[Closed] Two crashes at Swinley yesterday

[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7801917.stm ]Other valid reasons for 'calling out' the emergency services....[/url]

I'll take your comment that "you cannot be bothered to go over this again" as tacit acceptance that you wish you hadn't put your foot in your mouth again but as usual you are not man enough to admit when you are wrong. In fact I would go far as saying that you put your personal pride and ego over any consideration of truth and the effect your continuous posturing on this forum has.

that I will answer.

I do not believe I have put my foot in it again. I will happily accept where I am wrong but I am 100% sure I am not on this one. However I cannot explain this to you in such a way as you can understand and / or you have a different viewpoint.

This is about a difference in point of view and of attitude. You fail to understand my point of view then get all abusive.

I am not the one who is being abusive and making personal attacks.

You on the other hand fail to understand a simple and basic point - and that is why I can't be bothered debating with you. You have decided I am wrong and will not even accept the possibility you might be.

I find it very annoying to hear of walking wounded calling out the emergency services without need - not least because their selfishness might mean someone with real need has to wait. To say "call 999 and let them decide is a cop out. Take some personal responsibility.

toys - I do think you have been quite rude in your responses to TJ. It's good that we can have these debates but would suggest personal attacks are out of order.

Nope just robustly stating the facts as I see them. TJ will accuse anyone he likes of talking "twaddle" and "bullshine" and I've never seen him back down, and this quite frankly makes me angry.

Not as angry as the tale of a lady I knew who was too timid to call the emergency services after a head injury as she didn't want to "bother them" and "felt fine now anyway" and later died of a subdural haematoma. We don't all have TJ's perceived level of medical skill.

Which is exactly the reuslt of this

I find it very annoying to hear of walking wounded calling out the emergency services without need - not least because their selfishness might mean someone with real need has to wait. To say "call 999 and let them decide is a cop out. Take some personal responsibility. "

💡 if the London Ambulance Service HEMS team are dispatched then a HEMS team Paramedic who is active with the unit will have screened the call interrogating as necessary, and then dispatched appropriately

i'm "guessing" that any decreased level of consciousness from a traumatic insult will be treated with a high index of suspicion until proven otherwise

any person who has been unconscious should be taken to the nearest neuro hospital (definitive treatment centre) NOT the nearest a&e - as the rate of mortality significantly increases if you then require to be transferred to a difinitive care centre if a brain injury is present

[i]decreased level of consciousness from a traumatic insult[/i]

is this a reference to Toys making comments about TJ?

toys - there are plenty of times I will back down when shown to be wrong. On this I know I am right and I also know that you have misunderstood my point in you self-righteous anger

I know of loads of spurious callouts. Broken collar bones with 5 mins walk of the car - that sort of thing. Some seen with my own eyes some read of on here and in other places.

Spurious callouts to the emergency services which could lead to delays for people who need the services really annoys me

Nobody knows how bad their injury is until they get to hospital.

Utter bollox just real shite.

cinnamon_girl - Member

toys - I do think you have been quite rude in your responses to TJ. It's good that we can have these debates but would suggest personal attacks are out of order.

Yup because he is so voluble in his destruction of others on here when he feels like it, I think he needs a taste of his own medicine.

I "broke" my wrist on the black run at Afan in march, I didn't want to ruin my mates day so insisted on walking down pushing my bike one handed on my own so I know what this means.

During the winter accident, I spoke by phone to the ambulance control and they regularly asked questions on the rider's condition. He was actually unconscious, lying face-down in a frozen rut. Fortunately he did come round.

They were obviously briefing the air ambulance crew.

But TJ, your example (just above) assumes the person/party with the injury knows the injury is not life-threatening and that simple strapping will suffice until they can get themselves to A&E.

If in any doubt, call the emergency services and let them decide.

I know of loads of spurious callouts. Broken collar bones with 5 mins walk of the car - that sort of thing. Some seen with my own eyes some read of on here and in other places.

Have you ever broken a collar bone? I was present/involved in a collar bone breakage where the guy could not even stand never mind walk after breaking it, again about 10 mins walk from car park, needed stretchering out.

Utter bollox just real shite.

Again how do you propose to solve this little problem you have identified?

OK, am I stupid? Had an off in the middle of nowhere on a solo ride. Painful shoulder. Checked bike over and got back on. Rode back to car. After 5 days of pain, presented myself to A & E and was diagnosed with broken collar bone.

