[Closed] This SNP rout.....

Apart from the deliberately useless tax powers, which powers haven't they been using that you suggest they use?

They have been devoting all of their time and attention to splitting up the UK. It is time for them to actually get on with running Scotland!

They have been devoting all of their time and attention to splitting up the UK. It is time for them to actually get on with running Scotland!

So, there's no powers that you think they should of been using, but haven't been. Great.

You can look on it as splitting up the UK if you like, or just removing Scotland from it, but either way, it was a manifesto pledge to hold a referendum, and they did. They've been implementing that stuff they said they would. Hard to complain too much about that.

ernie_lynch - Member
Which is strange because he seems quite a bright lad in many ways.

For a guy who likes to throw "patronising" accusations around, that is quite amusing!!!! Almost a classic. 😉

They have been devoting all of their time and attention to splitting up the UK. It is time for them to actually get on with running Scotland!

That the SNP has a majority in th Scottish Parliament in a system specifically designed to stop majority governments and for them to return 56 from 59 MPs in Scotland suggests that the people who have the ability to vote for the SNP actually think they're doing a good job of running the country. To be fair though, there isn't much opposition at the moment.

I can do patronising THM. I would have expected a smart bloke like you to have figured that out. Perhaps I over estimated you?

But anyway, are you still confused about what "adversarial politics" actually involves ?

If you can clear up the confusion you might be able to understand why Alex Salmond takes a confrontational attitude towards a Tory government, and it won't come as such a surprise to you 💡

ninfan - Member

As far as I am concerned, anyone turning round now and crying crocodile tears that the system is unfair because the Tories won this time can get stuffed, they weren't complaining last time!

I bloody was, and so were lots of other people. FPTP is shit regardless of whether you're currently benefitting from it. This time, the party I like the least suffered most from it, and the party I voted for gained the second most from it (*), I'm still against it.

(* you might say the SNP gained the most from it, mathematically, but the Tories gained a majority government)

[quote=Northwind ](* you might say the SNP gained the most from it, mathematically, but the Tories gained a majority government)

Ah, you'd have preferred a Con/UKIP/DUP coalition? 😉

On which thought, I've checked back and this election is the first since 1959 where Labour and the Liberals (or their descendants) combined haven't got more than 50% of the popular vote - obviously even adding on SNP to the "coalition" wouldn't get them there.

aracer - Member

Ah, you'd have preferred a Con/UKIP/DUP coalition?

Absolutely- I'd prefer a democratic result even if it's one I don't like. Though, it doesn't follow that would be the outcome- fptp distorts voting greatly. But yes, a coalition like that wouldn't have the singlemindedness and capability that the tories will have for the next while, or the stability or the sense of divine right

ernie_lynch - Member
I can do patronising THM.

Indeed.

Absolutely- I'd prefer a democratic result even if it's one I don't like.

+1

Far too many unrepresented voters out there. Even If I think they are all gits.

There's an awful lot of support within the Conservative party to re-evaluate the Barnett formula. I don't think its that likely, as Cameron doesn't want to completely alienate the Scots, but they could certainly do it and the SNP would have no power to stop it.

I'd be interested to know what the SNP leadership thinks of the result, on the one hand five years of Conservative majority rule, increased austerity and very possibly an exit from the EU, will almost certainly see support for independence increase, but on the other hand the SNP now have no chance of another independence referendum, and no power to negotiate a better deal for Scotland. If they'd got in with Labour they could have had UK-wide influence, might have had enough sway to get another referendum, but would probably have seen support for independence drop.

