[Closed] this Iain Duncan Smith petition, whos signed it?

I could live on £56 a week, remember it's after housing costs, I couldn't travel anywhere except by foot/bike, I couldn't own a car. I couldn't sustain that long term as clothing costs etc would eventually kick in. But in the short term, ie 6 months I could.

thm googling your quote - it gives the FT and the opening para [ omitted by you] says

Recent strength in the UK labour market is showing signs of waning with the jobless total rising, employment growing more slowly and wages squeezed ever more fiercely.

Not exactly high praise from a paper from the FT which , iirc, is a bot to the right.
Also

The number of unemployed 16 to 24-year-olds was up 48,000 at 993,000, or 21.2 per cent of the workforce in that age group – the largest rise for 16 months.

Interesting that unemployment and employment are both rising. That is stats for you - the article explains why and it is largely an artefact of rising retirement age and reclassification form economically inactive - I assume reducing ESA claim increases on flow [ in real words removing many from long term sick has increased unemployment]

MIxed is the best anyone can say about this unless you compare it to what it claimed it would achieve in which case it is a[near] universal failure.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/51f744fc-9146-11e2-b4c9-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2PKV3hU9x

re decreasing i think there has been little change in the % of unemployed as percentage of working age but working age has increased for females recently

Gotcha!

True JY, pretty much what I was saying ie, rate of growth slowing and government predictions proved to be over optimistic. The point being?

Signed it. There are all scum but as an ex arms dealer he's worse

I read one factor in increasing youth unemployment is that unemployed adults are taking the types of jobs typically done by youngsters

The point being

There are all scum but as an ex arms dealer he's worse

You'd prefer it if he was still an arms dealer?

<apologies to Junkyard for not giving my opinion on whether I think the world would be a better place if IDS was still an arms dealer>

Teamhurtmore; your obsession with figures and statistics (which as I said, can be manipulated to present whatever version of the 'truth' that suits the user) betrays your lack of knowledge and experience of reality. Take your head out of your books, and have a look around you. For all your desire to support Tory actions, Britain is becoming increasingly poorer as a [i]society[/i]. That is something only the selfish, the foolish and/or those in denial will fail to see.

Thanks for the advice thx and apologies on all counts. It's tough being in a profession that requires a focus on facts rather than fiction. Perhaps I should become a journalist instead, then I can join in the fairy stories. Is that what experience of reality is all about? In the meantime, I bow to your far greater knowledge and experience. Now where's that book gone?

THM, Fred knows what it's like in the 'hood, don't go throwing numbers around maaaaan.

apologies to Junkyard for not giving my opinion on whether I think the world would be a better place if IDS was still an arms dealer

tbh i would apologise for the terrible inference you have [ comically??] drawn

I'd forgotten this was the new Fred. I always enjoyed his stuff in the past. New Fred's, new Zulus....it's all so confusing 😉

It's tough being in a profession that requires a focus on facts rather than fiction.

What's the saying now; 'Lies, damn lies, and statistics'. 😉

Sorry, but whilst you clearly have an extensive knowledge of economic matters, you do seem somewhat detached from the day to day reality of society. You use manipulated statistics to support claims of increasing employment, as of perhaps to suggest that things are on the up, when the reality is that increasing numbers of people are finding themselves in dire economic circumstances. Homelessness and child poverty are increasing, education is in decline, and we're in a nation that consumes more than it produces. Those are the real facts you need to be concerned with, not some manipulated statistics from a government department.

I'd forgotten this was the new Fred

Apparently it's 'NuFred'. Like the old one*, but different. 🙂

*What was the 'old' one like? I keep hearing about it, but have no knowledge of such a phenomenon.

I keep hearing about it, but have no knowledge of such a phenomenon.

😆

What was the 'old' one like?

Funnily enough, exactly the same as the new one.

Actually; Perhaps I shouldn't be so quick to judge. Teamhurtmore; care to enlighten us as to what your profession actually is?

