[Closed] The re-wilding of Britain

They are. They hunt under certain conditions but arent exactly built for it. Hence why I am fascinated by stevextc claim about them resulting in other raptors being endangered.
A buzzard can take rabbits but the growth in their numbers have had nothing to do with reintroduction schemes and even then I would doubt their ability to seriously depress a rabbit population.

I did wonder if Rabbits are even being killed or if they're just stuck under cover because there's always some kind of broad winged BoP circling over head like a drone over Afganistan. Even if it isn't gonna eat them they don't know that and stay down.

Scotland needs to grow more trees before it starts anything else.

oh and so does England and Wales.

some kind of broad winged BoP circling over head like a drone over Afganistan

A good trick is to lie very still in the middle of a field. See how close the kite gets before it realises you're still alive (or your bottle goes and you shoo it off).

Scotland needs to grow more trees before it starts anything else.

oh and so does England and Wales.

So why are we spending millions cutting them down to reinstate heathland?

Scotland needs to grow more trees before it starts anything else.
oh and so does England and Wales.

So why are we spending millions cutting them down to reinstate heathland?

Madness, Scotland and most of our uplands were tree covered many moons ago..

Heathland was sparse in comparison.

A good trick is to lie very still in the middle of a field. See how close the kite gets before it realises you're still alive (or your bottle goes and you shoo it off).

I once slept on a Hillside and woke up to find a massive White shape gliding stationary into the wind over my face, close enough for me to hear the wind in its wings. I shreiked like a girl and the Owl (for that is what it was) flew off.

Im pretty sure that it had mistaken my eyes, nose and mouth (all that was visible in the DPM Bivvy Bag) for something edible. I've often wondered if I'd not woken would talons have gripped my eyeballs.

Im not sure on the red kites taking out rabbits for food but the rise of buzzards and magpies has had a large effect on the song birds where I am I see 10/20 very large buzzards every day and hardly no Hawks although the sparrow hawk has made a small come back this year. I know the buzzards don't target small birds I think the have just moved them on. The magpies on the other hand are eating so many chicks and disturbing nests it's a real problem.
As I said before if they want wolves and less deer just plant trees again not those pines that the Forrestry commission stick in the ground but the oaks and other hardwoods that got burn down under James V

Ninfan - in Scotland they are not cutting down trees to reinstate heathland. ( well maybe tiny bits I have never hear of. They are slowly replanting / regenerating the Caledonian forest in may parts of the highlands and from my recent walk its working. Rewilding is a stupid term really 'cos when was it wild? I'd like to see the tree cover we had pre clearances restored in Scotland. Don't know enough to say owt about southern England and what is happening there

I can see the attraction of having wolves - and if we had a land bridge to scandenavia I am sure they would be here now - but to deliberately create a wolf pack to roam free in the highlands? Never going to happen

ninfan - Member

Scotland needs to grow more trees before it starts anything else.

oh and so does England and Wales.

So why are we spending millions cutting them down to reinstate heathland?

To re-instate heathland.

So why are we spending millions cutting them down to reinstate heathland?

http://www.snh.gov.uk/climate-change/taking-action/carbon-management/peatland-action/

Wolves? Why stop there? There are hippo fossils round these parts (yorkshire)...

The magpies on the other hand are eating so many chicks and disturbing nests it's a real problem.

Why *are* there so many magpies at the moment?

Another question, what are the mechanics of introducing new speicies to the Uk? I presume I can't just buy half a dozen bears and let them go in Brecon. So who would be in charge of the 'letting wolves go' project? Would they then have legal liability if a Wolf started eating sheep/chickens/vicars?

I'm open minded to the idea, depends on the details.

There was quite a thought provoking display in the National Museum of Scotland a couple of years ago, imagining that wolves were reintroduced to an area to keep the deer population under control. It focused on the benefits with wildlife tourism and rebalancing the natural ecosystem in a slightly biased manner, but it turned my view from "don't be so stupid" to "it might be worth looking at"

If the wolves eat vicars surely it's just an act of God?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/01/rewilding-conservation-ecology-national-trust

Wild boar are nothing but a pest we have 1000s of the Barstewards cause a shed load of damage everywhere and then you end up with the woods closed all the time so the hunters can have their fun.

Why *are* there so many magpies at the moment?

They're the only animals versatile and intelligent enough to survive once humans have completely screwed their natural habitat? Sort of like the cockroaches of the avian world? Them and crows, seagulls and pigeons anyway.

We're in a new build estate at the moment. The retired couple next door are trying to attract birds to their garden but all they are getting is crows (a murder of 9 most mornings hanging around) and magpies.

I like all birds, but would like a bit of variety, nothing but crows and magpies seems a little 'Brothers Grimm' for my tastes...

What's the objective of 're-wilding' the Lake District? Is it habitat creation, wildlife protection? Or is it so that visitors who earn their crust in cities can smile at the wildness and to alleviate flooding (is that not quite wild?).
Why are some communities/livelihoods forced out for re-wilding to please others, who don't live there?