@pleaderwilliams difficult to see how the snp can be anything other than delighted with their result winner's in all but 3 of the seats they contested.They will require a different approach to the Tory majority government obviously but I believe that Labour in Scotland was perceived to be an ineffective voice in Westminster failing to represent constituents and also Labour under Miliband and Balls is perceived to be virtually indistinguishable from the Tories

At least Nicola made a pretence is morning* at distancing herself from the deceitful one who is still forgetting that most Scots voted against independence. Wake up. This one was about anti-austerity (sic) and about preventing the nasty Tories. People can judge for themselves re the success of this one. Perhaps that was one thing Millhand got right,

* is the neo-1980s sloney phoney dress sense coming back. The shoulders, the bow - only the pearls and Alice band are missing!

Is this a shift in your obsession from Salmond to Sturgeon THM?. You need to get out more.

Judging by the facial expressions and head movements, are they not the same person!! Your right though, dog walk, bike ride, cutting grass, exam tutoring. Busy day ahead really.

cheer up, you got a majority in Westminster.

Who is the "you" in that point?

Who is the "you" in that point?

The Tories. Haven't you about the Tory majority ?

Have you been at the dopey juice ? 🙂

Just going back to the responses to my anti-English point yesterday the BBC had a few interviews with members of the public yesterday who said keeping the SNP out of a coalition was a key factor in their voting, certainly not the London elite (and as others have pointed out London is largely Labour, Tory voters tend to commute in from the suburbs as they can't afford to live in central London). The SNP have had a big hand in delivering a Tory majority UK government, as I said before many commentators though UKIP damaging Tories would be the big issue in this election but actually it's been SNP damaging Labour and consolidating the vote in England against a Labour/SNP coalition

I voted Tory for the first time ever and stopping the break up of the union was part of the logic for doing so. If Sturgeon was seen to be pulling Milliband's strings then there would have been a vote to remove Scotland from the union within this parliamentary term. I didn't want a situation where the SNP were holding over 90% of the population to ransom. Sturgeon wants nothing more than to pit the people of Scotland against the rUK, you can hear this in the non stop stream of anti-Westminster rhetoric that she is pumping out. The idea that Scotland has not been represented in Westminster until now is a joke.

Who is the "you" in that point?

The Tory scare mongering worked to an extent, but 50/60/70 seats worth, nah, it maybe gave them 5 to 10 seats and tipped them over the edge to an overall majority.

But that screams a much more fundamental problem to me. Labour were seen as incompetent and weak, and essentially had very poor leadership. If Labour were seen as a strong party with good leadership, they would have romped home in Scotland too.

The fact Scottish and English voters have that distrust in common and deserted labour en masse tells me that the tory fear mongering had limited appeal, and the blame lies squarely at Labour head office, for incompetence.

The SNP campaign wasn't fought on nationalism, and gives them no mandate for independence. In that context labour should have done much better this side of the border. Look at the majorities labour had in the past 10/20 years, England isn't afraid to vote for a strong Labour party all on its own.

The SNP campaign wasn't fought on nationalism

I haven't seen any debates, and have tried to avoid much of the run up so cannot comment on any campaign as a whole, however I did see a few party broadcasts which I assume are part of that campaign. Until the first mention of labour about halfway through, the SNP broadcast outlining 'OUR' country and some apparently uniquely Scottish traits is pure nationalism, shown below.

Although I disagree with them, the fault of the make up of Westminster cannot be put at their door. I punished labour because they were so poor. We have what we have, so be it.

Just watching the VE Day celebrations. Call me Dave must be cringeing as London rings to the skirl of the pipes.

The uk is a country made up of 4 nations(locales)(and you can split England up further), it's difficult to get away from that and if your party only stands in one of those nations the debate is always going to be framed within that locale.

Here's an Englishmans view on it.

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/english-politicians-understand-scotland-snp/9573

When will English politicians understand Scotland and the SNP?

How much longer does the English political establishment go on not only not getting it – but demonstrating with toe-curling embarrassment that they simply don’t get it.

The inability overnight of English political leaders to read, even vaguely the significance of the SNP obliteration, leaves one speechless.

Let us take two examples. English voters would say left and right wing ones.

