Use your own brain Michael, your clearly have one as you saw danger where one local "expert" didn't and your own guide was happy to follow like a sheep. Guides die regularly and two local ones have "lost" clients but survived themselves.
Seconded Edukator, you can see someone's taken a safer line further to skiiers rights.
Well I'm tempted to say thats the last time I post any photos up on here, cheers boys 😛 .
But I don't think you can say an awful lot about that particular cornice from a photo?? With only one big dump of snow this winter so far, it can't have been that big. And if you look at the man in the distance, he's at least 15 foot from the edge, and it doesn't look like it has much overhang at all. Maybe you overlooked the sentence where I said we were behind a group being led by the writer of the touring guide book for the area.
I am relatively new to backcountry stuff in the alps, I've realised the whole approach and attitude towards it is entirely different to Canada which I'm still getting to grips with. As in, everything in France is considered closed or out of bounds once you go off piste. So I'm new to this kind of approach where all of your safety is pretty much down to you. But in that situation, I think it was fair to follow my guide with 25 years experience, so I don't appreciate people saying I was just following like a sheep.
Not trying to seem nonchalant about the whole thing, just not sure you are all being fair. In all seriousness though, should I send the pic to the ESF to see what they have to say about it?
Just booked to go 17th January. Staying in Tignes Le Lac. Been a few times before , its just the snow ( so far ) has been patchy with only 1 storm and nothing in the immediate future.
High and north you should be fine!! 🙂
Friend of a friend was caught in an avalanche a few years ago when with a guide. He had a bad feeling about it, but trusted the guide and dropped in. Subsequent avalanche took him over a cliff and he's paralysed from the waist down.
Scary enough. I'd like to know if anyone has any stats on number of avalanche injuries or deaths with a guide. In a way you'd have to wonder why he chose a line above a cliff though.
We were touring with a guide last year when the whole slope went. Having a guide doesn't make you immune to the usual objective dangers and you still need to exercise your own discretion.
For me guiding is more about geography and where the best conditions are rather than mountain sense. I've been mountaineering long enough to trust my own judgement (not wishing to sound cocky just been at it for over 30 years).
With only one big dump of snow this winter so far, it can't have been that big. And if you look at the man in the distance, he's at least 15 foot from the edge, and it doesn't look like it has much overhang at all.
You're joking, right?? Cornices are formed by snow carried by wind. You need very little snow to fall to cause a significant cornice if there's a decent wind. And 15 foot is nowt!
only one big dump of snow this winter so far
All valid points above, but this is the big one for most! Resorts are looking pretty bare in places!
Cornices are formed by snow carried by wind.
And how is this said wind going to carry the snow if it hasn't fallen out of the sky at all 🙄 .
You and your guide were there Michael and I assume made your judgements based on the full picture not a few snaps. Nobody else on this forum was there with you and photos can be very misleading so whatever their level of experience and knowledge they are armchair critics in this.
michaelmcc - MemberAnd how is this said wind going to carry the snow if it hasn't fallen out of the sky at all
michaelmcc - MemberWith only one big dump of snow this winter so far
Point was that very little snow needs to fall [b]out of the sky[/b] to form a cornice. It can be transported in large quantities over large distances by wind long after it's fallen, forming cornices on leeward sides of ridges. In other words, only one big dump this winter doesn't equate to small or safe cornices. They are often formed over time, long after the snow has actually fallen. Didn't the cornice at the top of Number 4 gully on the Ben go last week and take a few people with it? It's not exactly been that snowy in Scotland yet this year...
As pointed out above, the guide [i]probably[/i] knew exactly what he was doing but, based on the photos, I'd have questioned his line choice and asked we ski the safer line further back from the edge. You only get one chance at getting it wrong in circumstances like that and not worth the risk.
I'd like to know if anyone has any stats on number of avalanche injuries or deaths with a guide.
I'm not sure what/if any conclusions you'd be able to derive whatever the stats ... traveling in the backcountry is inherently dangerous.
Since a significant percentage of the people in the backcountry will be guides then sadly they will figure in the stats - for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time rather than any poor decision making on their part
The review of last seasons French Avalanches makes for sober reading ...
[url= http://pistehors.com/review-of-avalanche-incidents-for-the-winter-2013-14-23635655.htm ]Review of French Avalanches[/url]
On a poignant but lighter note the Guide Seb Montaz (who's currently working & filming with Kilian Jornet) once told me the joke:
Q. "What's the difference between God and a High Mountain Guide?
A. "God doesn't think he's a High Mountain Guide"
Like the God / Mountain Guide quote! 🙂
I'd like to know if anyone has any stats on number of avalanche injuries or deaths with a guide.