I'm not against it and there are some great examples of it starting - Ennerdale is just over the hill from me. However, the population isn't decreasing any time soon, so what is it trying to achieve.

Hill farmers could do a great deal to help with flood alleviation etc and several here have already. Managing stock/grazing densities would help. Re-introducing Lynx and wolves however........

wicki - Member

Wild boar are nothing but a pest we have 1000s of the Barstewards cause a shed load of damage everywhere

Tasty tasty pests.

and then you end up with the woods closed all the time so the hunters can have their fun.

So hunt them. Win win.

[s]Wild boar[/s] Humans are nothing but a pest we have 1000s of the Barstewards cause a shed load of damage

boxelder - Member
What's the objective of 're-wilding' the Lake District? Is it habitat creation,

Yes

wildlife protection?

Yes

...to alleviate flooding

Yes

Why are some communities/livelihoods forced out for re-wilding to please others, who don't live there?

Where are/were these communities that have been forced out for re-wilding...?

(I've heard that the NT(?) bought a small farm, high up in the Lake District, but nobody got forced out)

The National Trust own loads of farms in the LD. Not really into re-wilding though are they?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Lakes isn't just a National Park for it's scenic beauty. There's a cultural heritage etc that has hill farming at it's heart. Hill farming is in decline anyway, but what will re-wilding bring for people who live here?
I've a degree in Environmental Science, so I'm not oppose to it - just not happy to accept that 'wild' is necessarily good.

[url= http://www.wildennerdale.co.uk ]Ennerdale[/url] is certainly 'nicer' now.

boxelder - Member
The National Trust own loads of farms in the LD. Not really into re-wilding though are they?

They bought one a year or so ago with more or less that specific aim, it's caused some alarm...

Lot of townies conjecturing and pontificating on this thread, eh?

The reintroduction of predators will happen several centuries after you stop gamies shooting Hen Harriers. There are plenty of other problems with land management and ownership that need resolved first.

I've just read Feral by George Monbiot. Its worth a read, he basically says if we stopped grazing on some land it would rewild itself and be fantastic for wildlife.

Scathing about wildlife trusts and National Parks etc who claim their grazed land is some type of wilderness. National Parks in other countries are much more wild than our own and we have MUCH less true wilderness than other European countries.

Not so sure about wolves on a small island like this.

The beaver experiment worked though

We can always do with more beaver.

With the amount of scumbags out 'hunting' deer, badgers, sheep and anything else that moves with their dogs not sure wolves would stand much of a chance. Their locations would be found out and then the scum would move in.

It's a stupid idea anyway. What was the population of these islands the last time we had wolves here? Maybe we should cut back the number of people first.

This thread perfectly presents how this discussion gets derailed.

Suggestion: Easing off the intensive grazing / draining / shooting / dredging in some upland / lowland / marshy areas, offering plants and critters help where practical / cost effective.

Response: Wolves!?!?

I presume I can't just buy half a dozen bears and let them go in Brecon.

Dammit! That's my plan in utter ruins now then.

I have a recollection of a tv programme featuring Aubrey [s]Burl[/s] Manning ([s]Ancient[/s] Talking Landscapes [s]or something[/s], oh 10-15 years ago) where he stated that most of the BI deforestation took place during the Neolithic.

On the other hand I might just have been of my tits on something....

The Highlands were not a wilderness.

They were once.

I mean most of thier prey has been eradicated over the centuries

No, tons of deer all over the place. They are a pest in fact in many circumstances.

As for numbers - there are plenty of instances of heavily managed predator populations in the US. They have a whole government department for managing wildlife. It doens't cost anything - in fact it makes a fat profit. Instead of paying gamekeepers you let people pay you for tickets so they can come and shoot whatever you need culled.

eagles won't eat ramblers. Wolves probably will

Don't think so. Between 1952 and 2002 in the USA there were three fatal attacks. And many many more wolves than we would ever be able to support.
Think wolves stay away from people to avoid getting shot.

Wild boar are nothing but a pest we have 1000s of the Barstewards cause a shed load of damage everywhere

Maybe re-introduce a predator or two? 🙂

Tbh I don't think we've got the space for wolves. Unless we can come up with some kind of technological solution like electric shock vests for sheep. It doesn't have to be wolves and bears that get reintroduced though. Beavers, wildcats and so on would be welcome.

Just imagine, East Anglia will soon be empty when all the fruit and veg farmers can no longer operate without European labour. It'll make wonderful wetland habitat.

Re-wilding would have to start with taking most of the land into government ownership first. Maybe when we can synthesise all our food in factories it'd be a goer.

ahwiles - Member

This thread perfectly presents how this discussion gets derailed.

Suggestion: Easing off the intensive grazing / draining / shooting / dredging in some upland / lowland / marshy areas, offering plants and critters help where practical / cost effective.

Response: Wolves!?!?

