MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
I am absolutely fed up with reading stories of airgun mis-use in the local and national press. In the last week I've read of a teenager being shot in the face by an airgun "sniper." He may have suffered permanent nerve damage which would mean he'd be unable to smile. Also, a cat that was shot dead after being hit by multiple shots and today I read about some more swans being badly injured by airgun pellets.
Why is it that swans are so ofter a target for these idiots?
I used to shoot air rifles competetively but gave up a couple of years ago as more and more undesirable characters turned up at the local club.
Modern air rifles can be magazine fed, bolt action loaded, extremely accurate and can produce muzzle velocities (in .177) of 800 feet per second. And can be bought by anybody with no vetting or reason for ownership.
I'm all for a free society but it has to be proportional to general attitude. I think it's time that airguns are put on Section 1 and require a firearms certificate.
*awaits jets of hot flame*
I know a man that drowned his wife in their garden pond. Should we demand tighter control of water features?
fair enough as usual it's not the item but the user that is the problem
can't really argue against, why should airguns be treated differently from firearms?
mrmo - currently, airguns are not considered "especially dangerous."
Perhaps it's time to reconsider this. Things have come on a hell of a lot since my grandad's Webley Jaguar.
My neighbours ****less child was shooting pellets into my garden, aiming at my cat. Caught him doing it once. Haven't found any pellets in my garden since.
I know a man that drowned his wife in their garden pond. Should we demand tighter control of water features?
NO!
I'd like to keep that option open now you've mentioned it.
My old Webley that my Dad had as a kid was far more powerful then any modern one at the time as it was built without any restrictions.
It's sadly down to a few people abusing them, if there's no air rifles they'll just use something else.
My neighbours ****less child was shooting pellets into my garden, aiming at my cat. Caught him doing it once. Haven't found any pellets in my garden since.
Did you throw the kid in your pond?
I was shot the other week commuting from work.
No I shot him in the face with a Muslamic Gay Swan bazooka.
Well i guess it might have something to do with whether there is a serious and widespread issue of airgun owners acting dangerously, or a small number of high profile incidents, as per most things. I don't have the figures to hand, but i am pretty sure BASC will have some background on this proportion of incidents vs. number of owners?
Regarding the advances in technology, fair enough on multi-shot rifles, this might be worth more thought from the industry/ authorities (although of course, one shot at a inappropriate target is too many). As for power increases, well this is a set limit. It doesn't matter how future-tech your airgun is, if you go over the power threshold (12 foot pounds for rifles, 6 for pistols) you require a firearms certificate.
So that would apply to airguns from the 1950's and today. I don't think pellets have come on a massive amount over that time (still a small lump of lead basically) either.
I think maybe compulsory membership of a club or BASC, which includes legal advice and insurance, might be the next step and could be a requirement before sale. This is basically un-vetted licensing and wouldnt require a massive increase in the cost of regulating firearms certificates for much more dangerous shotguns, rifles etc.
My old Webley that my Dad has as a kid was far more powerful then any modern one at the time as it was built without any restrictions.
I hope it's not still around then as it is probably classed as a firearm and without a firearms licence the owner would be in a lot of trouble if caught.
I have an Air Arms S200 that I use for rabbit control. It's mind numbingly accurate and the muzzle veolicity can be increased over the legal limit in less than 20 seconds.
I agree, there really should be stricter controls.
not sure if they should be banned but thinking back, I'm suprised how many of my mates had air guns when I was a kid.
A firearm would not be at the top of my list of gifts for an 11 year old.
I hope it's not still around then as it is probably classed as a firearm and without a firearms licence the owner would be in a lot of trouble if caught.
Oh noes!
Nope it was almost 30 years old when I got it. I used it for about another 5 years or more before it exploded the springs and lever all one the place.
Air guns have been being mis-used since the year dot. My better half was shot with one, my father some 30 years earlier. I've been shot with a shotgun loaded with rice. Nothing I see suggests an increase local to me at least?
It's the user, therein lies yer problem.
We used to fire blu-tack at each other!
Bikebouy is therefore 100% correct
My neighbours ****less child was shooting pellets into my garden, aiming at my cat. Caught him doing it once. Haven't found any pellets in my garden since.