I dealt with it cos I had to.

cinnamon_girl - Member

OK, am I stupid? Had an off in the middle of nowhere on a solo ride. Painful shoulder. Checked bike over and got back on. Rode back to car. After 5 days of pain, presented myself to A & E and was diagnosed with broken collar bone.

I dealt with it cos I had to.

I do not think you were stupid, if you felt OK them you were OK, so it turns out your collar bone was broken, was it really bad, was it separated and sticking into your flesh? I dunno and I'm not belittling your indecent and subsequent achievement in getting yourself home but all accidents are different and often people will need help.

I fell off my bike and St Johns ambulance used a 4x4 to get me to a proper ambulance.

I was laying in the ambulance talkign to my wife saying 'it's ok I've just got a really bad dead leg - I'll drive home when it clears up'. The ambulance guys were exchanging glances and offering me entonox.

I had a broken hip.

the casualty is not always the best person to determine the appropriate course of action.

toys - you made a fair point with the links but to push it to the point of apparently questioning whether everyone should be automatically hospitalised due to not truly knowing their state of health after an accident?

the casualty is not always the best person to determine the appropriate course of action.

Of course not, but we can't just call out the best possible form of medical care and transport to any injury on the off-chance that they're not really aware of how injured they are or because the trip involves a short walk to the road seems a little OTT, considering the cost and implications to others who may be in significantly more trouble. You could use that argument to justify pretty much any expenses, ever.

ave you ever broken a collar bone? I was present/involved in a collar bone breakage where the guy could not even stand never mind walk after breaking it, again about 10 mins walk from car park, needed stretchering out.

I broke my arm clean through, shoulder and two ribs. I had to walk over a mile to the nearest road. In hospital I started throwing up (head injury). Even then I actually felt guilty that an big and expensive vehicle and two people had gone out of their way/towards me to pick me up.

Saying that if I had a road traffic accident and felt I had broken bones I'd expect an air lift. Sounds hypocritical in a way doesn't it?

Hora, well done, I never said it wasn't possible, but I for one think that you needed an air ambulance and could have killed yourself. Imagine if the break had severed an artery?

So... back on topic. The AA does seem to be out most times that I go to Swinley (which admittedly isn't that often), and you would think twice in one day will have them twitching. Maybe worth keeping an eye on - the gully and the Labyrinth aren't consistently built in the same way that other parts are, so it may be that they're seen as a liability.
OTOH, that gully pulls in quite large numbers of kids (and their parents to drop them off), so maybe they'll think it's worth it.

I saw a girl at Surrey hills who had taaken a header over the bars and was in what I would describe as all sorts of trouble.

She was attended on the scene by a paramedic who arrived in an ambulance but I believe was then taken to hospital in the air ambulance which had also arrived.

I think that those answering calls of this type are trained to know what goes where as it were and I'm sure the right resource is sent to the right place at the right time. It could be argued that this woman had brought it upon herself, she was mountain biking, the fall was on a bridleway annd could most likely have been avoided etc, however if I was ever in the same boat I'd be extremely thankful that the AA was around and available.

I've seen people call ambulances for broken bones and then I've seen others drive themselves to hospital when they probably should have been in the ambulance. Not for me to judge so I don't.

Hora, well done, I never said it wasn't possible, but I for one think that you needed an air ambulance and could have killed yourself. Imagine if the break had severed an artery?

Always possible, but how likely? And how small a chance do you cut-off at?

Coffeking - Always possible, but how likely? And how small a chance do you cut-off at?

Then thinking like that we really shouldn't ride off road again?

Saying all this- if I was with a rider who was fitting or [u]knew there wasn't a road/access closeby[/u] I'd actually point this out in the call and ask for a airlift.

coffeeking - Member

toys - you made a fair point with the links but to push it to the point of apparently questioning whether everyone should be automatically hospitalised due to not truly knowing their state of health after an accident?

the casualty is not always the best person to determine the appropriate course of action.

Of course not, but we can't just call out the best possible form of medical care and transport to any injury on the off-chance that they're not really aware of how injured they are or because the trip involves a short walk to the road seems a little OTT, considering the cost and implications to others who may be in significantly more trouble. You could use that argument to justify pretty much any expenses, ever.

