The Reform crazies on local Facebook groups are presently claiming that the elections around here were rigged as Reform didn’t get in
Yeah, course they were. ****ing loons, the lot of ‘em
Rejoining the EU would fix that. "Small boats" is a symptom of a problem we created, it's an issue which didn't exist 15 years ago.
Which you'd know if you attempted to answer the question I asked you on the previous page.
thqts right, illegal immigration didn’t exist before 2016, and there weren’t any riots in Calais with immigrants trying to storm the Channel Tunnel en-masse when Blair was PM, right?
There was a LOT more of it after 2016 and then after 2021 though. Wonder why.
The problem as I see it is that we have polarising views from reform who want to ban everyone to the left who want to let everyone in. There isn’t a grow up conversation about what immigration is needed and why, how it can be delivered whilst preventing illegal immigration. No one seems to have a workable clue as to how to stop illegal entry which is creating the problem that is being exploited
But *you* are polarising by your first sentence! AFAIK both of those statements are a lie. Reform is at least a political party, so if it wants to ban everyone, I'll donate £10k to a charity of your choice if you can link me to the policy that proves it. The left isn't a political party and has a range of views. Again, AFAIK, a common view amongst socialists which was a policy during Brexit campaigning was that immigration hurts British workers. Can you point me to a political party who'd let everyone in?
The only way Labour will beat Reform is by doing better over the next 3 years.
They've stumbled into Government made some major balls-ups and need to get back on track.
A good start would be to reverse the fiscal drag from income tax thresholds. But at the next budget, not the one before the election as that would be spun as bribery.
Not a fan of changing leader - I don't see what this would achieve.
TBH ‘just’ sorting out potholes,dentist,doctor and appointments would be a good.
If people see changes in their daily lives the whole Boats/immigrants populism will slide back into the shadows.
Labours mistake was banging on about black holes they inherited and generally behaving like the tories they replaced.
if Reform gets in it it will be displays of performative art whilst behind the scenes dismantling the NHS, triple lock pensions and your rights and more importantly the rights of people too young to vote who will really appreciate what they are going to be dealt.
No one seems to have a workable clue as to how to stop illegal entry which is creating the problem that is being exploited
Rejoining the EU would fix that. "Small boats" is a symptom of a problem we created, it's an issue which didn't exist 15 years ago.
Which you'd know if you attempted to answer the question I asked you on the previous page.
Completely agree and it would be great. Not sure how that policy gets an elected government though
The only way Labour will beat Reform is by doing better over the next 3 years.
They've stumbled into Government made some major balls-ups and need to get back on track.
A good start would be to reverse the fiscal drag from income tax thresholds. But at the next budget, not the one before the election as that would be spun as bribery.
Not a fan of changing leader - I don't see what this would achieve.
TBH ‘just’ sorting out potholes,dentist,doctor and appointments would be a good.
If people see changes in their daily lives the whole Boats/immigrants populism will slide back into the shadows.
Labours mistake was banging on about black holes they inherited and generally behaving like the tories they replaced.
if Reform gets in it it will be displays of performative art whilst behind the scenes dismantling the NHS, triple lock pensions and your rights and more importantly the rights of people too young to vote who will really appreciate what they are going to be dealt.
I don't even think it will be behind the scenes.
Likely they'll copy musks "doge" approach of slash and burn as noisily and quickly as possible and to hell with the consequences.
Wouldn't be surprised if musk or his employees were to be directly involved.
Kevog's head is going to explode when he discovers that Zia Yusuf is actually called Mohammad Yusuf, but he's forced to use his middle name because the party members are so racist they wouldn't tolerate him as a leader.
I think GB News has been a massive factor in swaying a lot of older voters towards Reform. My mother in law watches it avidly and has been convinced that Farage is the saviour of the country. She is totally unaware about issues such as the threat to the NHS, Brexit causing small boat crossings to increase, links with Russia etc.
She has six grand children and four of them appealed to her not to vote Reform because of cuts to workers rights, changes to minimum wage etc. but she dismissed all these due to being brainwashed by watching that propaganda outlet for 4+ hours per day.
thqts right, illegal immigration didn’t exist before 2016,
That isn't what I said.