Have your neighbours found their child yet? And is that why you call yourself 'Lifer'?
I don't think you should deprive your children, and your children's children the opportunity to shoot pigeons off your neighbours fence.
Well many of the fun things of my youth are/will disappear - sheath knives, airguns, catapults, riding without helmets, swimming in rivers/lakes unsupervised, solo rock climbing....where/when will it stop? More cotton wool please....
Glad that my younger son went on geog field trip to study coastal features this week. After the formal work they all enjoyed climbing the sea-stacks. Good job H&S were nowhere to be seen.
As much as I enjoy shooting (both professionally and for recreation), I am very. very keen on making sure that the people that own them use them responsibly. That's possibly the reason that I won't get one for my nephew yet. He need a bit of maturity before that happens.
Air gun owner, used for vermin (fur and feathered types) control and occasional can shooting. The gun is a gas powered bolt action job with an 8 shot magazine, and I'm astonished that I could walk into the shop buy it an walk away giving nothing more than some money and my name. I don't think they should be banned, there are legitimate users, but should be licensed. I'd go with all new purchases needing a license and unlicensed ownership carrying a hefty jail sentence
I haven't ever noticed them to be a problem. In fact, I haven't noticed them, full stop.
On one hand, I accept that the UK is a densely populated country, and that there is not all that much place to play with airguns safely, so there may not be all that much point to owning one.
On the other hand, we are going to regulate everything fun right out of existence. That is, after all, the British way. I mean, if it's not airguns, it will be something else.
So on balance I say leave airguns alone.
Air guns have been being mis-used since the year dot. My better half was shot with one, my father some 30 years earlier. I've been shot with a shotgun loaded with rice. Nothing I see suggests an increase local to me at least?
Do you own a caravan and an untaxed, un-MOT'ed Transit?
Well many of the fun things of my youth are/will disappear - sheath knives, airguns, catapults, riding without helmets, swimming in rivers/lakes unsupervised, solo rock climbing....where/when will it stop? More cotton wool please....
I agree to the greatest extent, though common sense does seem to be falling rather sharply and a knee jerk reaction like the OP occurs due to the now well puclicised nature of such incidents.
Glad that my younger son went on geop field trip to study coastal features this week. After the formal work they all enjoyed climbing the sea-stacks. Good job H&S were nowhere to be seen.
Not sure you'd have said that if he hadn't come back from it because H&S were nowhere to be seen.
The problem with all objects that are easily determinable as weapons is, I reckon, once they are in your hands the testosterone or something goes crazy and some peoples brains just get overridden by the urge to hit things/pets/people with them.
I'd like to see all civilian ownership of anything that could be classified as a weapon banned. Improvised weapons don't hold the same issue imho, but you can bet that little do-gooders will push the envelope there.
Weapons are for war, there are no other reasonable purpose for them.
Do you own a caravan and an untaxed, un-MOT'ed Transit?
No 😀 One was in a commuter village in rural lancashire, one was in the centre of liverpool and one was in a farmers field near wigan. 🙂
mrdestructo - Member
The problem with all objects that are easily determinable as weapons is, I reckon, once they are in your hands the testosterone or something goes crazy and some peoples brains just get overridden by the urge to hit things/pets/people with them.
Your kitchen must be a pretty scary place. 😉
I'd like to see all civilian ownership of anything that could be classified as a weapon banned.
I've got a slender metal pen sitting on my desk. I could happily pierce someone's neck with this, or perhaps even their skull if I thrust it in hard enough. Would you like to ban pen ownership?
mrdestructo - MemberThe problem with all objects that are easily determinable as weapons is, I reckon, once they are in your hands the testosterone or something goes crazy and some peoples brains just get overridden by the urge to hit things/pets/people with them.
I'd like to see all civilian ownership of anything that could be classified as a weapon banned. Improvised weapons don't hold the same issue imho, but you can bet that little do-gooders will push the envelope there.
Weapons are for war, there are no other reasonable purpose for them.
Steady now, jerking your knees like that could have someone's eye out
I'd go with all new purchases needing a license and unlicensed ownership carrying a hefty jail sentence
The people going around shooting swans, cats and passers by won't really care about a licence.
