The Annual Running thread - beginners/ultras/whatever

Is anybody else running in the Nation XC championship at Harewood House tomorrow?!
Since it’s in the North-East my club is putting a team in. Clearly I’m going for the experience - nothing else!
There are 8000 runners competing over all races 😳

Several from my club are racing, and although I love XC I'm sitting this one out. I'd be lucky to be top 100 and it's a full day out away from the family, so I thought I'd use my brownie points (although I think I may be in a deficit of these) on more significant races!

OK, I’m sure someone will come along and say you only need plimsolls

I wonder who that would be...

Surfer, I think you'll find that training practices have incrementally become a lot more effective in recent years; course records in ultras are still tumbling regularly in my experience and perhaps of more relevance to normal people, the reliability of folk finishing hard ultras has increased from about 50% 20 years ago to better than 80% of starters these days. How much of that is down to the increasing use of coaching among the middle of the pack runners, I don't know...

@highlandman I think that is likely due to the lack of history. Many of these events are quite new and they are quite specialised in nature. Also I suspect they get faster as they become established and better athletes participate.

My point wasnt about these longer distance events but the more traditional track and road events. The performance of British athletes is very poor today compared with decades ago. A couple of outliers but the depth has disapeared. If training is more "effective" then why are we not seeing increments in performance at all distances? We are actually seeing the opposite (I am talking generally about 800m to 10,000m)

Foe example over 10,000m
Between 1973 and 1979 UK had 8 sub 28min runners
Between 1980 and 1989 we had 12
Between 1990 and 1999 we had 7
Between 2000 and 2009 we had 3
Between 2010 and 2017 we had 3 (although we did have 3 in one night in Highgate in 2018)

If training has moved on why have we not progressed since the 80's?

If training has moved on why have we not progressed since the 80’s?

because racing over 10k isnt as fashionable as it once was and the fields at ultras are going mad with records being smashed due to it being *ultra* fashionable.

The more folk you have doing it the more competition pool you have and the more Drive to push the standard you have.

Well that was my point about Ultra's I expect they will plateau but a rapid improvement in such an event is predictable. Records in such events are less important anyway in the same way Xcountry records arent taken too seriously.

10,000m is very fashionable amongst distance runners and their is no shortage of athletes who want to be good 10,000m runners. Not sure why you think its "unfashionable" I used 10,000m as an example but other distances have seen similar lack of progression.
The issue is that UK 10,000m runners are not making the grade. There are more races around Europe and the rest of the world for them to run fast times in so why arent they doing it if training is now more "effective" although I suspect many would now struggle to get invitations.

Anyway you didnt answer my question, what new training methods?

10k is most definitely not unpopular.

@stox Yup! A few of us from my club will be running; be rude not to as it's just up the road. I'd be thrilled to get into the top half (based on last year's course time) but mosly going for the experience. Slightly apprehensive about the main event of getting out of the car park once everything's finished...

@sboardman I’m in Middlesbrough so it’s not far for me. I expect I’ll get trampled on from all angles but it’ll be a great day I’m sure 😄 looking at last years times I won’t be at the back so it’s a good 7 mile training run in my eyes.
On the plus side .. the slower you are .. the less the queue to leave 😄
Have a good run 👍🏻

@turboferret if I was doing your kind of weekly mileage I reckon i’d need to try to win brownie points at any opportunity 😄

@stox how did you go? My time estimate was pretty good, but I wasn't anywhere near the top half (maths is hard).

I've not run at Harewood before but found it a really tough course. I've never needed to use my elbows that much to make space at the start. Was very relieved the sun went in for the second lap! An incredible experience overall, thoroughly enjoyed the day.

@sboardman brutal! Well done. 56:20 was my time. I had no plan in mind. Training over winter hasn’t exactly been brilliant so I’m reasonably happy with that result.
It was a great experience and I thought it was a great course but I found it tough. I had to have a word with myself at the start of lap 2 and give my head a shake but Boy was it hard work today for me. Wonderful to be part of it and the weather was perfect. That start line was something else!
I ran the BHF half marathon there last year which is a great event but completely different route to today.