Yeah I don't think I meant your reading of it, I have more faith in the communication between the injured and the 999 dispatchers to make a better judgement, they will get it wrong but lets hope they err on the side of caution. I'm just not keen telling people to man up when inside they might be really suffering but feeling intimidated by the experts around them telling them what a waste of resources it is to call 999 when you just had a little bump on the head or its probably just a broken rib or collar bone, walk it off.....

well, in the spirit of utter Hora-hardness, I knocked a tooth out, cracked my cheek from eyesocket to tooth, cracked my jaw in two places, detached my cheek from my jaw and cheekbone, and ultimately needed 84 stitches to re-attach it. I didn't have a clue how bad it was, as I couldn't see it at the time, but just felt groggy. Actually tried to get back on the bike but my mate stopped me.

Walked 10mins to the nearest pub (after jamming the tooth back in) to be told the ambulance would take about an hour. So, my mate called the local minicabs and (after posing for photos) I went to the hospital which took about 40 mins. They didn't prioritise head injuries that well then, and that was North Downs.

.

Frankly, it's probably the air ambulance cos they've got one, and are covering their arse from being sued for not taking it seriously. If it didn't turn up and someone was seriously hurt all hell would break loose.

In all honestly, there's nothing particularly big or dangerous at the jump gulley, it just encourages kids and their spoony mates to hang around all day egging each other on.

I've seem more air ambulance pickups at Swinley than my annual week ski trips.

Seem plenty of people strapped into those little ski trailers and being guided down the mountain. Would have thought that would have been pretty bumpy as well.

I would have thought if someone was properly strapped into a padded spine board a landie driving at slowish pace on a fireroad would be fine?

I like the jumps in the gully there, I thought they were really well built.

According to toys everybody who falls must be flown to hospital to be assessed as no one is ever able to make a trailside assessment and anything other than the air ambulance is potential deathtrap!

Toys - re read coffeekings post - he understands my point. Spurious callouts of the emergency services might mean someone with real need waiting. It is completely ridiculous to say that people can only be assessed in hospital. Do you call the ambulance every time you fall?

I have broken bones and other injuries as well - many visits to A&E always under my own steam.

I simply believe that people should have some basic first aid knowledge and in the event of a casualty should be able to assess whether they can self evacuate or not. Of course you should always errr on the side of caution and not everyone has a high level of skills and knowledge but with a bit of basic first aid and some common sense you do a fair amount.

It is often quicker to self evacuate. I am not saying one should always do it but it should be considered for quickness and to reduce the strain on the emergency services. You should think - does this need an ambulance? Can we get them to hospital [i]safely[/i]

Yup because he is so voluble in his destruction of others on here when he feels like it, I think he needs a taste of his own medicine.

How arrogant is that.

If you think you can walk off the trail and get yourself to hospital, great. I think once you've decided you need help, it's a non-issue about how they choose to extract you - they are the experts. If you've paid some taxes, I see no reason to feel any guilt about getting help.

EDIT: I've taken this bit out because it was a bit disrespectful

[i]It is often quicker to self evacuate[/i]

particularly if you are scared.

Buzzlightyear - Member

If you think you can walk off the trail and get yourself to hospital, great. I think once you've decided you need help, it's a non-issue about how they choose to extract you - they are the experts

I don't diasgree - My point is that people call out the services when they are perfectly capable of getting to A&E safely on their own.

I certainly was not attempting to belitle anyone

TJ I do not believe that Toys has ever suggested everyone should automatically be airlifted to hospital.

Meanwhile on Saturday afternoon, just 15 miles away from Swinley, the air ambulance landed on the M3 motorway to attend a multi-vehicle crash.

toys19 - Member

Nobody knows how bad their injury is until they get to hospital.

So toys doesn't believe any injury can be attendeing to at the trailside and everyone who crashes must go to A&E in an ambulance as

Nobody knows how bad their injury is until they get to hospital.

🙄

After riding Cannock chase 'Monkey' and 'follow the dog' trails yesterday, I was amazed at the number of people out on the trails. Many of them riding badly, some had little skill and riding far too fast for their abilities e.g. racing each other and riding without helmets. I pulled over at one point 'cos the chap behind was trying to overtake in a really bad place. He admitted later, it was his first time out for 4 years.

I'm guessing that Cannock Chase, like Swinley forest, gets very overcrowded and people may get egged on by friends to ride stuff they're not used to. Thus accidents happen more often in these types of places.

Do places like Chicksands get this many air ambulances etc? Chicksands is pretty much a "freeride" area but never hear about ambulances or any problems there.

Or maybe that's because people who go to Chicksands are probably more of the freeride kind and thus have more skill/experience on jumps rather than xc'ers who fancy a quick go on the jumps at Swinley (no offence anyone!)?

