[Closed] Top Copper is a lying shyster- should he be jailed?

Junkyard - the reasons for him lying are immaterial - he cannot lie to parliament.

iirc you can lie to parliament and ministers can as there is a protocol/convention for this - there was debate mid 70's? on this - you could lie over operations involving secret service agents for example or to protect "operations" abroad.
More recently iirc The Tories denied they were talking to Sinn Fein/IRA re a peace deal - again honourable reasons for the lie.
I am sure there are more hence my it depends why he lied answer. I suspect parliament will not be at all happy whatever the reason and he is inbig trouble but you can lie for an honourable reason or a dishonourable reason. i do not know, yet, which of these this falls into.

Well obviously you are naive enough to believe that police officers who infiltrate and act as agent provocateurs don't encourage illegal acts.

What would be the point in being an agent provacateur if you dont provoke?...even the coppers are not that dim or ineffective.
I asked if he thought it would have been peacful if the coppers were not in the crowd - that is not the same thing.
Of course they do it and probably did in this case as to why they bothered in this case I dont really know as there would have been trouble without their assistance.

I asked if he thought it would have been peacful if the coppers were not in the crowd

Well yeah fair enough, that's why I said : [i]"I think in this case Elfin is probably exaggerating the role of the police in encouraging violence"[/i]

It's interesting to see some people being so quick to give the police the benefit of the doubt btw, I'm not sure whether many would be equally quick to give demonstrators the same benefit of the doubt.

So Elfin if you saw off duty officers doing cocaine, have you reported them to the police? did you make any efforts to get them investigated?

You got to be fraking kidding me right? Do you still believe in fairy tales or are you being thick skulled on purpose? Where are you going to report the copper? To the police station. And guess what, the only thing that will do is for said copper to have your address. And make your life a living hell.

I agree too many people only support one side rather than see that both sides can do good or bad things during the protest/riot.

(Mr MC posting)

most of the paranoid conspiracy gibberish on this thread is not even worthy of comment. "Thick skulled", "fairy tales", what a well balanced and presented argument. To give you an example of what I've spent the last 2 years doing I was one of the main officers in this case (which involved months of, guess what, undercover work).

http://www.policeoracle.com/news/Police-Officer-And-PCSO-Sentenced_22119.html

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/09/2-police-on-drug-charges-115875-21583369/

As far as I'm concerned they should have gone to prison.
We have a confidential reporting line so cops can grass up cops, run by crime stoppers.

Theres no real point entering into a discussion with someone with such deeply entrenched, ideologically rather than empirically based views, but I thought I'd try bring a bit of balance and evidence for other readers. And now back to your original programming.

Good point badly made imo Mr MC. Leaving out the [i]"paranoid conspiracy gibberish on this thread"[/i] and generally hostile attitude, would have provided a more powerful post imo. It gives one the impression of a [i]"deeply entrenched"[/i] point of view.

Of course some might argue that the police infiltrating perfectly legal non-terrorist organisations, at huge cost to the tax payer, as Mark Kennedy did, represents 'conspiratorial paranoia' on the part of the police.

Theres no real point entering into a discussion with someone with such deeply entrenched, ideologically rather than empirically based views

Which is why I tend not to get involved in debates with police officers... 😉

It's interesting to see some people being so quick to give the police the benefit of the doubt

It is, isn't it? Almost as though some people believe the police are beyond scrutiny or above suspicion....

So Elfin if you saw off duty officers doing cocaine, have you reported them to the police

What, and do myself out of a few lines?? 😉

I think Juan answered this pretty succinctly. I see how the police operate in the 'real world'; not in some propaganda TV programme or publicity stunt. Believe it or not, I regularly talk to coppers in relation to crime prevention in my local area. In fact information I and other residents have given them has led to a concerted effort to actually deal with crime locally, rather than sit in 'consultation meetings' spouting all sorts of promises. Stop talking and get and do yer bloody jobs...

I find the defence of your profession admirable. That you feel the need to defend it, speaks volumes.

And bizarrely, the most vociferous critics of the police I know aren't Sink Estate Scum like my good self, but in fact lawyers, university lecturers and professors, doctors and even, believe it or not, A JUDGE. Hardly people with an axe to grind because they've been stopped and searched far too often, or nicked for a cheeky spliff, or done for having no tax. Quite the opposite in fact. Why would such educated, intelligent and affluent people have such attitudes, do you wonder?

Could it be, could it be, possibly, that not all coppers are saints? D'you think? Hmm?

Pfft.

And now back to your original programming.

Sorry, but you must have mistaken me for someone who's been to Hendon...

 

PC Kille was sentenced to 12 months in prison, [b]suspended for two years[/b], for each of the following counts: one count of wilful misconduct in a public office by seeking to obtain controlled drugs, one count of misconduct in a public office by wilfully neglecting to perform his duty as required and one count of possession of cocaine. He was also ordered to serve 3[b]00 hours community service[/b] within 12 months. The sentences will run concurrently.