But I rather suspect you know that and are deliberately misrepresenting it. If not then you need to go back and read your own comments about comprehension.
Do you agree with every policy of a party you vote for, or do you prioritise some policies over others? Labour Party policy on disability benefits and retention of the two child child benefit cap for example? Green Party policies on decriminalisation of drugs, or their long standing opposition to NATO membership?
No I don't..
But I asked you to give 3 reasons for me to vote for Reform, and one of them was 'migrants damage job security'..your solution, 'vote for a party that wants to get rid of job security '
Now about that critical thinking..
🤔
Start a trainng scheme for the men of fighting age who arrive and are put up in temporary accommodation. As men of fighting age make very good labourers ,builders , digger drivers etc .
They can then , after a few months intensive training , build the hospital on every corner Boris promised us whilst getting Brexit done.
Then, once they have finished a few new hospitals they can start on nursing homes which can be staffed by their family members.
Once we have a few hundred nursing home built the men of fighting age can set too building a few thousand councils houses .
Every village in the country can have 1 new road with a mix of 2 , 3 and 4 bed semi or detached houses . None of which can be sold off. All must be available for rental . No need for massive infrastructure builds , the village shoppe might need extending but the immigrants can knock that out in a week as by now they will be skilled cowboy builders .
I think GB News has been a massive factor in swaying a lot of older voters towards Reform
Paul Marshall I think deserves more attention and "credit".
He screwed up the libdems with his funding of the orange book loons who were only too happy to go into coalition with the tories since they pretty much shared all the same beliefs.
Then after leaving them a smouldering wreck went on to the tories for brexit and now they are a smouldering wreck seems to be betting on reform and is a major funder of GB News propaganda outlet.
I would say a major problem with reform is that they are never adequately challenged by any major media outlet.
Can you imagine if Polanski, Starmer or Davey had been given 5 million and not declared it, actually even if they had, from some foreign based billionaire? Hell if it had been Rhun ap Iorwerth or John Swinney I expect the media would have suddenly decided to concentrate on them.
We get the continual bollocks about Farage speaking his mind and answering questions.
When
a)Just because someone is saying unpleasant things doesnt mean they are speaking their mind. They could just have figured they would get the most votes/cash from saying it. Incidentally why do people who arent ****s get credit for being "honest". I dont think the same courtesy would be offered to someone who said yes I believe in completely open borders.
b)He is as crap as any politican at answering questions its just he throws abuse at the interviewer vs waffling. Again this is a privilege extended to him since most politicians would then be hounded by the press about abusing the interviewer.
Here's where I've got to (as a life long Labour voter, who's GE vote has only once ever possibly affected the result for my MP).
The current Labour Party in Westminster have failed to do anything much in terms of change that people want (what they were in effect elected on the basis of) in 2 years.
The roads are still ****ed.
The NHS is still ****ed.
The railways are still ****ed (GBR still doesn't have any powers beyond deciding whether to order a Latte or Flat White in a morning, and still won't by the end of the year. Even after that, Network Rail a dysfunctional disorganisation and that will remain the same after GBR is formed. MML is still mostly unelectrified, ticket prices still too high, trains overcrowded, and reliability low).
Raw shit still gets pumped into lakes and rivers around the country on a new daily basis. Water Co bosses still get huge pay for that. The water bills have gone UP to cover more bonuses for the directors.
The wealthy 1%, billionaires, russians and huge corporations still dodge paying tax. Nothing has been done on that except a token inheritance tax on farms.
And this Labour Gov seems incapable of even getting itself out of a wet paper bag.
Whatever the question is, Wes Streeting is not the answer!
I've concluded a right wing Gov of reform or a combo or Reform + Tories is going to happen. Nearly inevitable. Time to batten down the hatches and ride out the shitstorm between 2029 and 2034, watch the total ****fest they make of it, hope the ill-educated morons that enabled these ****s to have power suffer the consequences, and hope come the 2034 election we get a progressive party that makes some real change for once. When I say ride out the shit storm, that may include ****ing orf overseas - because I'm educated well enough and have the skills needed to work in plenty of other places if I want to, as are my wife and offspring.