So that was 12k right? Hilly course too?.

Scottish nationals yesterday too at falkirk, lots of our club at it, mibbe next year....

Yes 12k or 7.3 miles in my language according to Strava.
A couple of good tester hills in it yes but all runnable (albeit slowly for me yesterday!). It was a great course and as I said, great experience. It’s a bit crazy when the gun goes off with 2000 blokes charging up the hill 😄

@stox good going! I was 55:44, eerily close! I've been training a lot more than last year which has helped and managed to run in all five of the XC races in the series our club does, but they are only 7.5km long so the last 4km yesterday were a real test!

Our pen was right in the middle, it was like being a sardine or a starling.

@nobeerinthefridge Definitely worth doing, a fab experience. Assuming the Scottish setup is similar just seeing all the tents is impressive enough. It felt like a brightly coloured medieval reenactment.

First race done 👍
Signed up Thursday, with some misgivings as mentioned above as my left heel wasn't feeling great. It got worse - hours later my old piriformis problem popped up for the first time in years. The nerve duly loosened off, leaving the muscles in hip, back and ass all spasmy Friday and yesterday. Didnt need that.

Suspect I went out a bit hot, having started near the back I passed loads up the first climb, 2km and 450m, getting repassed by many round a traverse where my ankle was protesting. Descending was really really weak. Nobody was descending as slow as I was. Either lengthening my stride on trail or repeated rocky drops where it was technical, I am a mincer. Walked the final climb, paying for the first one I guess, minced back down to the village for 1h40 (15km), 212/290 general. Unspectacular, but happy to finish as I wasn't going to bother going this time yesterday. Lots of work to do to on the ankles - I guess 3mths is not enough to condition a lifelong cyclist's joints! .

Well done Bob! 👏🏻

Cheers Nobeer!

Good half marathon today, aim was for sub 1:30 and managed 1:28 so pleased with that - and it was fairly hilly too for a road race.

And well done everyone else of course!

So the winter Ramsay Round was not to be. I got into great shape but it didn't. There was no weekend that was even close to looking good enough for a sub 24 winter condition round. It was either heaps of unconsolidated snow or no snow. C'est la vie.

This was the last weekend of the official winter season and it was like summer. I felt like doing something a bit silly to compensate for missing out on the RR so I did 4 laps of Ben Nevis. I hesitate to call it fun but it was certainly interesting!

Holy **** spin! 😂

I felt pretty good till the last one then slowed down a bit. 9hrs37 all-in. Got some interesting looks / comments!

@stox - the vast majority of my run volume is commuting, so that has very little impact on home commitments. I then chuck in 2 weekend runs, mainly at 5am so that I get back before the rest of the household gets up. Trying not to let my running completely take over and ruin general family life. As my wife is 6 months pregnant at the moment, she is more than happy to go to bed early, which works well for me too 🙂

@Spin - sounds awesome!

Bloody hell @Spin, did you see the same people (looking increasingly confused) on each lap?

Good job @mogrim and @bob_summers.

I'm currently working out how to get a few more miles into the week, but things are very much up in the air with a young baby that we're really still figuring out. I think I'm going to try and do short (1-2 mile) runs on a lunchtime at work, should be able to do that with little to no impact on home life. Barely worth the effort for some on here, but it's a step in the right direction. Commuting might work too, I'm only a mile from work but I could always take a scenic route home. @turboferret, do you commute with a backpack?

@flyingmonkeycorps I am very lucky with my commute in many ways - 12 miles mainly off-road, a shower, and almost next door to a big Tesco with a Timpsons. I get all of my shirts washed and ironed for £2 a shirt which saves me the bother of both the laundry and transport aspect. My laptop stays at work most of the time so I have to carry very little, just a few items of clothing, wallet, phone, keys etc. I use a tiny Inov8 ultra vest/pack type thing which hardly slows me down. My route also runs next to a railway line for the majority, so I can mix up the distances when I don't want to run the whole way to or from work.