Black widow catapult. Loads more power than your namby air rifles. A lad at school had his humerous broken by one.
Weapons are for war, there are no other reasonable purpose for them.
What about shooting pidgeons?
FWIW some kind of licence is probably a good step. Doesn't need to be as arduous as a full on firearms licence, but more arduous than rod licence for fishing. Just a database of name + address and a £100 annual permit would be enough to put off anyone not doing it as a hobby or a job. The problem is the 1000's that are probably already arround (and the tiny fraction in the 'wrong' hands).
+1, most air rifles would do more damage whielded as a club than a gunBlack widow catapult. Loads more power than your namby air rifles. A lad at school had his humerous broken by one.
Weapons are for war, there are no other reasonable purpose for them.
That may be so, but war can teach you a lot of things. Especially if it is war on old fizzy drink cans. There is little more satisfying in life than dotting the 'i' in Pepsi with a .177 calibre BB from a good distance.
A lad at school had his humerous broken by one.
I had one skim/richoet off of my hip. Jesus the vibration/pain was crazy.
LOVED THEM. Ace fun. I wont go into too much detail 😆
The people going around shooting swans, cats and passers by won't really care about a licence.
No, but it stops the spread right now, and over time the numbers in the wild will fall. The people shooing swans, etc may not care about a license, but they may may care about some jail time, and their neighbours might be happy to see the get it.
We used to shoot at toy plastic soldiers. It's just like real war and they were real and really far away... accepting that in scale terms we had some silly caliber rounds.
There is little more satisfying in life than dotting the 'i' in Pepsi with a .177 calibre BB from a good distance.
Shooting the heads off matchsticks from about 20' was my favourite.
My car has been shot twice by people with air rifles.
I would like to see ownership of these weapons tightened up.
There is little more satisfying in life than dotting the 'i' in Pepsi with a .177 calibre BB from a good distance.
Finding a stash of eggs of unknown vintage because one of the hens has decided not to lay in the coop.
Putting the eggs on the bird feeder table.
Putting the o in crow
Tut tut!
We're going to see a lot of one pops in the "improvised" weapons area here aren't we? A pen? Clearly improvised, unless it's got a bullet in it. Organising a "tin can alley" firing range? Not a problem if it's private property and your rounds aren't going past into public property. Carrying and firing an air rifle is still illegal on public property right? You go down to your woods and start blatting away and you're in trouble.
I think we need a survey here, did I miss any options? :
1) I've served in the forces and think they should be banned
2) I've served in the forces and think they should be regulated.
3) I've served in a civilian firearms unit and think they should be banned.
4) I've served in a civilian firearms unit and think they should be regulated
5) Get orf my land! I'm a farmer and my shotgun is for pests.
6) I'm a cadet/scout with plenty of overseen training and they're okay on the range.
7) I'm a civilian and I like to shoot guns at the gun club
8) I'm a civilian and I like to shoot guns at the gun club, but if my wife leaves me, I get laid off, there's a family dispute, then I'm going to massacre everyone then kill myself at a beauty spot.
9) I'm a civilian and think they should be regulated.
10) I'm a civilian and think they should be banned.
11) I'm the ghost of an 8 year old that found daddies gun in the cupboard and shot myself, I think guns are cool.
12) Under the Second Amendment I reserve the right to own as many guns as I want, form militias, and....(**** off yank/tin foil hat wearer)
Weapons are for war, there are no other reasonable purpose for them.
Weapons can be great fun for target shooting. I did it for a large chunk of my youth with no intention of killing or hurting anything.
My mum confiscated my Black Widow catapult after she found out I'd been pinging stones at a treehouse in the woods occupied by kids from another street. 🙁
I'm willing to bet bicycles killed and injured more people in the UK last year than air rifles.
The reason air guns aren't controlled as much as shotguns, and shotguns aren't controlled as much as Section1 Firearms...is to do with lethality at range. A legal limit air rifle is rarely lethal at any range to a human (although it can be/has been), a shotgun (firing sporting ammo, not Section 1 ammo) is rarely lethal over say 50 yards to a human, a firearm can be lethal (even .22 rimfire) to many miles.