Yeah, course they were. ****ing loons, the lot of ‘em
Did they mention the fact pencils were used?
In terms of reform voters I do struggle in how to respond.
Clearly the they are all racist idiots is bollocks.
Equally clearly there are large parts of the country and particular groups who, not unreasonably, feel they have been ignored whilst their votes have been taken for granted. The "managed decline" is a reality for several areas and for any poor sod brought up there they will know it all to well. I was born in one of those but happily for me my parents managed to escape the trap. When I look at their old friends and their kids of my age I am really grateful for it. I am not sure I would have been able to which is why the opinions like "down to them" as expressed on this thread does make me wonder about that persons upbringing.
Its like how the venn diagram of those who rant about vat on private schools and those who announce its a meritocracy tend to have a high overlap. Which is odd since surely if you believe in a meritocracy you will have faith that your kid will do well regardless so might as well spend the fees on a van and a bunch of bikes?
So I do have sympathy for someone looking at the historical parties and thinking they dont represent me (although obviously this gets messy when you look at how they change eg Blair labour vs Corbyn) but when it comes to reform the obvious issue is its basically a tory rebrand.
On the flipside is the fact they generally arent held to account and hence you do need to be interested in politics to question it.
If you read all the headlines about illegal immigrants being put up in 4* hotels before being given a house and whatnot I dont think it is unreasonable to think "what the ****?" Its just the right follow up is to factcheck it and go "ah its bollocks" but that takes time and effort. It definitely isnt helped when the false narrative isnt challenged because its easy to announce you are cracking down as well.
but that takes time and effort
No, it doesn’t. People believe it because it plays to their base instincts (don’t call them racists) or they simply don’t get it (don’t call them stupid).
No, it doesn’t.
Of course it does. Look at the front pages and nowadays what is pushed in social media feeds. Our problem is the data sources are compromised. I mean why shouldnt you be able to look at the daily mail with a slight dash of the guardian to balance things out and get a reasonable view of the world or look at the list of news stories online and be able to trust they are genuine vs a Russia disinformation outfit or a Phillipines outfit pushing rubbish because that gets clicks and hence revenue.
You can also ask why people got those "base instincts" and whether you arent prone to them yourself? I have commented in the past how often some of the "grown ups" on this site are clearly being manipulated when certain phrases suddenly start being trotted out ("grown ups" being a great example) .
I know I have used phrases in the past and thought "wtf I am regurgitating that" and I have no doubt I missed plenty. I also know I am vulnerable to confirmation bias and despite having been taught about it (unlike many people) I know I am still prone to it. Unfortunately there is no solution to it outside of very limited scenarios where you can do a double blind experiment (day to day I cant think of many cases where this is an option outside of a whisky tasting).
Yes confirmation bias does help reinforce existing attitudes but those attitudes can start from neutral and quickly be shifted one way or another. Just look at the research about how quickly social media attitudes push you down a certain path and then think just how it will work in a pub as well.
Yes confirmation bias does help reinforce existing attitudes but
Yes, but no. The people who believe this shit want to believe it.
They don't have the monopoly on this either. I've seen people both within and without STW who believe they're the "clever" ones make the same mistake. We comment time and again going "FFS how hard is it to spend 30 seconds googling to fact check?" Yet as soon as something is posted which agrees with what we expected then that "hang on a minute" due diligence goes out of the window.
How many of us first read about Nigel's £5M bung on STW or other social media and just accepted it as fact without verifying it? Be honest with yourselves.
Meanwhile, veering away from Yet Another Identikit Political Argument and back on topic,
This image here gives a much clearer picture of the media-led frenzy around how Reform have "swept the board" in the local elections. Those light blue spots are Reform-led councils.
As I pointed out though, councils where only a proportion of the seats were up for grab are unlikely to swing to Reform with one round of elections. And then there all the councils that had NO seats being elected this time around (more than half of councils). If their support remains this high next year and beyond far more councils will be Reform. If they keep gaining a 1/3 of seats in these elections then they could well end up running more councils than any other party.
