[Closed] Top Copper is a lying shyster- should he be jailed?

i bet they really come down hard on him.

retired on full pension, something like that.

He is the manager , how would anyone expect him to know whats happening with his minions

Would it depend on why the false information was given?

Was the lie to protect an ongoing investigation or to protect Officers identities etc?

He would have been under oath.

Allegations are that undercover officers were causing deliberate unrest.

Ill wait till I read something a little more substantial than a few paragraphs on the beeb before coming to any conclusion.

Hmmmmmmmmmm. I forsee in my crystal ball 'early retirement due to medical grounds on a full pension'

If we jailed everyone who lied there would be no room in prisons for murders and rapists but on the up side parliament would be empty

I think it's highly likely agents provocateurs were used. It would be in the police's interests long-term, if it was considered that the risk of violence could lead to future demonstrations being banned or prevented. So if a demo was going a bit too peacefully, then a couple of undercover coppers could stir things up
deliberately, get things kicking off nicely, which would then necessitate the need for [s]police brutality[/s] appropriate force to be used. Adds fuel to the argument against allowing demonstrations.

Ill wait till I read something a little more substantial than a few paragraphs on the beeb before coming to any conclusion.

I say sod waiting for any further and more in-depth information; let's use the scant amount of sensationalist reporting so far, to get our knees-a-jerking and justify a lynching.

Can't beat a good lynching. String 'em up! 🙂

Hahahaha!

He! You like that one, innit Kaesae? 😀

[Edited - can't be bothered to get into this debate]

nickf+1.

Enforcing a protest ban requires policing, so I don't see how it helps reduce police workload. Protests turning violent might help some politicians though...

The use of agents provocateurs, as has been done throughout history, serves to help sway public opinion against demonstrations/ers, by creating a situation which is violent and which threatens public safety. This then discredits the protests, and helps dissuade peaceful protestors from attending. I've heard many people say they think twice about going to demos, as they are afraid that things may turn violent. At the recent student demonstrations, the headlines were all about the violence, and very little about the reasons for the demonstrations.

I've been at demos where everything's been going along nice and peacefully, then seen lines of coppers in standard clothing being replaced by riot thugs, just before small groups of 'anarchists' have turned up and things have kicked off. All seemed to be almost orchestrated. This has happened on several occasions. i really don't think the police are clairvoyant...

I think it's actually more useful to think that this is in fact happening, than to deny any possibility, because if it's actually true, then people should be aware of this tactic.

Can't trust the police. Not when they are being used as a political tool.

Ill wait till I read something a little more substantial than a few paragraphs on the beeb before coming to any conclusion.

I say sod waiting for any further and more in-depth information; let's use the scant amount of sensationalist reporting so far, to get our knees-a-jerking and justify a lynching.
Can't beat a good lynching. String 'em up!

+1

I say sod waiting for any further and more in-depth information; let's use the scant amount of sensationalist reporting so far, to get our knees-a-jerking and justify a lynching.
Can't beat a good lynching. String 'em up!

*s****s*

If this is true then it really is very serious indeed. He has not misled the press - a policeman who is answerable to our elected representatives has lied to them on a important point

Democracy only functions if the police ultimately are answerable to the government.

IMO its on a par with perjury - it attacks the foundations of the state.

Democracy only functions if the police ultimately are answerable to the [s]government[/s] People.

FTFY. 🙂

Actually I should have said parliament - who act as our representatives. I definitely do not want directly elece4ted police chiefs who will be swayed by public opinion. I want fair impartial police chiefs - but they must be answerable to parliament

I think it's actually more useful to think that this is in fact happening, than to deny any possibility, because [b]if[/b] it's actually true, then people should be aware of this tactic.

I find it useful to wear a tinfoil helmet, because if the Martians attack, it'll protect me. It's better to think this way just in case it happens, which I really think it will. There's no point denying the possibility, because it really could happen.

Can't trust the politicians - it's in their interests to ensure we don't know about it.

Ah come on, the police aren't exactly the lily-white institution free from corruption and fault that they'd like people to think they are. Guilty of lying, falsifying statements, fabricating evidence, murder, rape, drug-dealing, all sorts. I've seen the local plods up to all kind of dodginess. I've seen off-duty coppers snorting cocaine. Amongst other things. Therefore I don't imagine the top brass are immune from being human beings either, and know that people are fallible, no matter what office they hold.

I don't put nuffink past no-one. I keep my mind open to things which are in fact more than likely.

There's no evidence of Martians. There's enough evidence of police dodginess.

lying shyster eh?

I know one of those.

