[Closed] This SNP rout.....

Spondoolick's have more credibility than AS's plan had 😉

My point/logic on Labour voters is that they resent the SNP characterising them as siding with the Tories and the fact the SNP is a direct threat to them electorially. A Labour voter in the UK does care about that. So the SNP is unpopular with them.

Borrowed words but its how I feel.

Am i alone in thinking it's not great the snp has 56 seats? Does one party represent the views of everyone in Scotland apart from shetlanders, orcadians and a few borderers? The snp won 50% of the vote on a 71% turnout. Half of voters didn't vote for them and another 30% didn't vote at all. That's not democratic, and incidentally, it's the same argument used by yes campaigners - that in scotland you never get the uk government you vote for. Half of scots are now represented in Westminster by a party they didn't vote for. I'm not blaming the snp - they can only work with the system they've got - rather it is the ineptitude of the other parties in Scotland to present any kind of viable alternative that's worrying. This result in Scotland and across the uk shows there is an urgent need for electoral reform - the sooner we get pr the better.

Either that or there needs to be one Scottish Unionist party to counter the SNP. Then it might be a fair competition.

On a related note, could a Leftist English Nationalist Party arise from the ashes of what was Labour?
Many I spoke to during indyref wanted Scotland to leave, several I have chatted to online today have mentioned that its time the English left concentrates on England.
Can a National Party in England be such without being hard right?
All the fascist/far right parties are also Unionists aren't they?

Good quote TP.

This result in Scotland and across the uk shows there is an urgent need for electoral reform - the sooner we get pr the better.

Don't hold your breath, given the Tories got a majority on 37% of the vote I can't really see them pushing for PR any time soon.

I'm all for PR. Parties will emerge that closer represent people views allowing a greater range of opinion that reflects the population.

There's the argument that the likes of UKIP will gain alot of seats, but that's a short term view, and I'm very much of the view that if you give them enough rope.. I think the change we would see over the longer term would be well worth it.

btw the scottish election next year will be interesting to see how strong SNP support is. Personally, I won't be voting for them.

PR and federalisation. Something along the lines of.
Scotland, Wale, NI, Northumbria, Mercia, East Anglia, Wessex, Cornwall+Deven + Somersetish. Exact boarders would need to be tweaked to even up population sizes a little.

After Scamerons visit to the Queen. He will put his energies into a policy, to make another referendum illegal.
On his list of priorities, it will be high.

chrissyharding - Member
After Scamerons visit to the Queen. He will put his energies into a policy, to make another referendum illegal.
On his list of priorities, it will be high.

What's the point in that? It's already illegal.

The SNP are pro-PR incidentally (STV specifically). Electorally it's voting for Christmas but not everything has to be about self-interest.

BigButSlimmerBloke - Member

The currency will be called the spondoolick

It'll be called the Tillicoultry. Because it's near Stirling.

😆

😆
Poor common 'tater!

How would a Federal UK work?
Lets assume for a moment that the House of Commons reverts back to being the English Parliament, and that the House of Lords is converted into a Federal overseer with the ability to scrutinize the Parliaments and prevent them from passing laws that would be unfair to the other Nations, and with responsibility for things like national defence, foreign policy etc.
So, we have Senators, but the disparity in population sizes would either mean that English people are under represented or that England's Senators would dominate the Senate (for want of a better term) and we all go round these circles again.

How would it work? Could it work?

Not sure why the SNP supporters are so happy? They're going to be nothing more than a novelty in Westminster, totally unable to enact influence on any of their policies. This is the annoying thing with party politics, essentially everyone in Scotland is now left with a local mp with no ability to do anything beneficial for their constituency. I don't see that result in anything other than a massive loss for the people of Scotland.

The SNP are pro-PR incidentally (STV specifically)

@hagi, yes they will be a novelty but they will get lots of airtime and the £7m pa I guesstimated and as the MPs won't have a lot to do in Westmister they can work on their own/SNP pet projects. If/when they lose their seats they'll get a £60k re-settlement payment too.

@Hagi- Would have been the exact same if we'd voted Labour, is the thing. The difference is between having the MP you want, instead of tactically voting for the one you don't and STILL getting a tory government.

But yes, it is a massive problem of this system and many others.

jambalaya - Member

Let's see if they shift now they have 95% of the seats

They were still pushing for it a couple of days ago, long after it became apparent that they were going to take most of Scotland. So apparently not.