I think GB News has been a massive factor in swaying a lot of older voters towards Reform. My mother in law watches it avidly and has been convinced that Farage is the saviour of the country. She is totally unaware about issues such as the threat to the NHS, Brexit causing small boat crossings to increase, links with Russia etc.
She has six grand children and four of them appealed to her not to vote Reform because of cuts to workers rights, changes to minimum wage etc. but she dismissed all these due to being brainwashed by watching that propaganda outlet for 4+ hours per day.
I'd forgotten GB News. It's the classic populist authoritarian move isn't it, to own or control media channels. He's positioned his side well there. Will Ofcom deal with it or will Reform deal with Ofcom under some 'free speech' story?
How many of us first read about Nigel's £5M bung on STW or other social media and just accepted it as fact without verifying it? Be honest with yourselves
The information was published by the Guardian, after doing what newspapers used to do, but nowadays rarely bother with… detailed investigative journalism.
It wasn’t put out by some random, dubiously named Twitter account.
it also raises the obvious question, which I’ve watched Zia Yusuf steadfastly refuse to answer on more than one occasion, and we all know the man-frog doesn’t answer questions….
How many more payments like this are there, that we don’t yet know about, and from who?
This image here gives a much clearer picture of the media-led frenzy around how Reform have "swept the board" in the local elections.
That is only the ones they won last week, the ones from last year are not included on that map, see the link below for the full UK Council map. They have a much larger presence on the full map.
I don't really get the hatred for Starmer
I think it's because local people think they're voting for the person in #10. So the other sides focus on the party leaders/strong personalities/people who get things done to discredit them.
See the stuff about Zack Polanski. Sure, he's maybe done a couple of semi-naughty things on his CV - but isn't it obvious that the timing of the recent disclosures is all about damaging his reputation (and therefore that of the Greens) because in many voters eyes he IS the Green Party.
And didn't the Greens do well in the polls? Really well, in fact. So, if you're a major Reform supporter and own a media platform, what better time to try and damage that success than the week prior to the vote? It's a PR thing.
It's blatantly election by populism - personally, I'd rather have a quiet leader in #10 getting on with it and competent ministers behind the scenes. What we've got is management by butterfly and as Trump is showing and Garage will no doubt show, that works with the voters.
And didn't the Greens do well in the polls? Really well, in fact. So, if you're a major Reform supporter and own a media platform, what better time to try and damage that success than the week prior to the vote? It's a PR thing.
I agree with you, but I dont think the Greens did very well at all. In what was an election with the Labour/Tory duo support at a low - many will not vote for either now, it should have left the door open for the minor Parties. The Libs are still a bit tarnished by their previous Tory pact, so the field was really open for a left leaning Party to sweep up, but the Greens just didnt hit the spot. ZP is a put off for many, and some of the policies are just not palatable for the majority.
Reform didnt give any viable policies either, but people CGAF about what they have done/propose, they want a change, so even some (past) Labour voters went for Reform, in what, for many, would be a protest vote against the poor quality Politicians we have had for the last 20/30 years. Look at it - how can it get worse with someone else in charge (yes, I know it could!), people want change, and Reform are offering that. Of course, they are all just the same when it comes down to it, but Labour and Torys are just not doing anything to inspire the general bulk of the electorate to vote for them. Blame them, they have sat on their arse doing nothing but to take as much money as they can. Labour had a chance to do some real good last year, they blew it in 6 months, and have kept going downhill - how is that possible when you have such a majority? Clueless Politicians, poor advisors, lack of morals, no greater vision to improve life, and no plans to implement any idea they come up with.
But we're all safe now, Starmer has employed Gordon Brown. Yes, thats really going to change round his fortunes!
How long have we been having these conversations now, since 2016 at least? We lost back then because we thought we could reason with feelings and we still haven't learned that this is not possible.
Yet people resort to the same old name calling to get their opinion across.
Its frustrating reading here the same insults and same fixed beliefs from the anti-Reformers. Time and time again it falls back to a similar "I do debate nicely .. but, they are all thick and/or racist .."