Can't trust the police. Not when they are being used as a political tool.

must be pain having the politians change every few years, and having a spectrum of them on the police authorities

or is it "the establishment" you are fighting?

remember, just because you are paranoid it doesn't mean they aren't out to get you 😉

TandemJeremy - Member
Actually I should have said parliament - who act as our representatives. I definitely do not want directly elece4ted police chiefs who will be swayed by public opinion. I want fair impartial police chiefs - but they must be answerable to parliament

I'm surprised by your view, I would have thought you were ideally qualified for the role 😉

must be pain having the politians change every few years, and having a spectrum of them on the police authorities

Yeah whatever mate. If you don't know who's [i]really[/i] pulling your strings, then more fool you.

I've been at demos where everything's been going along nice and peacefully, then seen lines of coppers in standard clothing being replaced by riot thugs, just before small groups of 'anarchists' have turned up and things have kicked off. All seemed to be almost orchestrated. This has happened on several occasions. i really don't think the police are clairvoyant...

I thought is was to do with intelligence from special branch, cctv, helicopters and the info from spotters deployed all over the area including within the crowd...

unless you are in a very small demo how do you expect to see everything?

You sure you aren't a little paranoid elf? You're right we are all capable of acts of shystiness but you do need to ave a little bit of faith..

Yeah whatever mate. If you don't know who's really pulling your strings, then more fool you.

I thoughty it was either that rather bland Belgian or the Yanks? care to illuminate me?

intelligence from special branch

An oxymoron, surely? 😕

So, are you denying that agents provocateurs are being employed by Her Maj's Babylon, then, BnD?

One of your superiors is a lying shyster who is a danger to society. Gonna defend him?

Her Maj's Babylon

Sorry, probbly shouldn't say that, as it sounds a bit rude...

[i]Her Maj's 5-0![/i] 🙂

So, are you denying that agents provocateurs are being employed by Her Maj's babylon, then, BnD?

it's already in the public domain that police/ and I have no doubt other agencies have placed people within organisations and they have engaged in activities that would fit under the that label

however if you want me to believe that they have "ruck squads" systematically deployed to get demo's to kick -off I think you need to lend me the tin foil hat first.

there are that many "observers" at every demo that this tactic would be sussed very soon, never mind keeping it secret within the organisation, never mind funding it etc Any senior policemen would know it would be career and probably organisation suicide.

So, are you denying that agents provocateurs are being employed by Her Maj's babylon, then, BnD?

Show some evidence, eh? Otherwise you come across as being just a tad shouty and more than a little biased. As for 'Babylon' ...just unnecessary.

I have no evidence - you could be right for all I know - but from personal experience of an extremely senior officer (not much of a sample, but he's the only one I know), there's a lot to respect in the upper echelons of the police. The one I know is utterly uncorruptible, and has a healthy cynicism for all politicians. The chance of this officer having anything to do with the sorts of things you allege is nil.

OK, it's a sample of one, and I accept that there may well be rotten apples in the police. What I don't accept is that the Met is rotten to the core.

So, are you denying that agents provocateurs are being employed by Her Maj's Babylon, then, BnD?

how much are they paying you? Do you get a P60 is is it just cash?

I am certain there are serious issues in the met which lead them to be very heavy handed at demos. Its all about perceptions I guess but they believe there will be trouble and so use very aggressive tactics - which ensures that there is trouble - self fufilling prophecy.

It really does need sorting out and there is plenty of previous and evidence of agent provocateurs in other places - such as the recently unmasked officer in the green protests - he has admitted being an agent provocateur. instigating and driving forward demos

Edit - I am sure that they believe that they are doing the right thing - its just that their view of what is right is distorted - because there is trouble at demos in the past they assume there will be in the future so will use these aggressive tactics which create trouble / exacerbate it

I need more information as it depends on why he lied. Was it to protect officers, becuase he did not know, because they provoked trouble* or for another nefarious or innocent reason ?
Once I have all this information to hand I will reach [s]and informed conclusion[/s] for the pitchfork

*does Elfin really think it would have been a peacful protest without these coppers in the crowd surely no one is that naive?

I just don't buy it that the police delibrately caused the trouble, it just doesn't make sense, by far and away the overwhelming majority of police officers I'm guessing would rather not stand in a line being pushed and shoved, having things thrown at them, and always being at risk of being dragged into the crowd and set upon. They'd much rather stand there for a bit, listen to some students sing songs and shout, have a cup of tea, then go home I'd imagine.

Junkyard - the reasons for him lying are immaterial - he cannot lie to parliament.