Tj this is a pathetic attempt to twist my words to massage your own argument. Try harder.
My point is that once again you jump on a thread to peddle your rubbish without a proper command if the facts. First you said that air ambulance control rooms were staffed by untrained dispatchers, I comprehensively proved you wrong so you moved the goalposts. Next you try to make my arguments mean something else by mincing my words. In truth it us you who are arrogant. You were not at swinley and are not privy to the facts as to who called 999 and how the decisions to dispatch the chopper were made. Yet you thought this was an opportune moment to pass judgement on these events to puff out your chest and blather on with your poorly founded opinions. That is arrogance. You know nothing of these incidents, and have no idea how badly the victims were injured, and you have decided to sacrifice their misfortune at the altar of your ego.

Toys - you are laughable.

You are the one twisting my words to try to put me down. I simply have not said what yo accuse me off. However your need to put me down at all times blinds you to any reason.

I don't know why you feel it necessary to attack me in this way Are you that inadequate?

Go and have a re read and see if I have done what you accuse me off. For example my first post

TandemJeremy - Member

..............Who knows if it was needed here? Certainly not us nor the telephone operator. The only person who can tell is a trained person at the scene.

who will call out the air ambulance according to parameters they have. They are not [b]medically trained[/b] in any way nor are they making a medical asseessment

I stand by everything I have posted - shame you seem unable to read. I did not say they had no training - I said they had no medical training and were not making a medical assessment

Slate me for what I have done and said by all means - but why make up things?

You are pathetic, inadequate and arrogant and I will not engage with you again.

Yes TJ we all saw that, this is called pre-qualification and you commonly use it to cover your ass so you can go on to say whatever daily mail unspired tripe you want whilst holding up your hands and saying "what? who me?" It's as transparent as it is lame. I'm glad you won't engage with me again as hopefully it means if I enter a thread you will leave.

Toys -Look at the order of the posts. I said [b]medically trained[/b] [i]before[/i] you came in with your post about them being trained. Being trained to answer calls is not the same thing as being medically trained to make medical assessments. So we are both right.

so once again your blind arrogance leads you to a mistake.

Please try to think and read before you jump in slagging me - you have the sequence of events reversed here hence your mistake

chakaping - Member
I like the jumps in the gully there, I thought they were really well built.

They are, I pretty much learn't to jump there.
The problem is the people who try to improve them.(and leave litter, but thats another story) The chap who originally built those jumps doesn't really build too much anymore, only ever see him knocking other peoples stuff down and maintaining some very busy trails...
Helped a guy out with a broken collarbone this winter, he crashed on the other side of surrey hill, not the gulley, had to walk out a bit but eventually met the ranger. The ambulance service don't have a 4x4 ambulance and the current fleet are FWD, so in the summer they may get there but if wet and the ranger isn't around it's probably walk out or fly out.

Hmm. I wonder why ALL threads with TJ arguing on them end up this way..

I think perhaps it's because TJ is not great at understanding people. So he takes words slightly the wrong way and then he jumps to the conclusion that they are idiots and wastes no time in telling them..

Shame really - all these arguments are the result of miscommunication. I mean with both sides accusing each other of twisting their words.. that surely points to just miscommunication doesn't it?

I suggest when you think you've been insulted or your words have been twisted, to try and work out why you think that. Is it really likely that so many people on here are wilfully trying to misrepresent you?

Although I suspect that self-questioning isn't one of TJ's strong points either... You seems to be absolutely 100% sure that you are right all the time, and don't seem to be able to take in other people's ideas.

I think TJ is right here, But regardless all this leads to an entertaining thread.

Molgrips - to some extent you are right perhaps altho is at least in part my inability to explain myself and for reasons I fail to understand a small number of people like Toys like to attack me at every opportunity.

He clearly has not understood my general point and has also made a clear mistake as in the thing over the training of the call handlers in his haste to attack me.

I also don't drop things when perhaps I should do. I should remeber just to make my point and ignore all the vituperative nonsense from folk such as Toys

Edit - I do qyuestion myself a lot and I only argue where I am certain. I am quite happy to admit when I am wrong or ask for clarification / explanation when needed.
Ta shep!

I fail to understand a small number of people like Toys like to attack me at every opportunity.

I can recall many times recently when I have supported you, I'm only interested in shooting you down when you are wrong.

Fair enough Toys if you have supported me on other threads. I'll apologise for that crack then. Can you change that to

............when [i]I think[/i] you are wrong

I am certain you have missed a basic point here tho in your haste to attack me and that it was rather more vituperative than really needed.