Don't know about stats but there was a very recent example - New Year's Eve, Serre Chevalier:
On New Years Eve a group of ski tourers were caught by an avalanche near the Col du Galibier above Serre Chevalier. A 40 year old man, resisdent of Marseille, was buried under 150 cm of snow just after midday. Recovered in a state of severe hypothermia by the rescue services he was heliported to Grenoble hospital where he died of his injuries.The man was part of a group of four ski tourers including a high mountain guide. According to the prefecture the route didn't present any technical difficulty. The slide measured 100x140 meters. The avalanche risk was Considerable (3/5) in the range at the time. The guide was interviewed by the police as part of an initial manslaughter inquiry into the incident.
Ok then.
As an alternative to pointing out what should have been done after the event, can anyone use their depth of experience to point out some helpful resources for people that do have to rely on guides, or are interested in expanding their knowledge?
Don't really know enough to enter into the cornice debate. 🙂
Did a couple of days in Kitzbuhel and Steinplatte over the holidays. Snow was great though we were lucky as webcams on xmas eve showed bare runs and green resorts. It started snowing as we approached Munich and didn't stop until New Years Eve. Off piste still a bit sketchy as there was no real base, but still lots of powdery fun to be had.
That god/mountain guide joke is a take-off of an old joke about Buddy Rich I think.
@torso - if you book an off piste guide in a French resort from an established company they'll have the qualifications and experience. I did a day with a guide in Val d'Isere 30 years ago (first Brit/Scot - to have the French high mountain qualification I recall) and what he said was something like;
[i]I am here to keep you as safe as possible, I can reduce the risks but I cannot eliminate them[/i]
useful guide here on general avalanche safety advice from Mountaineering Council of Scotland - there's a bit on cornices further down:
[url= http://www.mcofs.org.uk/avalanche-safety-advice.asp ]MCOFS[/url]
And a nice example of one giving way 😯 :
That god/mountain guide joke is a take-off of an old joke about Buddy Rich I think
Yeah - there's a version of it in the film Airheads with Steve Buscemi regarding Lemmy! 8)
can anyone use their depth of experience to point out some helpful resources for people that do have to rely on guides, or are interested in expanding their knowledge?
To list a few:
Check the BMC website for Winter Mountaineering books, DVDs & courses
Have a look at 'Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain' by Bruce Tremper
Also don't discount your instincts - I did a guided trip a few years ago where conditions were mixed and one of the clients got spooked and said 'I've got a bad feeling about this' ... so we turned back no argument.
As an alternative to pointing out what should have been done after the event, can anyone use their depth of experience to point out some helpful resources for people that do have to rely on guides, or are interested in expanding their knowledge?
I wouldn't say i had a depth of experience but a few years ago, whilst doing a season in Red Mountain BC, I did a 2-day avalanche course with the Canadian Avalanche Association. Really useful, spent some time on theory on snow layering, risks but also managing a rescue scene. Spent a lot of time on digging out snow columns to assess the snow pack and a lot of time practicing with beacons. It culminated with a full on rescue scenario in the back country. Really useful experience. Here in Morzine a few places offer really quite short avalanche courses - 2 hours is typical, which are better than nothing I guess (unless they give a false confidence) but for my liking are not long enough to get real practice in.
If you have a beacon, get out and practice with it including looking for multiple burials. Last season I took my neighbours, with whom I had been off-piste quite a bit, out for a practice search and it was a real eye-opener - took them half an hour to find the second of two beacons!
A lot of the north american resorts have practice beacon fields where a random buried beacon gets turned on and you go look for it. I've not noticed any of these in Europe. Practice, practice, practice. The beacon is not just for you to be found but for you to find your mates!
Anyway, the CAA has some useful learning info for a starting point:
[url= http://www.avalanche.ca/training#ast1 ]Canadian avalanche association learning page[/url]
Now just hoping for some new snow!
And if you look at the man in the distance, he's at least 15 foot from the edge,
He is and the traces nearer to camera are much closer to the edge and beyond the break line IMO.
Send the pictures to the ESF and see what they say.
You can go pretty much wherever you want In France BTW. The only areas in which someone might stop you are the areas around "zones sécurisées" in ski resorts where they fear you might bring stuff down on other skiers. Suicide is legal but putting others in danger is not.
There was a beacon practice field in Les Arcs IIRC. Think I've seen one elsewhere in Europe too.
A lot of the north american resorts have practice beacon fields where a random buried beacon gets turned on and you go look for it. I've not noticed any of these in Europe.