I am certain there are serious issues in the met which lead them to be very heavy handed at demos. Its all about perceptions I guess but they believe there will be trouble and so use very aggressive tactics - which ensures that there is trouble - self fufilling prophecy.

I agree, they should stop using 300 as a training film for a start (unfortunately they probably really do have clips in their training presentations)

Andi - its not that they deliberately cause trouble IMO - its that they adopt tactics that create trouble because they believe there will be trouble - and then the ensuing trouble justifies ( to them) the tactics used.

That's more believable TJ, I'm sure that in most cases the tactics used and the resources are over the top. Problem is, I suppose, they have to be prepared for the worst possible scenario, if you're not, then you end up with scenes like Millbank Tower.

But Elfin's suggestions they cause the trouble is a bit too far fetched for me. Same with the accusations that that police van was left there just to get trashed on purpose, despite the fact it was full of expensive kit and officer's personal possessions.

it will be interesting to see if this goes anywhere

it seems that the undercover coppers they had in the grren protest movement were way out of control of their seniors wouldnt surprise me that the g20 coppers also [s]blatantly broke and ignored[/s] bent the rules

So Elfin if you saw off duty officers doing cocaine, have you reported them to the police? did you make any efforts to get them investigated?

I doubt very much that his lying was part of a coverup for squads of agents provocateurs or some other conspiracy theory. I expect it was down to a much more common human failing.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity (Hanlon's razor)

I, like the MPs, await further details of his stupidity.

*does Elfin really think it would have been a peacful protest without these coppers in the crowd surely no one is that naive?

Well obviously you are naive enough to believe that police officers who infiltrate and act as agent provocateurs don't encourage illegal acts.

And you have a short memory too.......less than a couple of weeks ago :

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jan/14/mark-kennedy-eu-summit-protest ]Mark Kennedy 'took part in attack on Irish police officers at EU summit'[/url]

Mark Stone/Kennedy was given a quarter of a million pounds a year by the police to organise and encourage illegal activities, and we only know about him because his cover was blown.

Having said that, I think in this case Elfin is probably exaggerating the role of the police in encouraging violence. What appears not to be in doubt though, is that a very senior police officer lied to those he was responsible to. If proven, he should face a prison sentence.

Junkyard - the reasons for him lying are immaterial - he cannot lie to parliament.

iirc you can lie to parliament and ministers can as there is a protocol/convention for this - there was debate mid 70's? on this - you could lie over operations involving secret service agents for example or to protect "operations" abroad.
More recently iirc The Tories denied they were talking to Sinn Fein/IRA re a peace deal - again honourable reasons for the lie.
I am sure there are more hence my it depends why he lied answer. I suspect parliament will not be at all happy whatever the reason and he is inbig trouble but you can lie for an honourable reason or a dishonourable reason. i do not know, yet, which of these this falls into.

Well obviously you are naive enough to believe that police officers who infiltrate and act as agent provocateurs don't encourage illegal acts.

What would be the point in being an agent provacateur if you dont provoke?...even the coppers are not that dim or ineffective.
I asked if he thought it would have been peacful if the coppers were not in the crowd - that is not the same thing.
Of course they do it and probably did in this case as to why they bothered in this case I dont really know as there would have been trouble without their assistance.

I asked if he thought it would have been peacful if the coppers were not in the crowd

Well yeah fair enough, that's why I said : [i]"I think in this case Elfin is probably exaggerating the role of the police in encouraging violence"[/i]

It's interesting to see some people being so quick to give the police the benefit of the doubt btw, I'm not sure whether many would be equally quick to give demonstrators the same benefit of the doubt.

So Elfin if you saw off duty officers doing cocaine, have you reported them to the police? did you make any efforts to get them investigated?

You got to be fraking kidding me right? Do you still believe in fairy tales or are you being thick skulled on purpose? Where are you going to report the copper? To the police station. And guess what, the only thing that will do is for said copper to have your address. And make your life a living hell.

I agree too many people only support one side rather than see that both sides can do good or bad things during the protest/riot.

(Mr MC posting)

most of the paranoid conspiracy gibberish on this thread is not even worthy of comment. "Thick skulled", "fairy tales", what a well balanced and presented argument. To give you an example of what I've spent the last 2 years doing I was one of the main officers in this case (which involved months of, guess what, undercover work).

http://www.policeoracle.com/news/Police-Officer-And-PCSO-Sentenced_22119.html

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/09/2-police-on-drug-charges-115875-21583369/

As far as I'm concerned they should have gone to prison.
We have a confidential reporting line so cops can grass up cops, run by crime stoppers.

