Forum menu
Heard an item about it on Radio 4 the other day. They're talking about reintroducing wolves to parts of Scotland and Wales.
What do you think about this in principle, and about wolves specifically?
I think it great. The massive rise in birds of prey numbers has been fab. Love the wild boar wandering around the forest of Dean. Would love see wolves too. And bears
Conservation, preservation and all of that doesn't work in isolation. If you can return the eco system to where it was with all of the food and hunters then maybe, problem in some managed areas is there is not the diversity that there once was. I've heard decent things about some of the programs in the states but were they in much more wilderness areas?
Love the wild boar wandering around the forest of Dean
Have they not caused 'mayhem' with local gardens/greens, digging them up etc? or is that somewhere else down south? agree on the introduction of former indigenous species- a good thing. Though i think i read recently of problems with beavers (calm down) causing problems in areas where they've been introduced.
Effing bonkers idea.
Trying to create an environment that never was.
In Scotland those hills used to be hooching with people and their cattle. The Highlands were not a wilderness.
If they want to reintroduce a species into the depopulated areas, how about exterminating the pestilent big landowners, and let native highlanders have the land back. (We'd put windmills on it these days 🙂 )
In Scotland those hills used to be hooching with people and their cattle. The Highlands were not a wilderness.
I think its about turning the clock back further than domesticated cattle and managed agriculture. Think thousands, not hundreds of years.
I think its about turning the clock back further than domesticated cattle and managed agriculture. Think thousands, not hundreds of years.
and how do you balance it with what is there now? What is the point? What will it achieve?
What do you think about this in principle, and about wolves specifically?
Not sure about Wolves per-se.... but it's different when you are the one living next to them with livestock to living elsewhere and saying how nice it is.
There are movements to rid our fells of sheep... introduce Lynx ... and even get rid of the farms that provide us with food....
Again...lots of ideals.... but the same people don't have an answer to selecting who gets to live and who is euthenased in their back to natural UK...
We have a certain population .. we already can't feed it... and much as a few people can enjoy self sufficiency overall it means killing or leaving to starve millions
So with respect to Wolves ... they can't be natural in todays UK... they need a range of 100's of miles... so its one thing in Alaska or Canada but entirely another in the Highlands or Wales... and the "wild" environment they would be put into isn't wild anymore (this is a shame but that's the reality)
Another example is the reintroduction or success of the Red Kite... which has gone from endangered to making other native raptors endangered.
There are certainly areas now where they need thinning out or the rest of the wildlife will suffer... so round Henley etc. it's almost too much of a good thing...
I think we would really struggle with Wolves.... how to prevent partial domestication and reliance on being fed vs killing livestock?
I can't see an "urban wolf" in the same niche as "urban fox" .. it just doesn't work (at least for me)
and how do you balance it with what is there now? What is the point? What will it achieve?
I don't know. Ask an ecologist.
Kinda see the point of reintroduced wildlife. Not 100% sure how they will cope in a man made environment, nor sure about what exactly they will be able to forage in a sanitised landscape. I mean most of thier prey has been eradicated over the centuries, so will a team of volunteers be throwing chunks of beef around the landscape ? When will the first one be shot for sheep worrying? A day, a week, less than a month I'd say. They have a prolific appetite for reproduction, so who will kill the over production ? And what will happen when a cull is required ?
Imforsee plenty of whataboutery...
I'm all for rewilding in terms of flora and fauna - ie creagh meagaidh, but predators such as wolves or bears? Too small a country, there's no real wilderness here.
Apparently part of the reintroduction plans is the return of Neanderthals, Woolly Mammoths and to keep it all in check Sabre Tooth Tigers.
Whos' benefit is this for? The eco system as a whole, particular species, someone who want a bit of Wales to be like rural Canada?
Yeah, I can’t see this happening, other than maybe on managed estates (which has already happened in certain circumstances I believe, although I may have just made that up).