What these vocal anti-Reformers may need to be reminded of is; that whilst some of the most vocal Reformers may just fit the stereotype of being thick and/or racist, these vocal anti-Reformers come across just as thick to the Reform voters who may be more reluctant to identify how they vote. Their fixed beliefs then identifies every anti-Reform voter as thick etc ...
The information was published by the Guardian, after doing what newspapers used to do, but nowadays rarely bother with… detailed investigative journalism.
Technically it was first published by the telegraph. As Farage asked the Guardian for extra time to respond but instead set up a cosy chat with the telegraph to try and spoil the story and get his propaganda out first.
I thought Starmer was elected on the proviso that any changes wouldn’t happen overnight, so why the hate?
im waaaay to the left of Starmer, and I just don’t understand his vilification, other than it being part of a USA led coup to oust him, so us brits can gorge ourselves on chlorinated chicken. Yeee Haaaw!
was there any mention in reforms waffle about transport/ the environment?
or maybe they’re steering clear of it?
reform remind me of the faction within the tories, circa 1982 that were hell bent on road building.
then the rival rural ‘cpre’ faction tried to put the brakes on them.
How long have we been having these conversations now, since 2016 at least? We lost back then because we thought we could reason with feelings and we still haven't learned that this is not possible.
Yet people resort to the same old name calling to get their opinion across.
Its frustrating reading here the same insults and same fixed beliefs from the anti-Reformers. Time and time again it falls back to a similar "I do debate nicely .. but, they are all thick and/or racist .."
What these vocal anti-Reformers may need to be reminded of is; that whilst some of the most vocal Reformers may just fit the stereotype of being thick and/or racist, these vocal anti-Reformers come across just as thick to the Reform voters who may be more reluctant to identify how they vote. Their fixed beliefs then identifies every anti-Reform voter as thick etc ...
The failure is to not acknowledge is that reform just like BREXIT is a religion.
People follow because they like the idea, changing peoples minds is hard,the media and social media are reinforcing the idea 24/7 your really not getting that same access when you have a little debate.
Gbeebies haemorrhages money but does it job,social media is cheap to pervert and the owners aren’t to be trusted, that whole narrative of broken Britain is working,the torch is not shining on the actual people who broke it or is it actually as broken as you are led to believe as some people are doing rather well.
IMHO you may have to wait till enough believers of BREXIT/Reform actually die off enough that it goes away.
Think you might be very disappointed in that case Dod
The information was published by the Guardian, after doing what newspapers used to do, but nowadays rarely bother with… detailed investigative journalism.
Yet when other people do exactly what you cheer - detailed investigative journalism - that shows up stories you are uncomfortable with, you’re perfectly happy to dismiss them as lies and propaganda with a wave of your hand
cases in point:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy8ee2w73jo
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c937wldkkw8o
just imagine you’re on PIP and/or universal credit, have seen your money cut, are paying bedroom tax, and you turn on the news and see the government are spending £1000’s on taxi’s to take an asylum seekers to the doctors.
Who do you think you are you going to vote for?
they are all thick and/or racist
I am trying to move on from this language, but admit it's hard. Ultimately, they have just as much right to vote to as me and ostracising them even further is not going to help move the country in the direction I'd prefer it to be going. They are not going to be 'shamed' into voting in a different direction.
That does not mean I don't blame them. Like America and Trump - he would still be just a cringeworthy TV personality and a dubious business person without millions of voters enabling him. Farage and his ilk in the UK would be similarly insignificant without people putting an X in the reform box on polling day. Trump's negative impact on the world whilst in office is quite literally the fault of tens and tens of millions of US voters every bit as much as it is Trump's personally. It'll be the same in the UK.
I think the issue is not that voters for this kind of rhetoric are thick, but they are not not prepared to think with any sort of nuance. They are not interested in reading around subjects and informing themselves. They are drawn to simple solutions, people and policies to blame and quick 'fixes'. My FiL is a great example of the type - his is proud to tell you he likes to think of the world in black and white. If you were to ask him to explain his views, list the policies of his chosen Reform party or explain specifically what he doesn't like about other party's policies he'd just get angry and accuse you of trying to catch him out. He fundamentally refuses to acknowledge that sometimes things are hard, that compromise is something people running stuff have to manage and even if something does not benefit you personally it still might be the right choice.