Theres no real point entering into a discussion with someone with such deeply entrenched, ideologically rather than empirically based views, but I thought I'd try bring a bit of balance and evidence for other readers. And now back to your original programming.

Good point badly made imo Mr MC. Leaving out the [i]"paranoid conspiracy gibberish on this thread"[/i] and generally hostile attitude, would have provided a more powerful post imo. It gives one the impression of a [i]"deeply entrenched"[/i] point of view.

Of course some might argue that the police infiltrating perfectly legal non-terrorist organisations, at huge cost to the tax payer, as Mark Kennedy did, represents 'conspiratorial paranoia' on the part of the police.

Theres no real point entering into a discussion with someone with such deeply entrenched, ideologically rather than empirically based views

Which is why I tend not to get involved in debates with police officers... 😉

It's interesting to see some people being so quick to give the police the benefit of the doubt

It is, isn't it? Almost as though some people believe the police are beyond scrutiny or above suspicion....

So Elfin if you saw off duty officers doing cocaine, have you reported them to the police

What, and do myself out of a few lines?? 😉

I think Juan answered this pretty succinctly. I see how the police operate in the 'real world'; not in some propaganda TV programme or publicity stunt. Believe it or not, I regularly talk to coppers in relation to crime prevention in my local area. In fact information I and other residents have given them has led to a concerted effort to actually deal with crime locally, rather than sit in 'consultation meetings' spouting all sorts of promises. Stop talking and get and do yer bloody jobs...

I find the defence of your profession admirable. That you feel the need to defend it, speaks volumes.

And bizarrely, the most vociferous critics of the police I know aren't Sink Estate Scum like my good self, but in fact lawyers, university lecturers and professors, doctors and even, believe it or not, A JUDGE. Hardly people with an axe to grind because they've been stopped and searched far too often, or nicked for a cheeky spliff, or done for having no tax. Quite the opposite in fact. Why would such educated, intelligent and affluent people have such attitudes, do you wonder?

Could it be, could it be, possibly, that not all coppers are saints? D'you think? Hmm?

Pfft.

And now back to your original programming.

Sorry, but you must have mistaken me for someone who's been to Hendon...

 

PC Kille was sentenced to 12 months in prison, [b]suspended for two years[/b], for each of the following counts: one count of wilful misconduct in a public office by seeking to obtain controlled drugs, one count of misconduct in a public office by wilfully neglecting to perform his duty as required and one count of possession of cocaine. He was also ordered to serve 3[b]00 hours community service[/b] within 12 months. The sentences will run concurrently.

PCSO Slavin was also sentenced to 12 months in prison, [b]suspended for two years[/b], for each of the following counts: one count of wilful misconduct in a public office by seeking to obtain and supply controlled drugs, one count of misconduct by wilfully neglecting to do her duty as required and one count of possession of cocaine with intent to supply. She has been ordered to serve [b]100 hours community service[/b] within 12 months. The sentences will run concurrently.

How terrible! How will they cope with such harsh sentences??? 😯 The poor lambs....

What a joke. I know 'ordinary' people who've gone down for far less. And they're not in a job where the principle task is to ensure that the Law is upheld...

Yup but sentencing is nowt to do with the police. One thing that frustrates copper is the appalling sentencing courts hand out but we can't do diddly squat. As already said they should have gone to prison.

Oh come on. We all know the police get away with murder...

[img] [/img]

I have first-hand knowledge of police frustration with sentencing. It pays to have friends who can get you decent lawyers. 🙂

What does that have to do with sentencing power or original thread??

The killers of JCM escaped justice because their colleagues lied for them.

Tell me exactly why I should respect the police. Isn't respect something to be earned?

In my experience, and that of many others I know, the police have done very little to deserve such respect.

Funny, that on here people can freely slag off supermarket staff, or whoever, but criticise the police and you're met with a vehement reaction. Funny, that...

Maybe people actually do believe the propaganda. Maybe 'Police, Camera, Action!' actually works!

ernie_lynch - Member
It gives one the impression of a "deeply entrenched" point of view.

ohhh the irony.... 😉

Calm down elf. You experience of the cops may just be slightly different to the rest of STW .

I have had only positive experiences with the police personally, probably because I don't tend to do much wrong. While I'm more than aware of instances of naff policing, heavy handed police etc, to assume they purposefully deploy people to cause trouble is stretching it, to say the least.

The police have my respect (despite a recent [s]brush[/s] impact with them). It's the crowds of baying, goading morons I have more trouble having respect for.

What about the experiences and opinions of my nice law-abiding highly educated middle class friends though? Don't they count?