Italy has quite a few practice fields - very useful for doing multiple burial searches.
And another vote for the Canadian Avalanche Association course. Despite already having done a few backcountry/avalanche awareness courses I found it very thorough, indepth and useful. Problem is that in Europe, a two day course is a big chunk of a weeks holiday for many people.
OK, looks like there are practice fields over here. Anyone know of any in the Portes du Soleil?
hard to tell exact distance from the edge as it's shot on a webcam, but one very lucky chappy! And I certainly wouldn't have gone back to the edge for a better look. Darwin candidate for sure!
schnullelieber - Member
OK, looks like there are practice fields over here. Anyone know of any in the Portes du Soleil?
I've not come across one. Seen plenty of others in Europe but not in PDS.
In many of (most in fact) the avalanche deaths I can remember in the area I ski, the victims died before the snow stopped moving. Only a handful died of hypothermia or suffocation. A fresh powder avalanche in a snow bowl is often survivable, however, the fall, icy cornice, plaque à vent, ice blocks, rocks, trees etc. often kill or seriously injure victims before the avalanche stops.
I sometimes wonder if there would be less deaths if beacons, air bags etc. had never been invented. Lees people would go out in dogy condition and take less risks.
My eyes popped when he stepped further out!
I'd be walking on the rocks there for sure. Easier walking too!
I certainly wouldn't have gone back to the edge for a better look.
I assumed he was checking to see if anyone below him got caught in it, though I'm not sure what he could do about it if they were (other than call it in).
At 0:27 it looks like it has set off a slide further down the mountain.
The other obvious question is what was he doing in terrain like that on his own?
Advice please
So i'm trying to book a place for a group of 8 (range of begineers to very good) and although i susually go to the 3V, i'm a bit concerned about the snow levels and not promising forecasts.
People have been saying Austria has not been as badly affected, but i don't know the areas well enough to work out if Kaprun, St Anton, or anywhere in between is a better bet for late Feb.
can anyone help point me in the right direction for more snow sure Austrian resorts, or is teh expert opnion i should trust the snow gods and there is (or will) be enough snow in the 3 valleys and i should stick to my guns and local area?
There was plenty of snow in Austria over Xmas - even in small/low resorts. I'd imagine you'd be fine in 3V too though TBH.
St Anton is a great resort/area though IMO.
I assumed he was checking to see if anyone below him got caught in it
Probably making sure he got some sick footage for his edit. 🙂
Tricky one. Late Feb is still a few weeks away and - given the season so far - literally anything could happen.
We went to Saalbach for Christmas week. There was no snow, very few runs were open. We still had a great time but we thought it didn't matter because we are off to Morzine late January - there'll be plenty of snow there! Oh no there won't be....
We went to Kaprun at Christmas and conditions were excellent (if icy). That does make it more busy though. Kaprun seems to still be getting snowfall here and there. Not sure about the other resorts you mention.
It will be a gamble anywhere. It will be 8 degrees in Morzine next week - if it stays like that for the rest of the season then it'll still be crap in late February. That risk will be the same wherever you book.
The time has come to pay the balance of the cash for our family trip to Les Gets at Easter.
Now we've been at Easter before and snow cover has never been a problem, but this year part of me is thinking "lose the deposit and go higher".
I know no one can say for sure, but please reassure me that the snow will come this year and some will be left for Easter, before I pay out enough money to buy a small car - or even a decent mountain bike.
Now we've been at Easter before and snow cover has never been a problem, but this year part of me is thinking "lose the deposit and go higher"
I bet the contract doesn't allow you to just lose the deposit, you'll be liable for the whole lot regardless..
I've not booked yet going early Feb. It's a lot of cash to board on ice or dirt. Canada is no better it's very cold, very cold
Quick update from the 3V for you. Conditions here are alright given the snowfall but it's at least 10 degrees warmer than we'd expect for the time of year. The dump that came and caused chaos on the roads was well needed and timed given the crowds that were here over New Year but we definitely need more. It has snowed a little since then but not in any great quantities. VT is holding up well and the higher areas across the 3Vs are in decent nick but lower down is getting a little icy and scraped.
In the short term we are due a top up on Saturday/Sunday followed by not exactly cold weather but colder than this week. Temps are currently forecast to fall next weekend (17th Jan) but who knows what will happen that far ahead let alone in February. There are lots of crossed limbs, fingers and any other crossable body parts round here at the moment.
On the plus side for holiday makers rather than holiday companies there are lots of empty beds in the 3Vs this week so the slopes are probably quieter than usual.
Footflaps, that's not the sort of reassurance I was looking for...