@Northwind we've been round this one many times during the referendum thread but you had Labour governments for 13 years with Scots in senior positions. Pretty representative I'd say. It's not "your turn" now.

That doesn't really seem to be in response to my post at all Jamba, not sure what you're getting at. It's not an SNP or Scotland problem, it's a winner takes all problem- the party with 51% of the seats can have 100% of the power. Made worse with FPTP of course but it's similiarly an issue in the Scottish parliament. (just because my guys are the beneficiaries there doesn't mean I don't see a problem)

It's a hot topic in the states too and I'm pretty sure that's not got anything to do with the SNP

Not sure why the SNP supporters are so happy?

Two reasons:
1) A historic high for them in the Westminster results
2) Their best possible Westminster result in their pursuit of independence.

Remember that what the SNP need isn't power in Westminster - what they need is to be able to say that Westminster doesn't care about Scotland.

So, we have Senators, but the disparity in population sizes would either mean that English people are under represented or that England's Senators would dominate the Senate (for want of a better term) and we all go round these circles again.

How would it work? Could it work?

and the numbers for each region broadly similar, plus or minus a few perhaps based on population differences.

Whether those senators are US style, or German style (forced to vote en bloc) is a matter of debate.

Remember that what the SNP need isn't power in Westminster - what they need is to be able to say that Westminster doesn't care about Scotland.

So, we have Senators, but the disparity in population sizes would either mean that English people are under represented or that England's Senators would dominate the Senate (for want of a better term) and we all go round these circles again.
How would it work? Could it work?

You would not have England as one group. Part of the problem with UK politics atm is IMO that it is a diverse country in small area but run largely to be as if it is not. I proposed roughly splitting along old kingdom lines as it give the traditionalists something to like but I think the boarders would need to be tweaked to even up populations. County counsels are too small and just up playing around the edge then people end up voting in national elections on local issues. Poor separation of issues. Give regional governance with tax raising powers and let people who know the region tweak things offer local tax breaks for some industries e.t.c

@northwind, totally agree with you. My confusion is why the SNP supporters are so happy, they've achieved nothing. A hung parliament with them as kingmakers was the only real winner. I suspect as mentioned earlier there was a lot of tactical voting down south to prevent that scenario as the difference between the big two was so marginal anyway.

cynic-al - Member
I struggle to accept that a significant no. of SNP voters are no voters, given they are the only yes party with a chance.

I think that's what happened where we are (borders - Tweeddale, etc. Constituency). I think we had one if the highest (if not the highest) percentage of no votes in the referendum, and it's a historically Tory seat. However, the Tory incumbent only won by around 1000 votes this time I think. I think you have a lot of people who want to see Scotland have more representation/control of its destiny, but don't want to split from the UK. As there was a no vote, these people now think it's 'safe' to vote SNP for more devolution, etc. But with little immediate risk of independence.

y confusion is why the SNP supporters are so happy, they've achieved nothing.

They're a good bit closer to independence than they would have been if they'd won the same number of seats but were in a coalition with Labour. I'd say we're closer to independence for Scotland at the moment than we've been in living memory.

The sensible thing for the Tories to do is deliver devo-max (which it sounds like they might do) to shutdown the independence question. Even then the SNP do well out of it as they get more power than ever before.

Remember how the day after the referendum people were saying that independence was finished and all that happened was the SNP strengthened. People are saying today that the SNP have lots of MPs but no power - They have a mandate with which to beat to Tories and will only continue to get stronger.

I have a question - if people blame all of the world's ills on the SNP - why are people voting for them in ever increasing numbers. Don't underestimate the SNP. They are wily beasts.

Indeed for Scotland to stay in the EU surely it would need to be independent from the rest of the UK?

No they are in a perfect trap, go independent and you leave the EU and have to apply to join, UK votes to leave and they leave the EU, then vote for independence and if they get that have to apply to join the EU

either way you leave the EU unless the UK votes to stay in

I have a question - if people blame all of the world's ills on the SNP - why are people voting for them in ever increasing numbers. Don't underestimate the SNP. They are wily beasts

has that comedian left for Vienna yet?

I also remember how the day after the referendum people were emigrating to Australia...