Wolves, and especially bears, are big, dangerous animals, and as much as I love the romanticised thought of it, as soon as someone is killed by one, there would an uproar. I think we would be much better off improving the life of these animals in their current environments.
Stuff the wolves,I WANT WOOLY MAMMOTHS.
We have a certain population .. we already can't feed it... and much as a few people can enjoy self sufficiency overall it means killing or leaving to starve millions
are you suggesting rewilding some bits of Scotland would cause famine in east africa?
Reintroduction of wolves would probably be the best thing that could happen in terms of boosting flora and fauna. The biggest issue we have with reforestation is the number of deer, which in the highlands border on being a pest, and the wolves would certainly be helpful in keeping the numbers down.
Wasn't there a video doing the rounds a couple of months ago highlighting the positive impact of the reintroduction of wolves into Yellowstone?
Conceptually I don't have a fundamental problem with reintroducing species. If you accept that, then its difficult to see why you would automatically say no to wolves. Why are eagles ok buy wolves are not? There are big enough sections of Scotland that are unoccupied (and I don't believe there is a queue of people looking to return to managing the land). I am sure I read somewhere that if there is sufficient food each pack occupies a radius of <5 miles. i'm not sure how many packs you need to have a sustainable population.
My main concern is that the biggest "pro-wolf" campaigner, was [cynical mode] actually a very large landowner looking for a way to fence off his estate and keep the great unwashed out [/cynical mode].
I'm doing my bit.
I currently run a dandelion sanctuary.
Dandelions are good for bees. We need more bees.
I'm all for it, in Wales we still have huge expanses of unused land. I was quietly pleased when I heard that some farmed Boar had escaped near Afan a few years ago, I hoped they'd take hold like they have in FOD but I've heard nothing since.
The largest challenge, well after the whole "won't someone pleeeeeese think of the Children" Daily Wail fall out, will be ensuring there's a food source for them - Black Bears shouldn't be a problem, they'll eat almost anything but stop at small mammals and fish.
Wolves though, bit harder, they eat Mountain Goats, Bison, Boar, Deer and Livestock - given we don't have a lot of them about, it's going to be most Livestock so they're going to get shot, on top of that in other parts of Europe when they run out of prey they are known to scavenge like Foxes, I don't think many people will put up with Urban Wolves.
I am sure I read somewhere that if there is sufficient food each pack occupies a radius of <5 miles. i'm not sure how many packs you need to have a sustainable population.
If you feed them and put up fences.... but that isn't "wild".. it's more like a "domesticated cat" (which is only usually semi domesticated) ... you quickly end up with fat, lazy and semi domesticated wolves... that you very quickly need to prevent breeding ... and nowhere for outcasts to go and start their own pack...
In the wild there is no such thing as "enough food"... the pack gets bigger the less time they spend hunting the higher the survival rate for the pups, leadership changes according to food (more intelligent wolves become pack leaders when food is scarce)
The only way 5 miles could feed wolves is by constantly chucking in more prey... in the wild the pack move... split and change their behaviour due to food supply...
Deer and Livestock - given we don't have a lot of them about
Eh? Scotland is bloody polluted with deer!
There are movements to rid our fells of sheep... introduce Lynx ... and even get rid of the farms that provide us with food....
A confused set of statements.
Introduce Lynx is completely separate from the others.
For the farms and sheep on the fells. They dont provide much food hence why they have to be so heavily subsidised to maintain a ideal world view favoured by some which results in a very poor overall environment. If we are spending large amounts of money surely we should push for good results.
As for lynx. There seems to be a good case to be made with regards to reducing deer and rabbit populations.
Another example is the reintroduction or success of the Red Kite... which has gone from endangered to making other native raptors endangered.
Has it? Dont suppose you care to mention those raptors it is endangering do you and the source of this claim?
Wasn't there a video doing the rounds a couple of months ago highlighting the positive impact of the reintroduction of wolves into Yellowstone?
Yellowstone is almost half the size of Wales... total population less than 500
If there's on thing this country needs, it's more panthers.