Just had another brilliant week in the Austrian Oztal, loads of snow, it is cold and crunchy late afternoon, but full cover. So good in fact that the next James Bond film crew are on site in Solden, just down the valley from us....
Taking my kids for first time this year. Got the eldest (5yrs) kitted out but struggling for the baby...
Where is the best place for toddlers ski clobber? 18 months.
When ours started (10yrs ago +) we used Decathlon for almost everything. Their kids clothes were ace. I think their prices have increased more recently but I am sure you could get the whole lot under one roof by buying their own brands.
Trespass is good for children's stuff - the outlet at Castleford (beside not in Xscape - there are two shops) is worth a look if you're ever along the M62
Or friends with children slightly older
Anything similar on the other side of the Pennines? Tried Decathlon and Winfields. Choice a bit limited... You know what women are like, they want their lickle treasures to look adorable! Even tho whatever we buy will be redundant after the week.
Decathlon ski gear = cold soggy kid
Trespass ski gear = warm dry kid
Dare2b is good for kids too. Madame wears junior's cast off on wet days.
Decathlon ski gear = cold soggy kid
Not IME but each to their own
I'm off to Tignes 14th Feb.....what's the snow like there at the minute?
Off on the 17th Jan , its rubbish now btw . There is no point in asking whats it like now , when its 40 days till you go.
Bit like asking 'Is the Dusk till Dawn course muddy?' on 30th July
I know.....starting to slightly worry though haha!
Still 22 days to go.
But a rather manic bubble of excitement is starting to build. 8)
Just booked to go to the Lyngen Alps for a week. 1st holiday with Mrs Mugsy without the wee ones for 2 years. 🙂 😀 😆 😛
Jaffejoffer - Try the Surfanic outlet online?
Prices ain't too bad. Sizes come up larger than expected (think Tesco kids clothes sizes)
Nice, mugsys_m8. When you going and are where are you staying?
I've just finished herding 9 cats into an airbnb place in Lyngseidet in the 1st week of March. flights, beds, cars all booked! Just got to sort my skin glue out now.
Dumping snow in Norway at the mo, Voss is having a fantastic season and Hemsedal and Trysil are getting loads now too
From April 12th for a week. Staying at Magicmountain Lodge for first 5 then will airbnb it in Tromso.
Dumping snow in Norway at the mo, Voss is having a fantastic season and Hemsedal and Trysil are getting loads now too
Handy, consider dieting where we've booked 😀
Dear autocorrect. Go **** yourself. 😀
Handy, considering where we've booked
Just got to sort my skin glue out now.
I have this very same task on my list - I've just taken delivery of a roll of brown paper to remove the old dirty glue and will be using the BD re-glue sheets - what method are you thinking of nedrapier?
Part of me thinks it would have been simpler to buy new skins ...
Tube glue is easy as long as you keep it warm. I've never tried the ironing method, just pick the worst of the crap off and slap the new stuff on. Works fine.
I've been patching the skins with tube glue for the past couple of seasons so it's now time for a proper re-glue I think - doing the whole skins with Tube Glue would be impractical, hence I thought I'd try the re-glue sheets
I found it quite straightforward doing the whole skin with tube glue but I haven't tried other methods. I strapped the skins to a long baton and clamped that in the work bench. I kept the tube of glue in a glass of warm water and spread it on with a plastic spreader. It doesn't look as neat as the factory applied glue but they're still super sticky - good enough for wet Scottish conditions which we all know are the ultimate test of a skins adhesion!
Edit - the warm glue is essential, the first time I reglued I didn't do this and it was like trying to work with snot from the worst cold of your life!
Cheers Spin! 🙂
... and back to the subject of avalanches, this incident from last week is worth checking out.
NOTE: video contains some swearing so possibly NSFW:
http://www.henrysavalanchetalk.com/avalanche-foglietta-north-january-5th-2015-ste-foy-tarentaise
NOt sure exactly where the 'Island of safety ' is in that film. All 4 standing too close together almost directly below the slope the skier is going down.
The slightly higher area to the far left or far right would have been slightly better , although this slide is so wide I doubt even that would have been totally safe.
There is a good tranceiver practise area in St Anton. You can choose the number of 'victims' and the target time to find them all.
My skiing buddy and I spent around an hour practising a co-ordinated technique to use our equipment to its best capability. His receiver gets a ping approx 20m further away than mine , then mine gets down to 40cm , then 20cm easier . So whilst Im pinpointing the victim he can be putting our shovels together and the probes.
The pingers in St Anton are only shallow , less than 1m and are a biscuit tim sized box that switches off when struck.