I also remember how the day after the referendum people were emigrating to Australia...

I'd recommend Canada. Much better biking than Australia and weather closer to our native land. At the moment I'd much rather be here than in the UK.

ah, I should perhaps put my comment in context WNB

wanmankylung - Member
That's the plan. Professional registration has been obtained, visa has been applied for and job is just about sealed. Melbourne is my destination - have more family there than what I have here. Will be getting paid around 150% more for doing the same job. Living costs will be comparable.

Remember that what the SNP need isn't power in Westminster - what they need is to be able to say that Westminster doesn't care about Scotland.

Will be interesting to see where the relationship between Wee Eck and the "Nippy Sweety" goes from here, the smug look has returned!!!

I also remember how the day after the referendum people were emigrating to Australia...

Personal circumstances changed. I split from my wife. I'm not enough of a **** to put myself before my kids. What is your point?

Fair enough ^

The way I see it is that no matter which way you look at it England is a right wing country. Either Labour lost because Ed moved back to the centre/left and lost because people want 'new labour' not the 'old' labour or people believed the spin that the SNP would pull labour back to the left and again, would rather have a right wing government. Either way it's pretty depressing.

While a PR system would of resulted in a lot of UKIP and fewer SNP MP's, I'd much rather have that and government that works by consensus that what we have now.

Wanmankylung - in that case I apologise, I had genuinely completley forgotten about that thread, and that made it a low blow, sorry. (and I hope you are doing OK)

No bother.

I can't take it all in to be honest. I feel a bit gutted. It was about as bad as as it could be on all fronts. I had been prepared for a large SNP vote but can't believe that the Tories got a majority.

I have long argued that large numbers of people throughout the UK were dissaffected and nationalism was not the answer. Perhaps our countries are drifting apart and I was blind to it.

I have always voted labour but did not this time. I felt like punishing them in the hope that others might not.

Unlike the closeness of the referendum, this was resounding, and I can't argue with that. I honestly congratulate the SNP. I can now see an end to the union and I certainly have less ammunition to defend it than I thought.

The silver lining I suppose is the poor showing of UKIP and the hope that SNP influence and Scottish voters may help keep the UK in Europe before we break apart. If that were to happen then I would at least hope we are both in the EU.

We are in for an interesting 5 years anyway!

@epicsteve, I disagree, at least in a coalition with Labour they could push another referendum through parliament. Now there's no chance for the next five years and Cameron will drop devomax killing independence dead.

^^^ This - it was an opportunist vote for the SNP based on having influence in
a coalition government - or vote partnership.
(more SNP MP`s = more influence)
Completely backfired as the rest of the UK was stimulated to vote against an
outside influence coalition and for a safer option.
What will SNP actually deliver now?

What will SNP actually deliver now?

Independence, with a decade.

^^^ This - it was an opportunist vote for the SNP based on having influence in
a coalition government - or vote partnership.

I disagree. Sure the SNP would of had lot more influence if in any sort of coalition or supply and confidence agreement, but the polls were showing strong SNP support before that sort of chat existed. I put it down mainly to a huge disaffection with what the Labour party has become and how it's viewed in Scotland. That the LibDems screwing themselves over.

This guy speaks a lot of sense:

It wasn’t nationalism. They barely campaigned on it. Referendum and independence were only in the debate because it is often all the English establishment seems to be able to see.

The wholesale success of an anti-austerity, anti-Trident, pro fiscal autonomy campaign – it is sometimes as if the SNP never mentioned it.

But these campaign issues are what Scots went for in a droves as the SNP drilled into the Labour and LibDem votes from Jo Grimond country in the northern isles to the old red heartlands of the central belt.

They wanted a “left” alternative, the SNP use the word “progressive”. It is that simple.

In England they do not.

-- http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/english-politicians-understand-scotland-snp/9573

I agree that Labour did not provide an alternative that was palatable to the
Scottish people - The point about SNP policies keeping nationalism and the exit
low profile is exactly the tactic that worked - but I still do not see what they can deliver in opposition - who represents the Scottish in government ?

who represents the Scottish in government ?

No one. Just the same as if Scotland has voted Labour instead.