I'm genuinely interested; you clearly have knowledge and experience in your particular field, beyond that of the majority of people on here, and there is a lot that is of interest in your posts. Which is more than can be said for others. I'm just curious as to your background and what drives your own ideologies.

thx1138 - Member

Teamhurtmore; your obsession with figures and statistics (which as I said, can be manipulated to present whatever version of the 'truth' that suits the user) betrays your lack of knowledge and experience of reality. Take your head out of your books, and have a look around you. For all your desire to support Tory actions, Britain is becoming increasingly poorer as a society. That is something only the selfish, the foolish and/or those in denial will fail to see.

[i]Loony leftie picks unmeasurable metric to measure things by[/i], shocker.
😛

Just face it; this country is worse off because of the people you voted in.
I'm not saying that the coalition are doing any good, but it seems like you're drastically looking for people to blame for the guilt of your past actions.
Am I close?
🙂
Labour have done far more damage to this country than any Tory government. Don't forget all this talk of cuts and austerity is because your lot went on a bender with an unprecedented amount of other people's money. 💡

Just face it; this country is worse off because of the people you voted in.

I didn't vote for them. Seems that some others on here may possibly have done.

it seems like you're drastically looking for people to blame for the guilt of your past actions. Am I close?

Nowhere near. that you've labelled me a 'Loony Leftie' shows just how far off you actually are.

Labour have done far more damage to this country than any Tory government

Now who's the 'Loony'? 😯

thx1138 - Member

I didn't vote for them.

Didn't vote Labour?
Ah, too young to vote.
It all makes sense now.
🙂

sbob - Member
Labour have done far more damage to this country than any Tory government. Don't forget all this talk of cuts and austerity is because your lot went on a bender with an unprecedented amount of other people's money.

Can't believe people are still buying this. Are Labour to blame for the financial problems in Ireland, Greece, Spain, Cyprus, the US?

What impact did Labour's policies have on the sub-prime housing bubble in the US?

Didn't vote Labour?

Actually I did (for shame). You asked '[i]Just face it; this country is worse off because of the people you voted in.[/i]'. By which, you meant the Conservative Party. Which I did not vote for.

Ah, too young to vote.

Yes; in the days of Margaret Thatcher, I was too young to vote, so therefore cannot be held responsible for the state this country is now in, as this is a direct result of the damage done by her government. The Labour party, for all their sins, did at least improve things for most people in Britain; more employment, more education, better health care and a generally better standard of living for most people in the UK. If, as I suspect you are, you are referring to the global financial crisis when you talk about '[i]Labour have done far more damage to this country than any Tory government. Don't forget all this talk of cuts and austerity is because your lot went on a bender with an unprecedented amount of other people's money[/i]', then maybe teamhurtmore can come along and remind you that the global financial crisis was not in fact created by Labour, as you seem to be suggesting, but was in fact a [i]global[/i] crisis.

It all makes sense now.

But obviously not to you, sadly.

Thx, you are absolutely correct that we face desperate economic and social issues in the UK. We have no growth and little prospect of any for the foreseeable future due to the factors that caused it (excess leverage everywhere), the incorrect balance of economic policies of the previous and current governments and the dire situation among our business partners in Europe. This leads to severe social issues most notably in the young generation and income inequality (neither unique to the UK though). But bizarrely, it is the labour market where here have been some glimmers of positive news. That is not statistical manipulation, it is fact. Hence the debate you will have seen (BBC website (Stephanie Flanders), most broadsheets) of how can the labour market been relatively buoyant when there is no growth. Irony of ironies, perhaps it's is under a Tory, sorry Coalition, government that the rewards are going back to the workers in terms of lower output but more jobs (that's not strictly true either, but I will try it in my job application to the Daily Wail or The Torygraph as I am sure they will lap it up.)

Irony of ironies, perhaps it's is under a Tory, sorry Coalition, government that the rewards are going back to the workers in terms of lower output but more jobs (that's not strictly true either, but I will try it in my job application to the Daily Wail or The Torygraph as I am sure they will lap it up.)