PCSO Slavin was also sentenced to 12 months in prison, [b]suspended for two years[/b], for each of the following counts: one count of wilful misconduct in a public office by seeking to obtain and supply controlled drugs, one count of misconduct by wilfully neglecting to do her duty as required and one count of possession of cocaine with intent to supply. She has been ordered to serve [b]100 hours community service[/b] within 12 months. The sentences will run concurrently.

How terrible! How will they cope with such harsh sentences??? 😯 The poor lambs....

What a joke. I know 'ordinary' people who've gone down for far less. And they're not in a job where the principle task is to ensure that the Law is upheld...

Yup but sentencing is nowt to do with the police. One thing that frustrates copper is the appalling sentencing courts hand out but we can't do diddly squat. As already said they should have gone to prison.

Oh come on. We all know the police get away with murder...

[img] [/img]

I have first-hand knowledge of police frustration with sentencing. It pays to have friends who can get you decent lawyers. 🙂

What does that have to do with sentencing power or original thread??

The killers of JCM escaped justice because their colleagues lied for them.

Tell me exactly why I should respect the police. Isn't respect something to be earned?

In my experience, and that of many others I know, the police have done very little to deserve such respect.

Funny, that on here people can freely slag off supermarket staff, or whoever, but criticise the police and you're met with a vehement reaction. Funny, that...

Maybe people actually do believe the propaganda. Maybe 'Police, Camera, Action!' actually works!

ernie_lynch - Member
It gives one the impression of a "deeply entrenched" point of view.

ohhh the irony.... 😉

Calm down elf. You experience of the cops may just be slightly different to the rest of STW .

I have had only positive experiences with the police personally, probably because I don't tend to do much wrong. While I'm more than aware of instances of naff policing, heavy handed police etc, to assume they purposefully deploy people to cause trouble is stretching it, to say the least.

The police have my respect (despite a recent [s]brush[/s] impact with them). It's the crowds of baying, goading morons I have more trouble having respect for.

What about the experiences and opinions of my nice law-abiding highly educated middle class friends though? Don't they count?

And the thing is, right; if, as is evident, quite a number of coppers are criminal scumbaygs, why should I trust the police or indeed have any respect for them? How do I know that the copper I'm dealing with isn't a rapist or murderer? Like anyone else I may encounter. Are all coppers as pure as the driven snow? The evidence seems to suggest otherwise, M'Lud...

I mean, y'know, apparently all 'Gypos' are thieves/benefit cheats/wife beaters, right? No? Isn't that how it works on STW?

Funny, that on here people can freely slag off 29er riders, or whoever, but criticise Chipps and mates and you're met with a vehement reaction. Funny, that...

fixed it for you 😉

Only if they are white 😉

What about the experiences and opinions of my nice law-abiding highly educated middle class friends though?

are these the one who violently object to being kettled?

They are mostly white, Jeremy. Is that important? I don't know...

are these the one who violently object to being kettled?

Erm well in one case particularly, yes. And?

I'm extracting the urine Elf.

And the thing is, right; if, as is evident, quite a number of coppers are criminal scumbaygs, why should I trust them or indeed have any respect for them? How do I know that the copper I'm dealing with isn't a rapist or murderer? Like anyone else I may encounter. Are all coppers as pure as the driven snow? The evidence seems to suggest otherwise, M'Lud...

I'd love to know who you would phone when you needed urgent police type help...... your

nice law-abiding highly educated middle class friends

No I phone the police, BnD. On 999. And then the crime I am reporting gets 'prioritised'. A young lad got stabbed here recently; the ambulance was here in minutes, as were the fire brigade (???); the police took 35 minutes to attend. When another lad locked himself inside the off licence to try to hide from a gang who were threatening to stab him him, it took 25 minutes for anyone to attend, despite THREE squad cars driving past the place during that time.

Not particularly confidence-inspiring, is it? I could give you thousands more examples, but I'm just talking about a couple of recent incidents.

are these the one who violently object to being kettled?

Erm well in one case particularly, yes. And?

aaahhh obvious justification for assaulting police officers, because....

they are being used as a political tool.

Guilty of lying, falsifying statements, fabricating evidence, murder, rape, drug-dealing, all sorts.

I've seen the local plods up to all kind of dodginess

If you don't know who's really pulling your strings, then more fool you

No I phone the police

I thought so

Good to see you're finally starting to understand, BnD. 🙂

I thought so

Yep. And I feel I've the right to complain about the poor service I receive, same as I would in a restaurant, for example, you know? What, are the police somehow exempt from criticism?

Difference is, I can avoid a particular restaurant in future. I don't have a choice with the police....

no, I don't know why you didn't use your "special" number

[i]So, are you denying that agents provocateurs are being employed by Her Maj's Babylon, then, BnD?[/i]

how much are they paying you? Do you get a P60 is is it just cash?