@Surfer - my 'recovery' runs are usually with one of my dogs, and are a steady pace, stop starting when the dog wants to 'stop' for whatever reason. I started doing this back at the end of September beginning of October as a way to do run every day in October, but I've kept going.

It seems to have worked as I've dropped a load of PBs in, 10K twice, HM twice, 5 mile, 10 mile and 5K so it seems to be working for me.#
I don't know if there is a training effect as such but I think it must be benefiting me in some way.
Whether it works for everyone is a different thing and whether there is sufficient benefit to include these runs for people doing less mileage (currently at about 70 - 80 mpw in prep for London) I don't know, but while I'm enjoying doing it and I'm seeing a benefit then I'll keep them in the schedule. Not had any injuries in that time other than from falling over in the dark, but that was not on one of these runs 🙂

@turboferret that sounds idyllic, must be super handy for getting all that mileage in.

@flyingmonkeycorps I found that an offroad buggy allowed me to get more miles in last summer when our son was a few months old (I guess 8 or 9 months by then). He loved being out in the countryside so I'd slip off early on a saturday / sunday morning when he woke up. My missus got to go back to bed (to make up for the multiple breast feeds she'd done during the night) and we'd get some runs in the country together. Ace!

@dashed yep an offroad buggy (preferably one that converts into a bike trailer as well) is definitely on the shopping list, most of them seem to suggest 6 months to a year before you use them and as we have limited storage space I've not picked anything up yet. Should be brilliant when the weather picks up, it's a half hour drive to the local woods (though there are some parks within run / walk distance) so we should be able to give MrsMonkey a decent break.

@flyingmonkeycorps the 3-wheeled ones with the fixed front wheel are great for running on rough ground, but the fixed front wheel is rubbish on tarmac as it tracks in a fixed direction and is hard to turn. Once it gets on rougher ground you find the front wheel is constantly bouncing (very slightly) so it's easy to change direction / keep it on track. We're central Manchester so also a drive to get to any proper countryside, but 20-30 mins gets me to Poynton and access to Lyme Park which is a huge National Trust property overlooking the city. Big red deer herd and fairly wild feel to it once you're away from the car park, and loops up to 15km or so - brilliant at 7am on a sunny summer morning before anyone else arrives 🙂

We've got the out and about nipper sport I think it's called - recommended although not tried anything else to compare.

did you see the same people (looking increasingly confused) on each lap?

Yes! Had some good banter with some of them.

@dashed just had a quick google and that looks ace (and to be fair a lot nicer than the combined ones). Does it fold down for transport storage? In fairness I already have a WeeRide for the bike, so I might not actually need a bike trailer at all.

I'm trying to be a bit more focused with my training e.g. structuring it around specific races but I'm getting sucked in to chasing the numbers and probably end up doing far too many junk miles. I'm typically clocking up 60 miles a week or more, I run in and out of work for 4 days a week, then a long run (20 miles off road) on Saturday.

I have a series of races this year and the longest one is 15 miles but with an awful lot of hill-climbing (7000 ft), I should probably swap out my long run on the weekend for something that closer replicates that.

I'm also on the horns of a dilemna, I fancy having a shot at the British Fell champs this year, 2 of the races I'm doing anyway, however the only other one I can do is pretty much in the Cairngorms and its a 5 mile race. Its a long way to go for such a short race but if I can get a lift with a club-mate it seems like a no-brainer.

@flyingmonkey - yep - folks flat for transport. Rear wheels pop off at the press of a button and front wheel on a bike-type QR.

@dashed - awesome. Space is very much a premium in our tiny little house, so folding flat is pretty much essential.

So, tempo runs....

I usually do one a week, but since joining the local running club, I've been doing track sessions on a thursday night, been thrice and it's awesome!