The reality is though, that increasing numbers of people are having to work for less and less, as employers freeze or even cut wages. So, statistics say one thing, yet the facts of reality reveal a greater and wider truth.

I notice you've evaded (avoided?) answering my question as to your profession and background. 😉

it is the labour market where here have been some glimmers of positive news.

Can't believe people are still buying this. Are Labour to blame for the financial problems in Ireland, Greece, Spain, Cyprus, the US?

What impact did Labour's policies have on the sub-prime housing bubble in the US?

Can't believe people are still buying this. Are [s]Labour[/s] The Tories to blame for the financial problems in Ireland, Greece, Spain, Cyprus, the US?

What impact did [s]Labour's[/s] The Tories policies have on the [s]sub-prime housing bubble in the US?[/s] Eurozone?

HTH! Maybe worth considering next time you're telling us how Evil Tory austerity is preventing recovery...

Sorry, I didn't see anyone suggesting the tories are responsible for those things some people are accusing Labour of.

Maybe worth considering next time you're telling us how Evil Tory austerity is preventing recovery...

So in what way is it creating a better future for all?

rattrap - Member
Can't believe people are still buying this. Are Labour The Tories to blame for the financial problems in Ireland, Greece, Spain, Cyprus, the US?
What impact did Labour's The Tories policies have on the sub-prime housing bubble in the US? Eurozone?

HTH!

Not at all. What are you talking about?

rattrap - Member
Maybe worth considering next time you're telling us how Evil Tory austerity is preventing recovery...

Even with the stealth edit it doesn't work.

So Labour aren't to blame for their unprecendented spunkfest of money that wasn't theirs?

Interesting concept, but not sure I'm with you on that one.

I can't stand Cameron, but the deep seated tory hatred on here is so strong people are actually defending the last government? 😕

😆

All Labour managed to do was go on a returnless spending spree and, as is proof from the many threads on here, convince everyone they are entitled to whatever they want without working for it.

As an example look at the thread discussing speed cameras and driver training.
Lots of posters wanting safer roads but only one actually taking the responsibility for themselves and looking into [b]proven[/b] training.
Everyone else just dismissed it and called for changes in other people's behavior.
That's what "vote for us, have a laptop" Labour have reduced this country to.
Well done.
🙂

I'm afraid I'll have to leave you to have the last word (I'm sure you won't mind) as I don't want to risk getting banned again.

Play nicely kids. 🙂

Too many smileys.

Oh and btw rattrap, that 838,000 figure re ESA that you were so gleeful about earlier?

[url= http://lartsocial.org/shapps ]You might want to look into claims like that in the future[/url]

Thus to claim, as Mr Shapps seems to have done, that everyone who leaves ESA before assessment is leaving in order to avoid the assessment is patently inaccurate.It is not just that he has no evidence to back up his claim. There is evidence, and it shows he is wrong. He should issue a correction and apology.

I was also surprised that it came from Shapps rather than the DWP, but it makes sense:

Grant Shapps is of course the Conservative party chairman, not the housing minister. [b]That means that his inaccurate claims were made in a party political role, so they are not subject to the rules governing ministerial use of statistics[/b], although this would presumably be the case were his claims to be repeated by a minister.

Baited breath.

Yes; in the days of Margaret Thatcher, I was too young to vote, so therefore cannot be held responsible for the state this country is now in, as this is a direct result of the damage done by her government.

I invoke Dibnah's rule - STW equivalent of Godwin's law. Thread closed.

sbob - Member
As an example look at the thread discussing speed cameras and driver training.
Lots of posters wanting safer roads but only one actually taking the responsibility for themselves and looking into proven training.

Wow, ever so slightly revisionist on that as well. At least you're consistent.