Mon the panthers!
Fundamental difference between eagles and wolves; eagles won't eat ramblers. Wolves probably will*.
I'm not sure whether this makes me pro or anti...
*Statistically speaking, at some point.
Trying to create an environment that never was.
'Conservation' seems to be a fashion business. We have all sorts of ideas of what is 'natural' and ideas about how we could change things to make them more natural.
However the things that happen naturally we seem to dislike. Nature seems to favour rats and pigeons and algae, we like the idea of something more 'noble'.
Conservation 'tastes' seems to be aligned to tourism tastes and I wonder if its an aesthetic that dates back to colonialism and new frontiers. We seem to like an idea of feeling like the first person to have set eyes on something - to have passed over the horizon into new uncharted territory. So in the Highlands of Scotland or Yellowstone Park or the Amazon Basin or whatever we want a vista that seems to have no previous human footprints. And we we kid ourselves that we want to create these worlds for the benefit of 'nature' but the reality is we want to create these human-less worlds so that we can go on holiday there.
I think it needs to be done in small steps.
My little 'if I was first minister' idea would be to ask landowners to create wild 'corridors' near rivers, perhaps a set of deer fences running parallel 1km either side of the river, up to a certain height, say 300m. Perhaps sweeten the deal by allowing them to drive access tracks up the uphill side of the fences, improve their access.
Obviously they would need to bring the fences down to the river at certain points to allow the deer to cross and drink etc. but the net effect would be some really beautiful wild zones near rivers which would make some excellent hiking through routes also.
Other than the labour and materials to do it, I'm not sure how much the landowners would lose out, would it be a significant enough area lost to deer hunting that it would affect their business model?
Edit: actually thinking about it, 1km either side of a river would be too big, maybe 500m either side.
Other than the labour and materials to do it
Get mexico to pay for it
Nature seems to favour rats and pigeons and algae, we like the idea of something more 'noble'.
Pigeons and rats do well because of us.
Conservation 'tastes' seems to be aligned to tourism tastes
Conservation covers several wildly differing philosophies.
From maintaining the countryside as is to rewilding. The latter may or may not end up attracting tourists in the same numbers. It is one of the arguments against it in the Lake District and Wales.
maccruiskeenConservation 'tastes' seems to be aligned to tourism tastes and I wonder if its an aesthetic that dates back to colonialism and new frontiers. We seem to like an idea of feeling like the first person to have set eyes on something - to have passed over the brow into new uncharted territory. So in the Highlands of Scotland or Yellowstone Park or the Amazon Basin or whatever we want a vista that seems to have no previous human footprints. And we we kid ourselves that we want to create these worlds for the benefit of 'nature' but the reality is we want to create these human-less worlds so that we can go on holiday there.
Not necessarily, wolves were hunted out of Yellowstone which resulted in an explosion in elk numbers (among others). The overabundance of elk destroyed the environment and other animals suffered as well as suppression of many types of tree.
It's analogous to what's going on in parts of England, Ireland and Scotland albeit on a bigger scale. We have deer, their populations need to be controlled. So is it better to blow their brains out or have wolves do it "naturally"? There are numerous rewilding projects ongoing all over the world so it's not without precedent. It's cynical to say it's simply about tourism - the presence of wolves or bears would deter as many (if not many more people) than it would entice.
Surprised no one has posted this yet.
Fwiw, sounds great but considering the effort that gamekeepers go to to kill birds of prey etc, it'd cause a lot of issues
Prof Brazier says we should reintroduce beavers, might be less problematic than Wolves!!!
TBH I think the massive estates which are set up for the huntin', shootin' and fishin' brigade are missing a trick here.
If you're the kinda guy that gets off on blasting a grouse out of the air or sneaking up on a deer to shoot it then surely it would be even more fun if you threw a couple of tigers into the mix to spice it up a bit.