Elf

Have you OD'ed on the Tangfastics tonight?

Yep. And I feel I've the right to complain about the poor service I receive, same as I would in a restaurant, for example, you know? What, are the police somehow exempt from criticism?

does STW get better results than

http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/Pages/default.aspx

https://secure.met.police.uk/complaints/?c=1

http://www.london.gov.uk/contact-us/policing-enquiries

or is it a case of a

of a "deeply entrenched" point of view.

You know what, the shop downstairs has sold out!

I know, I know; it's totally unacceptable. My MP is already aware.

Broken Britain....

[quote> http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/Pages/default.aspx

https://secure.met.police.uk/complaints/?c=1

http://www.london.gov.uk/contact-us/policing-enquiries

Yeah; got anything that actually is 'independant'?

I prefer to tell the actual coppers directly what I think of their performance. Y'know; cut out the middle man?

Be quiet now I'm doing a beef stir-fry.

Yeah; got anything that actually is 'independant'?

http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/index.php

I prefer to tell the actual coppers directly what I think of their performance. Y'know; cut out the middle man?

helps pass the time when you are being kettled I suppose or is it when

In fact information I and other residents have given them has led to a [b]concerted effort[/b] to actually deal with crime locally, rather than sit in 'consultation meetings' spouting all sorts of promises. Stop talking and get and do yer bloody jobs...

I love it when a thread descends into a debate between two people 😀

I don't bother reading the posts, but I can feel the intensity.

......carry on.

I'm bored now actually; I've said my piece, I know I'm right (well we all know I'm right, let's face it), so as far as I'm concerned, the 'discussion' is over. There's nowt of interest for me to waste my time with anyway. I've far more important things to attend to right now, such as this beef stir-fry! Mm, tasty.

X

Well despite my [i]deeply entrenched[/i] attitude you still have not answered me. Where should I go? Can you guarantee that I won't be met with a gun or a baton within a day of reporting the cop?
I wouldn't trust a cop for nowt. Look what happened in France in 2005. What do you really think happened? Explain to me how someone with non prior experience with the justice (albeit non white) got dead in a police car because apparently he tried to resist arrest (how can you resist arrest once in the van is beyond my understanding)?
I have a sport relative who's a cop. Each time he got got over 200 km/h on his motorcycle by patrol he got away showing he cop card and saying he was going to pick up he gun.
And I am indeed not going to tell you about the "joke" he use to perform in the van with a suspect, because they are obviously going to be deeply entrenched opinions...
I can understand you want to protect your kind, but please get ral for a second.

I think you are making a mistake comparing the British police with the French police Juan. Sure the British police is far from prefect, but it is still undoubtedly amongst the best in the world. The police, along with the BBC, is one of the few remaining things which imo Britain can still be truly proud of.

Having said that, I tend to agree with you. I too, wouldn't be keen to walk into a police station and grass a copper up. In fact I very much doubt that I would, unless it was for an extremely serious crime such as murder or rape. You would be unlikely to be doing yourself any favours imo.

provoking violence doesnt seem to be the only issue with met cops its keeping their truncheons in their pants they have a hard time with....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jan/19/undercover-policeman-married-activist-spy#start-of-comments
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/8262746/Mark-Kennedy-15-other-undercover-police-infiltrated-green-movement.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12247675

and having a close friend as a copper whos got himself into trouble with the ladies
maybe its the uniform/sex/power thing?

Never heard of Crimestoppers. Dealt with very seriously and as for said copper getting your address and making your life hell .. now I think you're living in cloud cuckoo land!!!

anyway let's face it every singel police bashing thread that has been on STW world recently relates to The Met .. and I don't work there! Phew .. 😉

Never heard of Crimestoppers

So you agree that stopping a copper or walking onto a police station to report a PC wouldn't be a good idea then ? .......best to do it anonymously through a charity ?

as for said copper getting your address and making your life hell .. now I think you're living in cloud cuckoo land!!!

So there's no bent coppers then ?

You don't know how much of a relief it is for me to know that.

Nope never said that. I was telling you the details of a confidential service (as so many people here are anti) to encourage you to report bad/illegal behaviour within the police to clear out the bad eggs.

Kimbers, people having affairs is common in all walks of life, I don't think it's more prevelant in the police than normal offices jobs, nursing etc. I admit the situations it sometimes occur in may be wrong but as for the actual affairs themselves. ...

I was telling you the details of a confidential service (as so many people here are anti)

You could have just emphasised the fact that no one has anything to worry about when reporting a copper. If you believe that to be true of course.

Like anything Ernie I imagine it depends what you are alleging they have done, I have already agreed there are bad eggs out there .. like in ALL walks of life, hence why I am suggesting Crimestoppers for those that feel uncomfortable going into the SDO.

Yeah I think that's the issue here MC, not everyone feels "comfortable" with the old bill. Because with the greatest respect, you gotta be "living in cloud cuckoo land" if you think everyone trusts coppers completely.