Except the end result of voting in the SNP was that they got the opposite of an anti trident, anti austerity government. Have a look at the snp manifesto, the current government is offering the exact opposite which means the SNP voters have nothing to be happy about, except the prospect of another indy ref, except they no longer have the means to push it through parliament. The sad thing is that a lot of non SNP voters voted SNP this time in an attempt to see a more progressive approach, sadly the failure of Labour has meant the opposite.

With Miliband out, Labour cannot repeat such a pitiful campaign and will probably spend the next five years building a party people in Scotland can actually vote for again, then it's game over SNP.

They had all the cards on their side last year, nationalist support is at its strongest after a big recession but big eck was right, it's settled for a generation and not because they don't want another referendum.

Except the end result of voting in the SNP was that they got the opposite of an anti trident, anti austerity government.

You mean they voted for what they believed in and established a strong opposition to represent those views in parliament?

Why's that bad again?

Bear in mind the other option was to vote "tactically" for a party they didn't believe in who didn't represent their views and didn't win a majority.

sadly the failure of Labour has meant the opposite.

And that's the crux of the matter. As usual the government is determined (almost entirely) by how England votes. England seems to want a a centre right or right wing government and that's what they got. Labour moving back to the left might help them regain seat in Scotland but I can't see it helping anywhere else.

Except the end result of voting in the SNP was that they got the opposite of an anti trident, anti austerity government.

Fantastic result for the SNP independence campaign.

established a strong opposition to represent those views in parliament

it should be union or no union. If the scots leave, dissolve the lot. We all want different things anyway (look at the result), the Welsh and scots want to govern themselves. Just get it over with.

Ive been of that belief for a while now wrecker.

@grahamS in what way have they established a "strong opposition"? Current Labour are closer aligned to the tories, so the SNP will remain an irrelevance. Not saying its right, but just confused about why people think its such a good thing for the SNP!

@epicsteve how is this good for the independence campaign? David Cameron has come out and said he'll deliver Devomax, there's no way of getting a referendum through parliament for at least 5 years, and the SNP still haven't shown how they can get higher than 38% of the electorate to vote for either them or independence (its the people of Scotland's mandate remember). The true test of the SNP popularity will be the Holyrood elections next year.

...they are about as strong as the lib dems in opposition to Labour in 2005. Hardly a power house.

True, but the SNP have one distinct advantage: spines. 🙂

(Also bear in mind that they can always point to reforms and changes in Scotland).

@grahamS in what way have they established a "strong opposition"?

Because any way you cut it, they now hold 56 seats, which is enough to sway the voting on any contentious bill.

Plus of course they are something fresh, a new story, so the media will be very interested in what they have to say.

They will be as toothless as the liberals were with that number of seats. Cameron will offer some fiscal autonomy which they will screw up (just look at their record in power) and the shine may quickly come off the dream machine that have been pedalling.

the Welsh.... want to govern themselves.

Because any way you cut it, they now hold 56 seats, which is enough to sway the voting on any contentious bill.

That would be nice, but I disagree, any time there's a contentious bill that the SNP could influence you'll hear that Tory whip cracking from up in Shetland.

Big Eck will get some TV time for a few months until the media realise that they're a total irrelevance and then there'll be nothing from them for a few years.

You know somethings not right when theres a party on the streets of Glasgow to celebrate an election where the tories won, the reality will hit home by the end of the year.

People complain about Two Party Politics, but give them a third (or fourth?) party and they complain about that too.

I'm of the view that having more parties, and more differing views, represented in parliament is a good thing.

Realistically what other option was there hagi?

We should have all voted Tory, that way we'd have won.

With Miliband out, Labour cannot repeat such a pitiful campaign and will probably spend the next five years building a party people in Scotland can actually vote for again, then it's game over SNP.

With Miliband out, Labour cannot repeat such a pitiful campaign and will probably spend the next five years building a party people in Scotland can actually vote for again, then it's game over SNP.

Milliband might be out but Murphy is staying on.

I'm in total agreement with you GrahamS, FPTP sucks and needs replaced. Hopefully this kicks the erse of politics and gains some traction for that to happen. But its not a time for anyone to celebrate or be happy (unless you happen to be a Tory), especially not the SNP, as this is possibly the worst outcome for them!

No one. Just the same as if Scotland has voted Labour instead.