I am at a loss to know where we go from here. If you look back to 2016 and compare it to today I'd say we are in a much worse position now. Views that few would express in public prior to the brexit vote are now commonplace. Being 'a bit intolerant' has gone from something folk might acknowledge they probably have to work on sorting and only comes out after a few pints, to a badge of honour and the new baseline. I've mentioned it before but Winter by Len Deighton is a chilling novel about the change in the German mindset in the 40 years before WWII. A boiling frog analogy I guess. I recognise a lot of society today within the pages.
They are drawn to simple solutions, people and policies to blame and quick 'fixes'
‘Rejoin the EU’, ‘Tax the rich’, ‘Stop the Genocide’…
Well the rich should certainly be taxed more.
I don’t like thousands of pounds wasted, but I dislike the millions that we give in tax breaks to petro chem companies. Didn’t we bail out Ineos with 120 million recently. The guy is worth 22 billion and lives in a tax haven in Monaco…..
And I maybe simplifying the argument but if it’s good enough for one side….
Oh and the whole of the drill for more oil that reform spout is according to most experts rubbish.
To remove ourselves from the mercy of oil prices we need to invest in renewables.
I am at a loss to know where we go from here. If you look back to 2016 and compare it to today I'd say we are in a much worse position now. Views that few would express in public prior to the brexit vote are now commonplace.
From what people older than myself tell me, prior to Brexit result, the opinion of how a person voted was never as downright nasty.
As soon as Brexit result was known name calling began quite viciously. Even here, now, 10 years later, certain people are literally fixated with it, and nobody has a chance to alter their distorted false belief that Brexit and Reform are religions, and every single person voting for Brexit or Reform are thick and/or racist.
And having these vocal anti-Reformers spewing their hate is certainly not encouraging people to alter their views on Reform.
Just maybe , when the Reform voters and councillors have been in in office for a few months they might decide local politics really isn't for them.
Dealing with the day to day hum drum of the benign , non political stuff like the route for the boy scouts remembrance day parade and associated road closures, the fact the bin men have missed Mrs Higgs collection for 3 weeks in a row ,the Oak trees need some rotting branches removed from the park but the local greenies are opposed to any trimming, the level of fly tipping and cost of cleaning it all up plus the constant battle of cars v potholes and approving those bloody cycle paths which you know only 1% of constituents might use twice a year
It's not driving a bus full of brown people to the airport to be deported at gun point down a road lined with people cheering and waving union jack flags . Then the voters will wonder why nothing is being done to achieve the above because that's why they voted Reform , perhaps.
I voted green as the Reform and Tory crowd constantly lie about making things happen that had absolutely nothing to do with them at all.
As soon as Brexit result was known name calling began quite viciously.
BNP and to a lesser extent UKIP voters aways had their motives questioned. For good reason. What’s different is that Brexit properly put the wind under Farage’s sales… and now his party (well version three of it) is no longer seen as just a protest vote. You can vote for “Farage’s lot” and it can result in wins. Voting far right could result in the government you want. That’s powerful stuff for many.
Have you read those articles? I don’t think they are the gotchya you think they are.
True, of course, and it's interesting that regardless of the content, the headlines could have come straight from GBeebies.
From what people older than myself tell me, prior to Brexit result, the opinion of how a person voted was never as downright nasty.
not in my memory. shites have always been called out. look up bevins quote about lower than vermin
Just maybe , when the Reform voters and councillors have been in in office for a few months they might decide local politics really isn't for them.
There'll be a bit of that, I believe at least one councillor has already quit because they don't want the job but there's also the the grifters who want in on the planning committee and the procurement team because they know they can make it work for them... See the Doncaster councillors who set up an accidentally misleading named company around the new / reopening airport or the Chesterfield property developer who keeps having his plans rejected or the one who has been using mayoral cars as private taxis. They already know local politics isn't for them but they'll stick with it to enrich themselves and everything else can be ignored because they are in charge.