I grew up near Wimbledon Common, the birthday of competitive shooting in the UK (NRA headquarters of yesteryear), my local school had a .22 rimfire range in their loft, and I shot air rifles with my father and with Scouts. All my friends also had air rifles, and we'd often arrange informal shoots in each others back gardens. My youngest has just started air rifle shooting and loves it.
Ban air rifles? Don't be wet!
coffeeking - Member
Not sure you'd have said that if he hadn't come back from it because H&S were nowhere to be seen.
Life is all about identifying, understanding, taking and managing risks of some sort. You can't learn how to do this by wrapping everyone in cotton wool. What a sad life that would be. (I thanked the teacher for her common sense approach!)
This is a MTB forum after all - or is that not a potentially dangerous [s]sport,[/s] sorry, pastime 😉
Weapons are for war, there are no other reasonable purpose for them.
So you'd ban archery, javelin, discuss, hammer, darts and all shooting disciplines? But not cars? Right, I am minded to quote Jeff Cooper here
"…those who latch on to an unreasonable notion and thereafter refuse to listen to any further discussion of it have problems that are more amenable to psychiatry than to argument."
yes guns they are great for shooting things and erm shooting things and erm shooting things.
Whilst it may be misue to shoot something with a gun we [ polite middle clas society] would prefer you not to it is obvious, if we allow gun ownership, that this will happen
It takes both a bad user and the tool to result in a shooting - remove one and you remove the problem. I would argue it is easier to remove the gun than the problem user but I guess you could licence it
you can decide yourself whether this price is worth paying in the need to own firearms
EDIT : the cars argument is spurious i could kill you with a spoon if the need arose however the guns sole design purpose its to put a projectile into the body of someoen with the intention of killing it. if this was the cars sole purpose it would be a good point otherwise it is just silly. You will be telling me all gun murders are accidents next and that they were not designed just to hurt, maim and kill,
wow gun nut calls those who oppose him nuts.
http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/21789-the-root-of-the-evil-by-jeff-cooper/
aye referring to folk as mentally ill whoi oppose you is indeed th eheight of being ameniable to discourse and debate innit 🙄
coined the term hoplophobia over twenty years ago, not out of
pretension but in the sincere belief that we should recognize a very
peculiar sociological attitude for what it is -- a more or less
hysterical neurosis rather than a legitimate political position..
there is lots more there as well as some trully dreadful analogies that would make STW proud
What has brought this on, have they managed to ban everything else that upsets you?
I taught my three sons how to use air rifles, and are happy to let them use them unsupervised.
Life is all about identifying, understanding, taking and managing risks of some sort. You can't learn how to do this by wrapping everyone in cotton wool. What a sad life that would be. (I thanked the teacher for her common sense approach!)This is a MTB forum after all - or is that not a potentially dangerous sport, sorry, pastime
In case you didn't know, H&S is all about identifying, understanding and managing risks. It's not about removing them entirely or banning things that are dangerous. It's about ensuring people know what the risks are and how to deal with them. Unfortunately H&S officers are rarely well placed to articulate this and those below them in ranking see it as a problem to be avoided rather than a sane process to follow. The teacher will have performed a H&S assessment and rightly assessed and controlled the risks, if she didn't I'd be worried as that suggests she just does what she likes without thoughts about the consequences.
the guns sole design purpose its to put a projectile into the body of someoen with the intention of killing it.
No it isn't. This is true for [i]some[/i] guns, but not all. Target pistols, for example. Never designed to meet the purpose you mention.
coffeeking - Member
In case you didn't know, H&S is all about identifying, understanding and managing risks. It's not about removing them entirely or banning things that are dangerous. It's about ensuring people know what the risks are and how to deal with them.
Thanks, and please excuse my cynicism.
Unfortunately H&S officers are rarely well placed to articulate this and those below them in ranking see it as a problem to be avoided rather than a sane process to follow.
Ah, that explains things a bit better!! So excuse me for still being cynical. 😉
The teacher will have performed a H&S assessment and rightly assessed and controlled the risks, if she didn't I'd be worried as that suggests she just does what she likes without thoughts about the consequences.