That`s what I do not agree with - not because of the outcome/numbers

But because of the run up to the election - the influence of the polls and media speculating about a coalition outcome with SNP in influence gave the impression of a turbulent and unstable adversarial coalition/alliance
- something the voters south of the border were driven to vote against by choosing Ukip/Conservative. (LibDem outcasts due to coalition sacrifice)
I just feel that Scotland is now a one part state with no government influence.
I suppose its up to the SNP to deliver now .

something the voters south of the border were driven to vote against by choosing Ukip/Conservative.

If Labour and ex-LibDem voters in the south were so frightened of a coalition with the SNP that they'd rather vote Tory then they only have themselves to blame!

Trying to put that blame on the SNP is bizarre.

Do you want multi-party politics or not?

er -yes - would be nice in Scotland??

Hasn't Scotland just saved itself from massive welfare cuts. Surely benefits will be devolved to Scots gov before Tories drop the axe across UK else there will be no Tory MSP come 2016?

er -yes - would be nice in Scotland??

Something like this you mean?

[img] [/img]

I believe Milliband had a fairly left wing agenda when he was made party leader. He would IMO have been better sticking to anti austerity policies with the idea of Britain spending it's way out of recession; investment in jobs, industry + services, more jobs, more tax receipts etc...Britain does stand alone a bit in the world with the belief that cutting spending is going to improve your economy. Instead, Ed tried to be the party that cut spending but in a "nicer" way than the Tories.
Scottish voters could vote for a party that has competent politicians with credible left wing intentions. I don't get any sense of a "surge in nationalism" in Scotland, just people fed up with 36 years of Adam Smith Institute economics.

Hasn't Scotland just saved itself from massive welfare cuts. Surely benefits will be devolved to Scots gov before Tories drop the axe across UK else there will be no Tory MSP come 2016?

Questionable - the beauty for the Scots government, as we heard in the independence campaign, is that the current arrangement lets them take the credit for every pound spent, and blame every ounce of austerity on Westminster as owners of the magic money tree. That's why they have never used their own tax raising powers (which would become a tartan tax overnight)

If they are handed fiscal independence, then they have to raise their own money, and every pound spent becomes another pound they have to raise in taxes from the good people of Scotland.

People hate their elected politicians imposing austerity - They hate them imposing tax rises even more.

The day Scottish income tax rates are a penny higher than their English neighbours, the SNP's advantage is gone!

I am not blaming the SNP - I blame the media and the electorate - they always get it wrong!
Lets see what the SNP deliver for all of us.

They hate them imposing tax rises even more.

There's no proof of that. As soon as they got back in power after the 2010 general election the Tories promptly put up VAT, very little fuss was created.

That's why they have never used their own tax raising powers

Having been proved wrong, he will fail to respond to your reply but will no doubt bring it up, erroneously, again at a later date.

Yes yes, Junky, they can go on forever giving us excuses and justifications of why it was impossible

But we all know the political reality and cost for any party responsible for imposing a tartan tax!

I have followed this thread with some interest, the thing I like about this forum is you get a very wide ranging view on subjects from all corners/opinions and it tends to be (most of the time) a fairly balanced and sensible take on stuff. However the problem we now have (and it's a big ****ing problem) is that the Labour Party is not going to form a government for a long time (please note I am a socialist at heart but could not vote for the current labour party as they are simply incompetent Tories) so we will have a Tory government in power for a very long time (don't whine on about small majorities - one seat is enough to swing a vote) this means if you are poor, unemployed or live in certain regions (or work in the public sector) you are ****ed - Osbourne has a big overdraft to sort out and he and his party are not going to

We're so lucky in Scotland to have a credible left of centre party.

I expect that left leaning people in the rest of the UK are pretty envious of that.

I'd rather we didn't have a left or right of anything party. I'd rather have democratically elected administrators than politicians.

We should be governed by technical competence in delivering the best results for society. Not ****y politics.

What you speak of piemonster is not people.

ernie_lynch - Member
They hate them imposing tax rises even more.
There's no proof of that. As soon as they got back in power after the 2010 general election the Tories promptly put up VAT, very little fuss was created.

Junkyard - lazarus
That's why they have never used their own tax raising powers

they have never used them because they have to increase them across the board they cannot just tax the rich or adjust the threshold.
if they increase the top rate by 10 p then they also have to increase the bottom rate and middle rates by 10p
You know this as we have done it before so I am not sure why you have repeated it. They are not free to set tax as they please.