

Kent - HEMS desk to dispatch air ambulances
London - Highly Trained Dispatch Team
East anglia

Missions are controlled from the main NHS Ambulance Trust’s HQ. Here a team of trained operators will assess every emergency call against a pre-determined set of criteria to establish whether a helicopter should be called out

The charity was set up in 2000 and with the addition of the second air ambulance in October 2007, we were the first Air Ambulance in the UK to own and operate a Dedicated Air Desk

How exactly do you propose to solve this perceived dispatch problem and the associated "air ambulance calling for no reason" malaise in the average UK outdoors person that you have identified?

I'll take your comment that "you cannot be bothered to go over this again" as tacit acceptance that you wish you hadn't put your foot in your mouth again but as usual you are not man enough to admit when you are wrong. In fact I would go far as saying that you put your personal pride and ego over any consideration of truth and the effect your continuous posturing on this forum has.

toys - sorry you don't see my point at all. What we are reffereing to as trained is not he same thing - trained to

assess every emergency call against a pre-determined set of criteria

However I really can't be bothered any more debating with folk who think its ok to call the emergency services out for every minor injury

But you don't 'call out' the emergency services.

You 'call' the emergency services. They make the decision as to whether they need to call out someone to attend or simply tell you to MTFU.

Did hear someone say that the air ambulance costs money whether it's flying or not and the 'copter needs to be used regularly for mechanical reasons.
May or may not be true but thought I'd stick my oar in.

We had this last time, despite what you think, the emergency services are a result of the fact that people make what you think are stupid mistakes and call them normally for advice. It's easy in hindsight to say that the Air Ambulance wasn't necessary, but at the time the medical experts tend to think that its better to be safe than sorry.

I think I'm going to send this thread and your email address to every Air ambulance trust in the UK and advice them of hwo they need your expertise.

Again your attempt at backing out of this proves my point that you only sing when you think your winning.

MF - exactly, which is why TJ's perception that people call them out for any old reason is just ignorant bunkem, and he knows it.

[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7801917.stm ]Other valid reasons for 'calling out' the emergency services....[/url]

I'll take your comment that "you cannot be bothered to go over this again" as tacit acceptance that you wish you hadn't put your foot in your mouth again but as usual you are not man enough to admit when you are wrong. In fact I would go far as saying that you put your personal pride and ego over any consideration of truth and the effect your continuous posturing on this forum has.

that I will answer.

I do not believe I have put my foot in it again. I will happily accept where I am wrong but I am 100% sure I am not on this one. However I cannot explain this to you in such a way as you can understand and / or you have a different viewpoint.

This is about a difference in point of view and of attitude. You fail to understand my point of view then get all abusive.

I am not the one who is being abusive and making personal attacks.

You on the other hand fail to understand a simple and basic point - and that is why I can't be bothered debating with you. You have decided I am wrong and will not even accept the possibility you might be.

I find it very annoying to hear of walking wounded calling out the emergency services without need - not least because their selfishness might mean someone with real need has to wait. To say "call 999 and let them decide is a cop out. Take some personal responsibility.

toys - I do think you have been quite rude in your responses to TJ. It's good that we can have these debates but would suggest personal attacks are out of order.

Nope just robustly stating the facts as I see them. TJ will accuse anyone he likes of talking "twaddle" and "bullshine" and I've never seen him back down, and this quite frankly makes me angry.

Not as angry as the tale of a lady I knew who was too timid to call the emergency services after a head injury as she didn't want to "bother them" and "felt fine now anyway" and later died of a subdural haematoma. We don't all have TJ's perceived level of medical skill.

Which is exactly the reuslt of this

I find it very annoying to hear of walking wounded calling out the emergency services without need - not least because their selfishness might mean someone with real need has to wait. To say "call 999 and let them decide is a cop out. Take some personal responsibility. "

💡 if the London Ambulance Service HEMS team are dispatched then a HEMS team Paramedic who is active with the unit will have screened the call interrogating as necessary, and then dispatched appropriately

i'm "guessing" that any decreased level of consciousness from a traumatic insult will be treated with a high index of suspicion until proven otherwise

any person who has been unconscious should be taken to the nearest neuro hospital (definitive treatment centre) NOT the nearest a&e - as the rate of mortality significantly increases if you then require to be transferred to a difinitive care centre if a brain injury is present

[i]decreased level of consciousness from a traumatic insult[/i]

is this a reference to Toys making comments about TJ?

toys - there are plenty of times I will back down when shown to be wrong. On this I know I am right and I also know that you have misunderstood my point in you self-righteous anger

I know of loads of spurious callouts. Broken collar bones with 5 mins walk of the car - that sort of thing. Some seen with my own eyes some read of on here and in other places.

Spurious callouts to the emergency services which could lead to delays for people who need the services really annoys me

Nobody knows how bad their injury is until they get to hospital.

Utter bollox just real shite.

cinnamon_girl - Member

toys - I do think you have been quite rude in your responses to TJ. It's good that we can have these debates but would suggest personal attacks are out of order.

Yup because he is so voluble in his destruction of others on here when he feels like it, I think he needs a taste of his own medicine.