No, she applied good old-fashioned common sense!
Anyway, back to banning things....
Guns are bad, m'kay?
No, she applied good old-fashioned common sense!
The great majority of H&S stuff I've ever come across (mostly in construction, mind) is just that. Really. Common Sense. What CK says is right though - too many people blame it when the reason they can't do something isn't anything at all to do with H&S.
Anyway...air guns? I see no need for them...I'd happily see them banned - but a lot would be to do with seeing the STW Violent Fantasist Club whinging about it for years. If I'm honest, it registers low on my give-a-shit-ometer. Boys and their toys and all that - let 'em play if they must.
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I'm saying nothing...
[url= http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/9708170.Crossbow_road_rage_nightmare/ ]cars, crossbows and kids in the back seat[/url]
My car has been shot twice by people with air rifles.
Had this with dads car. Drove it back from Liverpool late at night and the next morning went out and saw a flat tyre (pellet through the side wall), couple of holes in the wheel trim, hole in the bumper and a dent with no paint left next to the side indicator. Took the wheel trim off and a pellet fell out.
We had been in Liverpool for Nanas funeral and had parked the car down the road, not directly outside of the house to give room for the hearses. Suspect it was one of the neighbours pissed off we had parked outside their house. Fortunately we didn't have a blow out on the drive home to Lancashire.
Used to have good sensible fun with a mates pistol when I was a kid. We would set up a firing range in the garden and shoot apples and old cassettes. Then at uni we did similar but with things designed to shoot flames when shot - all safe and not to hurt anyone/thing.
As always it is the mis-use of things which taint them for everyone and sadly due to this I agree that something needs to be done. But with all the guns out there then it's going to be difficult to implement.
Not sure where I stand on this one.
My bro. and a couple of mates had hours of fun with air-rifles when we were youg, shooting targets, toy soldiers cans etc.
We were never tempted to shoot at any animals or certainly people though.
There are just some wrong'uns about, that'll find another way to cause harm if one method is removed. I don't know if banning air-guns would make a big difference long term.
Like all the fuss about survival knives a while back. If you feel the need to stab someone and can't get hold of a Rambo special, what's to stop you using a big kitchen knife?
Ive got a airgun that i use for rat control around the chicken run. Its just below the legal limit and at 30 yards the pellets bounce off the garden shed. Yet when i resurected a crossbow that i inherited and fired that at the shed it went through the shed and into the embankment at the end of the garden. No restrictions appear to apply to crossbows, yet the airgun is considered more dangerous it would seem.
Personally, i think its the use of the word "gun" in the description that gives people the wobblies. In addition to the rifle above,i have a target rifle which is about 4 f/lbs. You couldn't get it over that figure even if you tried. Its very accurate and very consistent, but you'd do more damage to someone if you threw the pellet at them. It was never designed to "kill" or harm anything, purley designed to put holes in paper at a distance.
Regarding the fellas incident with the flat tyre. I seriously doubt that a legal air rifle would puncture a car tyre. Not saying it didnt happen, but sounds like it was a lot more powerful that 12 ft/lbs.
Clong - Regarding the fellas incident with the flat tyre. I seriously doubt that a legal air rifle would puncture a car tyre. Not saying it didnt happen, but sounds like it was a lot more powerful that 12 ft/lbs.
+1
And can be bought by anybody with no vetting or reason for ownership.
but not legally.
My neighbours ****less child was shooting pellets into my garden, aiming at my cat.
If he was shooting into your garden without permission then my understanding is that legally that is "armed trespass" and a serious offence.
Regarding the fellas incident with the flat tyre. I seriously doubt that a legal air rifle would puncture a car tyre. Not saying it didnt happen, but sounds like it was a lot more powerful that 12 ft/lbs.
Probably. But it was still an air powered gun of some sort that was being misused. If they didn't have that one and a legal one they would probably still act like that.
I wouldn't consider a crossbow less dangerous than an airgun/rifle. There is a lot of momentum in an arrow and just watch For Your Eyes Only to see how easy they kill! You are not allowed to hunt with them in the UK are you?
Not allowed to hunt with any type of bow in the UK.