So far - week 1 was 10x700m 3 mins recovery
week 2 was 9x800 3 mins recovery
week 3 was 3x600 and 7x700 3 mins recovery

1st week I went out a bit quick and slowed, but the last two weeks I've kept it steady at 6.30mile/min pace and managed to keep it going, Though I feel I'll be able to build this up as it's fairly comfortable.

Is a track session like this enough as a substitute for my weekly tempo run, or should I still be doing one as well? I usually only do 5k tempo, so doing a good 2k extra on the track, but obviously I'm getting recovery time too.

I would suggest that for maximum improvement, I'd keep the tempo on top of the track stuff. For a large number of club runners the bread-and-butter of their training would be track on a Tuesday, tempo on a Thursday, and long run on Sunday. The days can clearly be shifted around, and the keener (or less injury prone) you are, the more you do in the sessions and in between.

Assuming you aren't getting too tired as a result, try keeping the tempo. If you start getting niggles etc then maybe build up to it over a period.

Aye, I seem fairly fortunate with injuries, touch wood, tend to only really have a rest day on a monday, my uni day.

Struggled at track session last week, had a tempo run at lunch the day before, and then went out for a nightride a few hours later, 2 hours keeping up with my mate on his ebike, left me fatigued next day!.

Tempo tuesday, track thursday and long run at weekend was my thinking anyway, fill the other days in with easier runs with my wife - I reckon these slow paced runs are doing me lots of good, and it's a great way for us to spend time together, win win.

I’d keep the tempo on top of the track stuff. For a large number of club runners the bread-and-butter of their training would be track on a Tuesday, tempo on a Thursday, and long run on Sunday. The days can clearly be shifted around, and the keener (or less injury prone) you are, the more you do in the sessions and in between.

I would say track gives the most bang per buck but its immaterial IMO, tempo or track will offer huge improvements, it really is pretty simple, physiology does all the amazing stuff and never underestimate your bodies ability to adapt 🙂

edit: reading fail. read it as keep the tempo, instead of the track. Yes agree do both.

Lol, cheers surfer!

So after all the glorious weather we've had this week I managed to get out yesterday for a lunchtime run in the grey murk. Typical. Spend the whole week looking out the window thinking 'this would be a lovely day for a run' then when I finally get the time we're back to miserable. Ah well.

Since my time is so limited at the moment due to MiniMonkey after a couple of nights where I actually got some sleep I decided to make the most of it and squeeze in a run on my lunch hour. I kept it pretty short as a bit of an experiment, and managed to clock up just over a mile - it felt a bit weird running for less than ten minutes then spending 30 getting ready / cleaned up, but I guess them's the breaks.

Pace wasn't brilliant, but that was expected - I broke the run down into warm up / effort / cool down, and whilst I put in a burst of speed (for me) in the effort section, it was still a relatively short chunk of the run. Overall 9:16/mile, which I'm not unhappy with. I might set up a segment on Strava for the fast bit.

Overall it fit into my lunch hour pretty well, I've got a shower to clean up afterwards so I'm planning to do two or three lunch runs a week from now on. If I push my lunch by 15 minutes then I could get a much more worthwhile lap in, but I reckon that will depend how MrsMonkey is doing on a given day.

Got a place at the Jura Fell Race so project sub 4 starts on Monday. After a weekend of debauchery of course.

Pb today at the beach. Conditions were spot on . Slight cooling breeze on way out which became a cooling tail wind on way home.

20:52 official time

Next week is aboyne duathlon 4.2/30/4.2 so more cycle friendly than the 4.6/20/4.6 I was doing at monikie.

Following weekend is big hill weekend getting working towards the lairig ghru.

Did the High Peak Marathon last night. Started at 23.22 and took 12 hours 48 to get round the 70km. By far and away the most brutal race I’ve ever done. Off for a lie down.

Good effort @turboflard 👏 I think we did it in 13hrs20 or so. I only got asked to do it the week before because one of the team had broken their ankle so had no chance to train for it. Then again I suppose the best training for the Cut Gate to Bleaklow section would be finding the nearest patch of quicksand and running through it repeatedly!