First Ed Miliband lashing out at the SNP revolution saying Labour had gone down to a “surge of nationalism”.

Then Boris Johnson talked about the urgent need to reach a “simple” sort of “federal” arrangement to somehow cope with the incoming yellow tsunami in Westminster.

Both men, simply not seeing or wilfully ignoring the greater part of the entire SNP campaign here.

It wasn’t nationalism. They barely campaigned on it. Referendum and independence were only in the debate because it is often all the English establishment seems to be able to see.

The wholesale success of an anti-austerity, anti-Trident, pro fiscal autonomy campaign – it is sometimes as if the SNP never mentioned it.

But these campaign issues are what Scots went for in a droves as the SNP drilled into the Labour and LibDem votes from Jo Grimond country in the northern isles to the old red heartlands of the central belt.

They wanted a “left” alternative, the SNP use the word “progressive”. It is that simple.

In England they do not.

What is clear is that somehow, somewhere, London is going to have to start hearing this message delivered in utterly historic fashion.

Somehow Edinburgh/Glasgow is going to have to find more effective ways of getting its vision across.

If they do not, the avalanche mandate what they call A Jockalypse Now, may indeed turn into exactly what England prematurely fears right now – unstoppable pressure upon Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond to return to nationalism. Jockalypse goes apocalypse.

Put simply, the surest way for the English lurid fears about the SNP to be realised, is to continue thinking it’s all about nationalism insofar as it thinks about Scotland at all

seosamh77 - Member
I thought that was quite clear. You and your chosen party.

Oh I see Joe, I have a chosen party do I? That's nice to know. I appreciate that Ernie likes to make things up so that he argue against them, but really Joe, you don't need to join him.

I have no attachment to any political party and as said many times, find it puzzling/sad why other chose to constrain themselves along such line. Still, each to their own, but please don't keep making things up about people you do not know.

Who did you vote for?

[img] [/img]

😆

but on the other hand the SNP now have no chance of another independence referendum, and no power to negotiate a better deal for Scotland

You reckon?

You have clearly never tried to negotiate with anyone from scotland.

Until the first mention of labour about halfway through, the SNP broadcast outlining 'OUR' country and some apparently uniquely Scottish traits is pure nationalism, shown below.

What's nationalistic about saying that your country is no better or worse than anywhere else?

You have clearly never tried to negotiate with anyone from scotland.

Genuine 😆

They wanted a “left” alternative, the SNP use the word “progressive”. It is that simple.

In England they do not

What? I think an awful lot would have voted for a left alternative if there's been one on the ballot...

The difference between Scots and the English isn't innate, it's the existence of the SNP. Nationalism gave them their credibility tk begin with but since they were also left, they attracted the left vote. The English have nothing and the Welsh don't have much since Welsh nationalism isn't quite the same thing.

I have no attachment to any political party and as said many times

#Tory the vote that dare not speak its name

What? I think an awful lot would have voted for a left alternative if there's been one on the ballot...

GFs mum voted conservative solely on the basis that everyone else on the ballot paper was ****ing useless. She is traditionally a hard left voter, and still is in terms of what she wants from a government. But a credible option simply wasn't standing in her constituency.

Admittedly in that scenario I'd have gone with a protest vote.

Welsh don't have much since Welsh nationalism isn't quite the same thing.

What? Mate - You are going to get flamed alive by the Welsh brethren on here! 🙂

[url= http://www.greatyarmouthmercury.co.uk/news/snp_wins_election_in_gorleston_on_sea_1_4064686 ]SNP win in England [/url] 😀

Seosamh

It wasn’t nationalism. They barely campaigned on it. Referendum and independence were only in the debate because it is often all the English establishment seems to be able to see.

That may well be the case, but many, many in the rest of the UK will find it difficult to separate the cries for independence heard less than a year ago from the SNP campaign of this past election. Why would the people of England take any notice of what SNP were campaigning on? We couldn't vote for them.