Erm, did you even read the OP?

Heard an item about it on Radio 4 the other day. They're talking about reintroducing [b]wolves [/b]to parts of Scotland and Wales.

What do you think about this in principle, and about [b]wolves [/b]specifically?

Anyway Beavers, lets talk about Beavers I went to the introduction site in Devon, the positive effect on the flora is startling, I presume the insects are as happy too and thats before all the reduction in water fliws through the catchment.

Beavers should definitely be reintroduced and not just in enclosures. Wolves too. Big cats would be pretty cool too.

Hm.

They dammed Cardiff Bay some years ago. There were a lot of concerns about the loss of the tidal mud flats. But now the once tidal area of the river is lined with reeds and rushes that must be great habitat.

Re-wilding or not?

Lots of issues in France with wolves . They go for the sheeps .

they are very clever animals and have moved from the Alps and their numbers are increasing rapidly .

Where I live there are frequent attacks on sheeps .

An observation on the earlier talk of Lakes rewilding.

I love the lakes, even coming from north of the border, it's my favourite place to ride, I have a real affinity with the area, just love it.

But by God it's barren, I can't think of an area up here that has so little wildlife, ive been biking there for years, and can't really ever recall seeing any wildlife of note, save the otters on Windermere.

molgrips - Member
'The Highlands were not a wilderness."
They were once.

Has anyone suggested genetically engineered midge-eating yet otherwise vegitarian mini-wolves yet?

Otherwise, I'm not convinced.

No bears.
Do not look at pictures of bear attack survivors.

Beavers, yes.
Everyone likes beavers.

And someone needs to give Delia a bung to promote venison.

They bought one a year or so ago with more or less that specific aim, it's caused some alarm...

No they didn't. They bought just the land, leaving someone else to buy the farmhouse. It's 20 mins from home and I camped out 'wild' on the land on Saturday.

the "alarm" was actually disappointment that the farm land has been hived off from the farmhouse, so breaking up a key Borrowdale farm.
I agree with them doing it though, as it would have been bought by someone else - probably not a local farmer.

From NT site:

Our plans for the future

We'll continue to farm this land and we believe we can look after it in way which benefits nature, our visitors and the local community.

We already manage much of the surrounding land in Borrowdale, which means we can take a ‘big picture’ view of how we look after the wider landscape. That allows us to continue farming and at the same time deliver healthy soil, natural water management, thriving natural habitats and continued public access.

We will also explore how we may be able to use the farm to slow the flow of the Upper River Derwent, thereby contributing to the prevention of flooding downstream in communities such as Keswick and Cockermouth.

The Trust has a long history of and is committed to the tradition of Herdwick farming. We have an existing stock of 21,000 Herdwick sheep and we own 54 farms in the Fells.

The land will be managed by a tenant, and we have already had several expressions of interest. It will be farmed with nature in mind but it will continue to support a flock of Herdwick sheep.

Hardly recreating wilderness. They've put some nice new gates in, and fencing.

Another example is the reintroduction or success of the Red Kite... which has gone from endangered to making other native raptors endangered.

Has it? Dont suppose you care to mention those raptors it is endangering do you and the source of this claim?

The uplands will need to be re-populated with humans.

Given that increasing global population, eventually we'll need to move people back into the country and reclaim all the low-lying, high-value and flood-prone agricultural land from the cities.

Brexit merely illustrated the lack of a coherent regional policy (redistributing people and wealth evenly across the uk).

So it's more about re-wilding the cities (like Crysis 2)

I'd recommend re-settling the uk's poorest families back to the country (like pre-enclosure/ clearances), give them say, 40 acres and a mule and pay them to grow hemp on the poorest land. Apparently it's a great nitrogen fixer and co2 trap.
One acre of hemp makes four times more paper than an acre of trees...

but the rise of buzzards and magpies has had a large effect on the song birds where I am

I've recently read Monbiot's Feral, too. Well worth it on this subject - you won't look at our 'wild' landscapes the same ever again. Basically, nature creates it's own checks and balances which humans have messed up big time, and worryingly sometimes out of good intent.

If anyone wants the book, I'll post it for a Treesforlife donation.

Buzzards are almost as common as bloody pigeons,

Kites will soon make Buzzards seem illusive and rare. The reason they were quite casually wiped out in the uk was because they were so common place nobody cared about them - 'Shitehawks'. London was hoaching with them "City of kites and crows" as Shakespere would put it.

And this is my point about fashion - we don't consider the animals that actually thrive in our environment 'natural' enough, ignoring the darwinian forces that allow them to thrive - rats, pigeons, midges, bedbugs, ticks ( 😉 ) urban foxes are 'pests' and we imagine that 'nature' is something else and that we have to create and manage it to make it happen.

Kites are lovely but the natural population levels they'll tend towards will be less like the odd soaring raptor over a bucolic countryside and more like a swarm of seagulls on a landfill site - they're 'nature' too by the way.

Kites:
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