Would much rather (as I was when messing about as a kid) get shot by an air rifle than a modern bow. My 40lb recurve will put a carbon arrow through a pretty solid (certainly way more solid than human flesh) 6" thick straw target boss at 90m.
slainte 😐 rob
Lets ban hot hatch backs as well. There is no way that tis idea could be ignored if airguns are banned. They kill or injure more people each year. So do step ladders.
The ban idea is the usual moronic impulse by those who don't thnk things through and cannot see outside their own interest sphere.
Thing is it is hard to ban something thats unregulated. There must be millions of them out there but who knows. If they became illegal 99.9% would stya that way not declared.
Sometime back the grinning idiots gang decided to ban Brocock ait pistol which had each pellet inside its own air charged shell. They loked a bit like a real live round. Can't remember the exact number but I think getting on for 20,000 had been sold. A few were added to FAC's and very few, less than 100?, were handed into to be destroyed. Now the rest are still there but underground. Thats was clever wasn't it?
I'm an airgun shooter (I shoot HFT) and while personally it wouldn't bother me if there was some kind of registration system for airguns I suspect it's fairly pointless. What's required is that the existing laws are applied heavily in situations where the law is broken - e.g. illegal use of airguns, guns over 12 ft/lb without holding a FAC.
On the subject or crossbows - anyone that thinks they're less dangerous that airguns is kidding themselves. An average crossbow generates way more power than a UK legal airgun.
Sometime back the grinning idiots gang decided to ban Brocock ait pistol which had each pellet inside its own air charged shell. They loked a bit like a real live round. Can't remember the exact number but I think getting on for 20,000 had been sold. A few were added to FAC's and very few, less than 100?, were handed into to be destroyed. Now the rest are still there but underground. Thats was clever wasn't it?
If I recally correctly the existing owners were allowed to keep them (and some kind of license was issued) but they can't be sold to anyone else.
This very evening my brother and his mate are up at the industrial unit ridding the area of a squirrel infestation..
Rentokil have waltzed off with £350 and zero kills.. I have faith in my little bro's airgun skillz dem.. he once shot the neighbours kid from over 80 yards FFS!
An airgun and crossbow are very different in terms of lethal range.
An airgun fired at 45 deg will deliver a pellet that has negligible momentum whereas a crossbow (or recurve/long bow) bolt will descent with considerable momentum and killing potential.
I thought crossbow ownership was now illegal, sure I remember an amnesty several years ago.
[i]An airgun and crossbow are very different in terms of lethal range.[/i]
Although both could be bought (with weekly payments) out of my Mum's catalogue when I was a kid 🙂
Has TJ been on this thread yet?
Has TJ been on this thread yet?
No he's missed his train. 😀
🙂
OK, I'll come back later.
BAN BIKES. I know someone who nearly got knocked over by one and I think they should all be banned. They run red lights, IAM says so, they dont need a license and dont pay road tax. Why should they be allowed on roads n tracks that cars pay for? All they do is slow people downn when they are trying to get to work. At the very least everyone on them should need a license having passed a safety test first, then they need to be taxed just like cars if they want to use roads and cycle ways.
the usual rubbish air guns have a max power of 12 ftlbs .12 ftlbs in 1910 1950 1960 2013 is the same .Bats and hammers kill and maim more people in america than guns.I have chosen america because in the uk it is obvious that bats and hammers golf clubs kill and maim more people each year than guns .There are millions of air guns in the uk with very low death and injury rates.Your concern for our safety will be better spent controlling golf clubs,and idiots riding bikes on pavments
Oooh, the thread resurectionist troll.
good work that man.
[i]Bats and hammers kill and maim more people in america than guns[/i]
Ban bats. Or give them glasses.
Jackdaw. I used to shoot you with my 26ft/lb Rapid*
*on my ticket.
I thought crossbow ownership was now illegal, sure I remember an amnesty several years ago.
Cheese induced hallucination?
Love my air rifle, a permanent fixture stood in the corner of the room with strangely enough a pair of skis.
I had a shotgun licence but let that slip so the gun went.
Personally I know when/if I was shot which one I'd choose to be on the end of.
BTW its a vintage Weihrauch HW 35 .22 which is just right for pest control.