Thanks @whitestone, they’ve changed the route from Cut Gate so it involves even more climbing and bashing through heather and groughs. Think the winning teams were sub 10 hours which is frankly amazing.

What can you guys tell me about shin-splints? I have a fairly dull pain down the front of one shin that feels like I imagine a shin splint would, but it's only on one leg - the other is completely fine - and I always thought shin-splints affected both legs?

I was convinced I had shin splints a few weeks back, physio disagreed and it did improve on its own. Never been a hypochondriac but starting running has seen me self diagnose achilles tendonitis and currently convinced I have plantar fasciitis ☹️

Views on running clubs? Have never been overly keen on cycling clubs over the years. I've done 100% of my running so far on my own, apart from one race. But I'm in the UK a few times a year (increasingly so, visiting ageing dad), might be good to be shown some routes on the fells. Based in Ulverston, next over the week after easter. Already joined FRA, Black Coombe seems to be the nearest fell running club?

Ben Nevis race entries open at 12 tomorrow. I plan to have mine in by 12.01. Pretty sure that doesn't make any difference but it feels important.

Have never been overly keen on cycling clubs over the years.

I've been involved with both and find running clubs far more welcoming and inclusive.

What Spin says. 👌🏻

I got a bit of plantar fasciitis - compression socks seemed to help enormously.

I’ve been involved with both and find running clubs far more welcoming and inclusive.

I’d echo this. I’ve never found a cycling club I’d want to join, but the bond with my running club was instant. Far more welcoming, and I suspect it’s because running is a much greater leveller as a sport than cycling is. My ability has come along massively in the five years I’ve been with them, and the support through injury has been excellent too. Now giving back by training to become a coach for them.

Will drop Black Combe a line then. My first CC here moaned coz I wouldn't wear club shorts (they were uncomfortable and fluorescent lime green and pink, the jersey was bad enough), didn't want a repeat of that!

Not been in here lately, the Gateshead 10k trail run I did last August opens entries today. Can't decide to do or not, minimal running over winter and a baby due in May - how much training will I get done? Might enter to try make me run again and beat last year's time.
Time, to catch up on this thread for some inspiration.

I would echo the cycling vs running club thing. I ran as a junior so by the time I finished Uni and moved away for work I was pretty established as a runner so had no issues approaching clubs or groups. The first club I joined when moving away from Liverpool was in Lincoln. I won there club Xc champs as soon as moved there but they refused to give me the trophy as although I had joined the club they hadnt had their monthly meeting so I wasnt a member. The guy about 2 mins behind me took it away. Bit miffed at that actually.

Cycling clubs can be quite horrible in my limited experience however I did join Port Sunlight Wheeler's a few years back and although I only cycle occasionally they are a great bunch, friendly and welcoming. I can recommend them.

Quick question - gait analysis, worth it? I basically don't have a clue about pronation and different types of shoe.

Can opened, worms everywhere! 😂

Gait analysis: some people swear by it, some swear at it.

Unless you know that you over or under pronate (which is basically the twisting or rolling motion your foot makes as the contact point moves from heel to toe) then just go with standard shoes.

Thought that might be the case! I have no idea if I under or over pronate, which is why I was wondering about analysis. I don't do a huge mileage but at pushing 40 I'm conscious that when I do bork myself it's taking longer and longer to recover.

I've seen some stuff about checking sole wear or standing on bit of cardboard with wet feet, any use in that?

Do you wear orthotics in your everyday shoes? If not then it's likely you pronate normally so you don't need to do anything.

Pushing 40? Just wait until you are pushing 60 - you'll hanker back to such youth 😃

Slightly off topic but does anyone have tips for training for a Duathlon? I've got one in 2 weeks. It's only 5k/20k/5k so whilst the training for both running and cycling are going OK, I tried a run after a 30k ride yesterday morning. Happy enough with the pace but that first mile off the bike was struggle. Anyone got any experience or useful tips?