 

ratty if anyone claims that the Tories caused the current international climate economically and it is all their fault then fair point - I dont recall a lefty ever doing this though there are plenty of right wingers still blaming labour [ with rambling explanations of laptops and speed cameras 😯 ] for an issue that started in america with a sub prime collapse. In fact their spending policies were so ace the Tories agreed to match them prior to the sub prime collapse and it requires putting politics in front of the facts.
A reasonable case can be put forward that the euro issues have hampered recovery and that any govt would be facing difficulties. That said I think we can judge them on whether the medicine is working - be that labours response or the coalition now.

IDS has spent years getting to grips with the benefits system and that is more than anyone in New Labour ever did apart from wotisname who Blair promptly dropped like a hot potato.

Because we would like benefits to be generous doesn't mean we can afford it. The country is almost bust, the cash aint there. The sooner we all face up to it and start working a bit harder and expecting a bit less from the state the better. Greece or Germany? Which is best? Which would you prefer?

sbob - Member

So Labour aren't to blame for their unprecendented spunkfest of money that wasn't theirs?

Interesting concept, but not sure I'm with you on that one.

I can't stand Cameron, but the deep seated tory hatred on here is so strong people are actually defending the last government?

All Labour managed to do was go on a returnless spending spree

Well I'm not surprised that you can't stand the Cameron then ....... he [i][u]completely[/u][/i] supported Labours's "spending spree" !!!

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1562023/Tories-vow-to-match-Labour-spending.html ]Tories vow to match Labour spending[/url]

[b][i]"The Conservatives sought last night to destroy Labour claims that they would cut public services by issuing a formal pledge to match Gordon Brown’s spending plans"[/i][/b]

I think it's your deep seated hatred of Labour sbob, which makes you apparently oblivious to this indisputable fact.

I invoke Dibnah's rule - STW equivalent of Godwin's law. Thread closed.

Ah, 'Fred'.

Not sure what a steam-loving Boltonian with a penchant for destroying chimneys has to do with me though. 😕

Oh and btw rattrap, that 838,000 figure re ESA that you were so gleeful about earlier?

You might want to look into claims like that in the future

Oof. 😮

The country is almost bust, the cash aint there

Nonsense. The country is a very wealthy one; the cash is in the pockets of far too few. It's all about fair and equal redistribution of that wealth which [b]the country as a whole[/b] generates, not just the few.

I do have a deep seated hatred of Labour, that's true.
The difference is, that it doesn't stop me feeling hatred towards CMD.

(I suspect a "Scanners" style explosion of mind at that concept!)

I wouldn't say I was happy, but I was content with the last Conservative government.
The country was doing well, for those of you that don't remember it.

🙂

thx1138 - Member

Nonsense. The country is a very wealthy one; the cash is in the pockets of far too few. It's all about fair and equal redistribution of that wealth

I'll wager a bike that you're much better off than me, if you'd like to redistribute some wealth I would happily accept a bike. 🙂

if anyone claims that the Tories caused the current international climate economically and it is all their fault then fair point - I dont recall a lefty ever doing this

Does suggesting the Tories "turned a recovery into the longest double dip recession" not count? Or are you suggesting that's nothing to do with the international situation?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19803864

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday ]Black Wednesday[/url]

❓

I'll wager a bike that you're much better off than me, if you'd like to redistribute some wealth I would happily accept a bike.

No problem. There's an old one in the cellar that you can gladly have.

It lacks various parts, doesn't go and I doubt the tyres and brake blocks are any good, but hey; your tory optimism will surely transcend such mere trifles. All it needs is some good old fashioned hard work put into it, to make it a going concern once more.

I do have a deep seated hatred of Labour, that's true.

Is why you didn't appear to know that far from criticising or condemning the last Labour government for their "spending spree", the Tories pledged to the British people that they would match it penny for penny?

wealth which the country as a whole generates

Istill don't get this part of it, where, in between gawping at tabloids, eating scotch eggs and twittering about those things does the UK actually generate any real wealth? Especially as any companies that generate profits seem to be come inexplicably un-British come tax day?

Black Wednesday

You're introducing that as another example of Germany screwing it up for us?