And the thing is, right; if, as is evident, quite a number of coppers are criminal scumbaygs, why should I trust the police or indeed have any respect for them? How do I know that the copper I'm dealing with isn't a rapist or murderer? Like anyone else I may encounter. Are all coppers as pure as the driven snow? The evidence seems to suggest otherwise, M'Lud...

I mean, y'know, apparently all 'Gypos' are thieves/benefit cheats/wife beaters, right? No? Isn't that how it works on STW?

Funny, that on here people can freely slag off 29er riders, or whoever, but criticise Chipps and mates and you're met with a vehement reaction. Funny, that...

fixed it for you 😉

Only if they are white 😉

What about the experiences and opinions of my nice law-abiding highly educated middle class friends though?

are these the one who violently object to being kettled?

They are mostly white, Jeremy. Is that important? I don't know...

are these the one who violently object to being kettled?

Erm well in one case particularly, yes. And?

I'm extracting the urine Elf.

And the thing is, right; if, as is evident, quite a number of coppers are criminal scumbaygs, why should I trust them or indeed have any respect for them? How do I know that the copper I'm dealing with isn't a rapist or murderer? Like anyone else I may encounter. Are all coppers as pure as the driven snow? The evidence seems to suggest otherwise, M'Lud...

I'd love to know who you would phone when you needed urgent police type help...... your

nice law-abiding highly educated middle class friends

No I phone the police, BnD. On 999. And then the crime I am reporting gets 'prioritised'. A young lad got stabbed here recently; the ambulance was here in minutes, as were the fire brigade (???); the police took 35 minutes to attend. When another lad locked himself inside the off licence to try to hide from a gang who were threatening to stab him him, it took 25 minutes for anyone to attend, despite THREE squad cars driving past the place during that time.

Not particularly confidence-inspiring, is it? I could give you thousands more examples, but I'm just talking about a couple of recent incidents.

are these the one who violently object to being kettled?

Erm well in one case particularly, yes. And?

aaahhh obvious justification for assaulting police officers, because....

they are being used as a political tool.

Guilty of lying, falsifying statements, fabricating evidence, murder, rape, drug-dealing, all sorts.

I've seen the local plods up to all kind of dodginess

If you don't know who's really pulling your strings, then more fool you

No I phone the police

I thought so

Good to see you're finally starting to understand, BnD. 🙂

I thought so

Yep. And I feel I've the right to complain about the poor service I receive, same as I would in a restaurant, for example, you know? What, are the police somehow exempt from criticism?

Difference is, I can avoid a particular restaurant in future. I don't have a choice with the police....

no, I don't know why you didn't use your "special" number

[i]So, are you denying that agents provocateurs are being employed by Her Maj's Babylon, then, BnD?[/i]

how much are they paying you? Do you get a P60 is is it just cash?

Elf

Have you OD'ed on the Tangfastics tonight?

Yep. And I feel I've the right to complain about the poor service I receive, same as I would in a restaurant, for example, you know? What, are the police somehow exempt from criticism?

does STW get better results than

http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/Pages/default.aspx

https://secure.met.police.uk/complaints/?c=1

http://www.london.gov.uk/contact-us/policing-enquiries

or is it a case of a

of a "deeply entrenched" point of view.

You know what, the shop downstairs has sold out!

I know, I know; it's totally unacceptable. My MP is already aware.

Broken Britain....

[quote> http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/Pages/default.aspx

https://secure.met.police.uk/complaints/?c=1

http://www.london.gov.uk/contact-us/policing-enquiries

Yeah; got anything that actually is 'independant'?

I prefer to tell the actual coppers directly what I think of their performance. Y'know; cut out the middle man?

Be quiet now I'm doing a beef stir-fry.

Yeah; got anything that actually is 'independant'?

http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/index.php

I prefer to tell the actual coppers directly what I think of their performance. Y'know; cut out the middle man?

helps pass the time when you are being kettled I suppose or is it when

In fact information I and other residents have given them has led to a [b]concerted effort[/b] to actually deal with crime locally, rather than sit in 'consultation meetings' spouting all sorts of promises. Stop talking and get and do yer bloody jobs...

I love it when a thread descends into a debate between two people 😀

I don't bother reading the posts, but I can feel the intensity.

......carry on.

I'm bored now actually; I've said my piece, I know I'm right (well we all know I'm right, let's face it), so as far as I'm concerned, the 'discussion' is over. There's nowt of interest for me to waste my time with anyway. I've far more important things to attend to right now, such as this beef stir-fry! Mm, tasty.

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