It would be a much more adrenaline fuelled experience if a gang of tweed clad beaters managed to flush an enraged rhinoceros out of the heather.
Not necessarily, wolves were hunted out of Yellowstone which resulted in an explosion in elk numbers (among others). The overabundance of elk destroyed the environment and other animals suffered as well as suppression of many types of tree.
Wolves were hunted out... but so were people.
It's cynical to say it's simply about tourism - the presence of wolves or bears would deter as many (if not many more people) than it would entice.
Its not simply about tourism - I'm saying the tastes as to what to 'conserve' ( or recreate) echoes the tastes we have as tourists. A tourist, for instance, would love the idea of other tourists being deterred.
I had a walk through Birkenhead town centre the other day and I must say, some of the species they've reintroduced there I didn't know existed.
Re: removing hill farms/farmers in The Lakes etc and them needing subsidies........
They'll survive without subsidies, they'll just have to spend less time and cash on keeping walls nice and tending woodland, removing bracken etc.
The local community will collapse further as more locals leave to be replaced by those who've made their money elsewhere and think they should now retire somewhere peaceful. Very few seem to buy in and rewild...
The Lakes was a working environment for centuries - quarries, mining, bobbin mills, farming.
Baby and bathwater.........
Firsts first - get rid of Global chainstores etc and think local.
Re-introduce wolves while bringing back fox hunting and badger culls 🙄
Another example is the reintroduction or success of the Red Kite... which has gone from endangered to making other native raptors endangered.
We seem to have loads at the moment here in North Norfolk, have gone from seeing the occasional one over last few years to seeing them in groups most days. I didn't know they had a detrimental effect on other raptors though, we seem to have seen a rise in smaller hawks and barn owls too over last few years. As i commute to work on bike i've a barn owl that follows me and always breaks off at the same point, obviously the edge of his territory.
Not
I had a walk through Birkenhead town centre the other day and I must say, some of the species they've reintroduced there I didn't know existed.
You've obviously never been to springburn......
"Unused" land in Wales tends not to be as unused as people think, and definitely not as continuouse and in a uniform blob as people think.
Re: removing hill farms/farmers in The Lakes etc and them needing subsidies........
They'll survive without subsidies, they'll just have to spend less time and cash on keeping walls nice and tending woodland, removing bracken etc.
The thing about those upland farms is they were never really profitable in the sense of supporting families, they were more to subsidise and men would also work in mines, building railways etc so the levels of stock would go up and down depending. Then when subsidies came in they were farmed more intensively.
It's nonsense, primarily because the one thing they don't want is anything "wild"
Take a look at the lowland heaths and commons of the UK - over the past fifty years they truly have been 'rewilded' - huge areas of common land that pre WW2 were subject to agricultural grazing, along with coppicing and collection of firewood have been left pretty much abandoned. Mainly covered in dank, low value scrub or decrepit woodland, the effort over the past decade has been to clear this back to open Heath and maintain with grazing - two thing leading this, SSSI/SAC/SPA status for birds like Nightjar and Dartford Warbler, and HLF funding. The environment these birds thrive in (along also with reptile species) is as far from wild as you can imagine, it's an artificially maintained sub-climax community where they have to run around fighting fires every summer.
As for the northern 'rewilding' again, they want anything but 'wild' - they again want to maintain a romanticised idyll but this time of Caledonian woodland, in the false belief that a few wolves can keep check on the deer population, again, all they will end up with is patches of sterile floored woodland and shite low value scrub that burns itself out every few years.
Nobeerinthefridge - MemberDeer and Livestock - given we don't have a lot of them about
Eh? Scotland is bloody polluted with deer!
Sorry, by "We" I meant Wales - we do have some deer, but not huge numbers.
My post was very Wales centric
The Lakes was a working environment for centuries - quarries, mining, bobbin mills, farming.
What do we have now? A denuded, heavily managed landscape that is the opposite of wild, and which is a significant contributory factor in flooding downstream. Get rid of the sheep and bring back the trees.