I "broke" my wrist on the black run at Afan in march, I didn't want to ruin my mates day so insisted on walking down pushing my bike one handed on my own so I know what this means.

During the winter accident, I spoke by phone to the ambulance control and they regularly asked questions on the rider's condition. He was actually unconscious, lying face-down in a frozen rut. Fortunately he did come round.

They were obviously briefing the air ambulance crew.

But TJ, your example (just above) assumes the person/party with the injury knows the injury is not life-threatening and that simple strapping will suffice until they can get themselves to A&E.

If in any doubt, call the emergency services and let them decide.

I know of loads of spurious callouts. Broken collar bones with 5 mins walk of the car - that sort of thing. Some seen with my own eyes some read of on here and in other places.

Have you ever broken a collar bone? I was present/involved in a collar bone breakage where the guy could not even stand never mind walk after breaking it, again about 10 mins walk from car park, needed stretchering out.

Utter bollox just real shite.

Again how do you propose to solve this little problem you have identified?

OK, am I stupid? Had an off in the middle of nowhere on a solo ride. Painful shoulder. Checked bike over and got back on. Rode back to car. After 5 days of pain, presented myself to A & E and was diagnosed with broken collar bone.

I dealt with it cos I had to.

cinnamon_girl - Member

OK, am I stupid? Had an off in the middle of nowhere on a solo ride. Painful shoulder. Checked bike over and got back on. Rode back to car. After 5 days of pain, presented myself to A & E and was diagnosed with broken collar bone.

I dealt with it cos I had to.

I do not think you were stupid, if you felt OK them you were OK, so it turns out your collar bone was broken, was it really bad, was it separated and sticking into your flesh? I dunno and I'm not belittling your indecent and subsequent achievement in getting yourself home but all accidents are different and often people will need help.

I fell off my bike and St Johns ambulance used a 4x4 to get me to a proper ambulance.

I was laying in the ambulance talkign to my wife saying 'it's ok I've just got a really bad dead leg - I'll drive home when it clears up'. The ambulance guys were exchanging glances and offering me entonox.

I had a broken hip.

the casualty is not always the best person to determine the appropriate course of action.

toys - you made a fair point with the links but to push it to the point of apparently questioning whether everyone should be automatically hospitalised due to not truly knowing their state of health after an accident?

the casualty is not always the best person to determine the appropriate course of action.

Of course not, but we can't just call out the best possible form of medical care and transport to any injury on the off-chance that they're not really aware of how injured they are or because the trip involves a short walk to the road seems a little OTT, considering the cost and implications to others who may be in significantly more trouble. You could use that argument to justify pretty much any expenses, ever.

ave you ever broken a collar bone? I was present/involved in a collar bone breakage where the guy could not even stand never mind walk after breaking it, again about 10 mins walk from car park, needed stretchering out.

I broke my arm clean through, shoulder and two ribs. I had to walk over a mile to the nearest road. In hospital I started throwing up (head injury). Even then I actually felt guilty that an big and expensive vehicle and two people had gone out of their way/towards me to pick me up.

Saying that if I had a road traffic accident and felt I had broken bones I'd expect an air lift. Sounds hypocritical in a way doesn't it?

Hora, well done, I never said it wasn't possible, but I for one think that you needed an air ambulance and could have killed yourself. Imagine if the break had severed an artery?

So... back on topic. The AA does seem to be out most times that I go to Swinley (which admittedly isn't that often), and you would think twice in one day will have them twitching. Maybe worth keeping an eye on - the gully and the Labyrinth aren't consistently built in the same way that other parts are, so it may be that they're seen as a liability.
OTOH, that gully pulls in quite large numbers of kids (and their parents to drop them off), so maybe they'll think it's worth it.

I saw a girl at Surrey hills who had taaken a header over the bars and was in what I would describe as all sorts of trouble.

She was attended on the scene by a paramedic who arrived in an ambulance but I believe was then taken to hospital in the air ambulance which had also arrived.

I think that those answering calls of this type are trained to know what goes where as it were and I'm sure the right resource is sent to the right place at the right time. It could be argued that this woman had brought it upon herself, she was mountain biking, the fall was on a bridleway annd could most likely have been avoided etc, however if I was ever in the same boat I'd be extremely thankful that the AA was around and available.

I've seen people call ambulances for broken bones and then I've seen others drive themselves to hospital when they probably should have been in the ambulance. Not for me to judge so I don't.

Hora, well done, I never said it wasn't possible, but I for one think that you needed an air ambulance and could have killed yourself. Imagine if the break had severed an artery?

Always possible, but how likely? And how small a chance do you cut-off at?

Coffeking - Always possible, but how likely? And how small a chance do you cut-off at?

Then thinking like that we really shouldn't ride off road again?

Saying all this- if I was with a rider who was fitting or [u]knew there wasn't a road/access closeby[/u] I'd actually point this out in the call and ask for a airlift.

coffeeking - Member

toys - you made a fair point with the links but to push it to the point of apparently questioning whether everyone should be automatically hospitalised due to not truly knowing their state of health after an accident?

the casualty is not always the best person to determine the appropriate course of action.