And I think a lot will require more convincing than one election campaign to get them to believe the SNP have changed their spots.

And I think a lot will require more convincing than one election campaign to get them to believe the SNP have changed their spots.

They haven't, obviously. But another referendum is pretty much off the table unless there's a vote to exit the EU.

Why would the people of England take any notice of what SNP were campaigning on? We couldn't vote for them.

The massive amount of negative press coverage? If people did their own research instead of believing everything they read in the papers and on the internet we'd be in a much better place.

If people did their own research instead of believing everything they read in the papers and on the internet we'd be in a much better place.

Si solum

whatnobeer - Member
They haven't, obviously. But another referendum is pretty much off the table unless there's a vote to exit the EU.

Nah, the scottish elections are where it will be decided if there's a referendum or not. This or the next(personally I reckon the SNP need to campaign on it this time, while their stock is at an all time high, it'll never be higher.)

Gowrie - Member
Seosamh
It wasn’t nationalism. They barely campaigned on it. Referendum and independence were only in the debate because it is often all the English establishment seems to be able to see.
That may well be the case, but many, many in the rest of the UK will find it difficult to separate the cries for independence heard less than a year ago from the SNP campaign of this past election. Why would the people of England take any notice of what SNP were campaigning on? We couldn't vote for them.

And I think a lot will require more convincing than one election campaign to get them to believe the SNP have changed their spots.

The SNP haven't changed their spots, and they never will. If you listen to what they say, they clearly see the Scottish elections as were they will get their mandate from to go for independence.

Until that mandate comes, they will work within the context of the UK.

But another referendum is pretty much off the table unless there's a vote to exit the EU.

Which the UK is getting and given what's just happened these last few days, we'll be getting a second independence referendum before the end of this parliament.

Nah, the scottish elections are where it will be decided if there's a referendum or not.

Sort of I guess. If the SNP stick in their manifesto and gain another majority then, yeah, back on the table, but I'm not sure they will do.

Even if they do get a mandate from the electorate in Scotland you still need CMD to agree to holding another one. Given the real possibility he'd lose this time, I'm not sure he'd agree to.

whatnobeer - Member
Nah, the scottish elections are where it will be decided if there's a referendum or not.
Sort of I guess. If the SNP stick in their manifesto and gain another majority then, yeah, back on the table, but I'm not sure they will do.

Even if they do get a mandate from the electorate in Scotland you still need CMD to agree to holding another one. Given the real possibility he'd lose this time, I'm not sure he'd agree to.

Maybe, maybe not.

The EU won't be a trigger for anything btw, England will vote to stay in I reckon.

Gowrie - Member

And I think a lot will require more convincing than one election campaign to get them to believe the SNP have changed their spots.

They don't need to change their spots- there isn't any contradiction between wanting independence, but also wanting the best country you can have while part of the UK. There's a lot of things that the SNP would prefer to do in an independent scotland that they can still work towards within the UK.

Strategically, of course, it could be beneficial if the UK goes down the toilet and I know a lot of people assume that's what the SNP want or even will try to make happen but we'd still be living in it while it flushed so it's not [i]really[/i] ideal.

@seaso, why is London going to have to start hearing this message you speak of ? Westminster will deliver the Smith proposals any maybe a bit more as to do is going to suit English votes for English Laws. Other than that there is nothing to negotiate whatever @wan says.

@athgray watched the video. As an aside I don't see Scits as optimistic at all, generally the stereotypical view would be the opposite and I'd probably fall into that trap also.

@ben spending our way out of the recession just wasn't feasible, the numbers didn't work. The debt levels left by Labour took that option away. As I've posted many time s before the only country to try such a thing was Framce and it hasn't worked and they've now reversed that policy approach and have joined the "austerity" game plan. By the way members of the eurozone had little flexibility as the debt/GDP rules force governments hands, the French asked for a waiver and the Germans declined.