I would feel confident in finding anyone with a beeper very quickly and if other people were around , in organising a team of diggers to extract them/ watch for secondary slides / sort helicopter landing area etc
The predicted snow fell as rain. skinned up over rocks twigs and branches then skied piste down yesterday. Junior went out this morning and came back soggy, I didn't bother.
Tube glue on my skins, no problems.
Interesting vid, Digby. With the proviso "it's easy to be wise after the event": it's clear they knew they were on a highly avalanche prone slope and then traversed it rather than skiing straight down it. Traversing is more likely to trigger an avalanche and repeatedly traversing creates a lot of break lines.
Lovely mugsysm8! MML is a great spot and Henrika and Patrick are brilliant people. We'll be dropping in for sure when we're there. Food's usually pretty great too!
Digby - we've been going late season on wet snow and there's a lot of water that's got into the glue. The glue's still plenty sticky, but it's gone all gooey and comes off on your hands and on the base. Apparently that's water that's been worked into the glue. You can apparently drive out the moisture and smooth/redistribute the glue by ironing the glue with siliconised parchment paper over the top. I've heard several people say this, including this: http://www.larryscascaderesource.com/weird/weird_files/skins.html
and the backcountry ski tech guy at Costwolds in Betys y Coed who seemed to know his stuff.
Apparently the baking parchment [u]has[/u] to be siliconised, otherwise it gets very messy indeed!
Some serious snow forecast for the West Highlands this week. Could be looking at some good touring conditions in Scotland come next weekend.
Well, it's paid.
And our 4-inches-Friday-coming younger son did his first lesson of a nine week course at Xscape yesterday.
Grins all round.
More snow now please
Others might have seen this already, but [url= http://unofficialnetworks.com/2015/01/watch-avalanche-takes-out-a-group-of-skiers-in-the-alps ]here's an avalanche taking out a few skiers in the alps recently.[/url]
Can't see the video , comes up as 'private'
Can't see the video , comes up as 'private'
It's the same as the one in Digby's comment above.
Alas both say Private
Which also comes up as private...
...beaten to it...
Maybe pulled by the owner after all the comment / flak?
I demand to see avalanches
I demand to see avalanches
[img] 
[/img]
Well it is a biking forum.
It's gone private recently. Given it's clear they made some really bad decisions I suspect someone fears ridicule or legal action. They made multiple traverses across a slope (thus creating multiple break lines) which their behaviour told you they had identified as avalanche prone, four of them stopped together in an unwise place.
Any vaguely reliable long term forecasts? I have the option of a trip to Morzine over the second weekend of Feb, whilst I'd love to get some snowboarding in, looking at the grass on the webcams it isn't very tempting for the price of the trip. I've been spoilt by powder on my last two holidays and the thought of scraping down ice doesn't have the same appeal as it used to!
I would just get it booked bigjim. Anything could happen in the next month.
I'm going to Morzine on Sunday and I'm not panicking... yet...
http://www.meteoexploration.com/forecasts/Morzine/
Bergfex is a little less optimistic though.
I'm optimistic about getting enough snow over the weekend to make skiing fun again.
yeah I should just book it really hey. There has to be some more snow in the next 3 weeks...
I've skied the Alps or Pyrenees almost every Winter for the last 27 years and can't remember there not being enough snow to enjoy the February holidays. The Christmas period is always hit and miss, the new year a bit better and February reliable.
I know Morzine is popular with Brits being cheap and easier to get too, but I keep plugging the high resorts on this forum even if it means a few more hours drive and an extra couple of hundred euros.
Just got back from Morzine - Avoriaz is ok. Morzine/Les Gets is not great at the moment but some ok runs high up above Avoriaz.
Go on then Edukator, I'm interested.
We've been doing Les Gets for a few years because we found a company with excellent childcare, but this year our youngest will be in lessons (he'll be 4).
Assuming he takes to it we won't need the childcare so much next year, so given we're tied to school holidays higher does sound good.
Recommend me a high resort or two for a confident skiing 9 year old, a 5 year old in his second year skiing and two snowboarder parents of decidedly mediocre talents.
I've done Val Thorens on my own and enjoyed it but it wasn't really family orientated. La Plange was full of flat spots. Chourchevel was nice but highly expensive.
And just to make the task harder - catered chalets are nice and short transfers are preferred. Don't mind making my own travel arrangements and Easter is probably best for us.
I can get by in French (ie I won't starve) so it doesn't have to be an English speaking resort.
Go for it.
PS I should say thanks too really shouldn't I.
Wow I didn't realise how low Morzine was, I'm more used to Paradiski