Of course not, but we can't just call out the best possible form of medical care and transport to any injury on the off-chance that they're not really aware of how injured they are or because the trip involves a short walk to the road seems a little OTT, considering the cost and implications to others who may be in significantly more trouble. You could use that argument to justify pretty much any expenses, ever.

Yeah I don't think I meant your reading of it, I have more faith in the communication between the injured and the 999 dispatchers to make a better judgement, they will get it wrong but lets hope they err on the side of caution. I'm just not keen telling people to man up when inside they might be really suffering but feeling intimidated by the experts around them telling them what a waste of resources it is to call 999 when you just had a little bump on the head or its probably just a broken rib or collar bone, walk it off.....

well, in the spirit of utter Hora-hardness, I knocked a tooth out, cracked my cheek from eyesocket to tooth, cracked my jaw in two places, detached my cheek from my jaw and cheekbone, and ultimately needed 84 stitches to re-attach it. I didn't have a clue how bad it was, as I couldn't see it at the time, but just felt groggy. Actually tried to get back on the bike but my mate stopped me.

Walked 10mins to the nearest pub (after jamming the tooth back in) to be told the ambulance would take about an hour. So, my mate called the local minicabs and (after posing for photos) I went to the hospital which took about 40 mins. They didn't prioritise head injuries that well then, and that was North Downs.

.

Frankly, it's probably the air ambulance cos they've got one, and are covering their arse from being sued for not taking it seriously. If it didn't turn up and someone was seriously hurt all hell would break loose.

In all honestly, there's nothing particularly big or dangerous at the jump gulley, it just encourages kids and their spoony mates to hang around all day egging each other on.

I've seem more air ambulance pickups at Swinley than my annual week ski trips.

Seem plenty of people strapped into those little ski trailers and being guided down the mountain. Would have thought that would have been pretty bumpy as well.

I would have thought if someone was properly strapped into a padded spine board a landie driving at slowish pace on a fireroad would be fine?

I like the jumps in the gully there, I thought they were really well built.

According to toys everybody who falls must be flown to hospital to be assessed as no one is ever able to make a trailside assessment and anything other than the air ambulance is potential deathtrap!

Toys - re read coffeekings post - he understands my point. Spurious callouts of the emergency services might mean someone with real need waiting. It is completely ridiculous to say that people can only be assessed in hospital. Do you call the ambulance every time you fall?

I have broken bones and other injuries as well - many visits to A&E always under my own steam.

I simply believe that people should have some basic first aid knowledge and in the event of a casualty should be able to assess whether they can self evacuate or not. Of course you should always errr on the side of caution and not everyone has a high level of skills and knowledge but with a bit of basic first aid and some common sense you do a fair amount.

It is often quicker to self evacuate. I am not saying one should always do it but it should be considered for quickness and to reduce the strain on the emergency services. You should think - does this need an ambulance? Can we get them to hospital [i]safely[/i]

Yup because he is so voluble in his destruction of others on here when he feels like it, I think he needs a taste of his own medicine.

How arrogant is that.

If you think you can walk off the trail and get yourself to hospital, great. I think once you've decided you need help, it's a non-issue about how they choose to extract you - they are the experts. If you've paid some taxes, I see no reason to feel any guilt about getting help.

EDIT: I've taken this bit out because it was a bit disrespectful

[i]It is often quicker to self evacuate[/i]

particularly if you are scared.

Buzzlightyear - Member

If you think you can walk off the trail and get yourself to hospital, great. I think once you've decided you need help, it's a non-issue about how they choose to extract you - they are the experts

I don't diasgree - My point is that people call out the services when they are perfectly capable of getting to A&E safely on their own.

I certainly was not attempting to belitle anyone

TJ I do not believe that Toys has ever suggested everyone should automatically be airlifted to hospital.

Meanwhile on Saturday afternoon, just 15 miles away from Swinley, the air ambulance landed on the M3 motorway to attend a multi-vehicle crash.

toys19 - Member

Nobody knows how bad their injury is until they get to hospital.

So toys doesn't believe any injury can be attendeing to at the trailside and everyone who crashes must go to A&E in an ambulance as

Nobody knows how bad their injury is until they get to hospital.

🙄

After riding Cannock chase 'Monkey' and 'follow the dog' trails yesterday, I was amazed at the number of people out on the trails. Many of them riding badly, some had little skill and riding far too fast for their abilities e.g. racing each other and riding without helmets. I pulled over at one point 'cos the chap behind was trying to overtake in a really bad place. He admitted later, it was his first time out for 4 years.

I'm guessing that Cannock Chase, like Swinley forest, gets very overcrowded and people may get egged on by friends to ride stuff they're not used to. Thus accidents happen more often in these types of places.

Do places like Chicksands get this many air ambulances etc? Chicksands is pretty much a "freeride" area but never hear about ambulances or any problems there.

Or maybe that's because people who go to Chicksands are probably more of the freeride kind and thus have more skill/experience on jumps rather than xc'ers who fancy a quick go on the jumps at Swinley (no offence anyone!)?