Do you wear orthotics in your everyday shoes? If not then it’s likely you pronate normally so you don’t need to do anything.

Pushing 40? Just wait until you are pushing 60 – you’ll hanker back to such youth 😃

Nope, just wear normal shoes. I tend to wear something with a bit of heel drop after an achilles injury a while back (no more Vans for me!) but apart from that all standard.

Righto, neutral shoes it is, now to find some that fit nicely... I think someone on here recommended Nike Pegasus so I'll have a look at those.

I love my Pegasi :). Very comfortable with 3 width and half sizes. The 34 and possible the 35 versions are getting cheaper at the minute.

Happy enough with the pace but that first mile off the bike was struggle. Anyone got any experience or useful tips?

Do it more. Seriously brick training is a thing for a reason.

Also I find that grinding a big gear about 5 minutes before transition for a couple of minutes then sitting and spinning fast into transition helps the move from cycling to running.

Running up hills also helps

Anyone tried Addidas Ultraboosts? Found a good deal on those...

Thanks Trailrat. Good advice.

Love Pegasus, I had a pair of the originals when they came out, 35 yrs ago I think

A few photos from a 28k trail run yesterday following the River Findhorn and some offshoots downstream. Very scenic and lush, but quite hairy in places (a lot of it is high above the gorge and some sections in poor repair or totally overgrown)
[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Anyone tried Addidas Ultraboosts? Found a good deal on those…

Nice shoes but narrow. I prefer Pegasus, a touch wider and fit most feet better.

Lovely pics Mike.

Anyone tried Addidas Ultraboosts? Found a good deal on those…

I've got some Adidas Terrex, most uncomfortable shoes I've ever made the mistake of buying (they were on offer in a closing-down sale...). Very narrow toe box, and my little toes on both feet rub. I can't use them for anything further than 10K which is pretty crap when most of my off-road runs are minimum 20!

So try them on before you buy - your feet may be narrower than mine or the shoe may be wider.

Those pics are amazing @eastcoastmike!

I have quite wide feet so I reckon I'll stick to the Pegasus's (or at least something I can try on in a shop) like everyone is suggesting I should 😉

Brooks are also generally quite wide, have a look at the Ghost model, it's a well cushioned, neutral training shoe. It's a bit to big in the toe box for me, but is worth a look for wider or higher volume feet.

Those pics are amazing @eastcoastmike!

+1

Shoes - struggling to find trail shoes that just work (and are well south of 100 quid). My feet are quite square-ended (flippers), I found the shape of Merrells to work well - but they don't seem to make anything which offers a bit of rock protection. Tried them on the trail once and every other step made me wince if I wasn't careful where my foot went. Maybe a case of getting used to them but I've got too many aches and pains without worrying about another.

Oddly, I get on best with Walshes but the hills have been way too dry for them for the last month or so. Inov 8s, after a dozen runs, have split in so many places they just fill up with dirt and stones now.

Anyone had a less aggressive sole put on a pair of Walshes? Hmmm...

Shoes – struggling to find trail shoes that just work (and are well south of 100 quid). My feet are quite square-ended (flippers), I found the shape of Merrells to work well – but they don’t seem to make anything which offers a bit of rock protection

Altra Lone Peak have a very wide toe box, but they're zero drop and no doubt more than 100gbp. Very comfortable though!

North Face trail shoes are wide, and some come with a rock plate.
Not cheap RRP, but deals can be had from their outlet stores (or outlet web - but you really should try them on) 😀

I wouldn't buy NF stuff now, s'all about fashion with them, overpriced and I don't know anyone that wears them.

Never even seen NF trail shoes. The Altra does seem similar in shape to the Merrels, 120e in Forum though.
Found some inov 8 roclites for 60 quid meanwhile, not impressed with how the last pair (trailroc) died so fast but I'll get them patched up as they are comfy. Hope the roclites are a bit beefier.