If an MP can't understand that a Cabinet position (shadow or otherwise) means he has to behave and not just try and cause as much trouble as possible, then yes he should be de-selected (IMO). He's putting his (or her) ego before that of the party.
I thought that there's only been one by-election since Corbyn has been made leader, and that Labour did really well?
Hasn't their membership gone up by a lot as well?
So if an MP upholds official party policy on Trident (or another point of policy from the manifesto on which the public elected them a few months ago) in opposition to new party leader policy on Trident - should they be sacked or protected?
Dunno, but if you publically side with with your party leader's opponents, including the leader of the opposing party, then you must expect some negative consequences.
The night of the short teaspoons was a bit of a let down really
Still we have moved from "broad church" to "loyally" with remarkable rapidly. I hope those who believed the "as big a tent as possible" narrative are not too disappointed. Same old dirty politics, why would it be any different???
Oh look another right whinge circle jerk.
Great input....
My point stands. The most successful period of Labour power in the last few decades came courtesy of Blair and his mates, who are roundly by labour supporters thought to be not left wing. Ed Milliband (deffo left wing) got beat by Dave.....
Idealism is great but people who don't like coconuts won't buy coconuts. Labour would have a better chance at making changes, even if they fall short of the "ideal" with a more moderate stance. Better that than naff all surely? Or would you prefer more tory?
he conservatives aren't really any better - each party has a lightning rod issue that has the capacity to tear it apart.Nah...apart from some misgivings about how we deal with the European issues, the Tories are pretty well together in the main.
Personally speaking, I'm [i]highly[/i] concerned about the recent Tory developments on Europe. I was hoping for a coherent stance (which agrees with my own opinion, obviously 🙂 )
The reality is ever single leader surrounds themselves with people who share their vision and /or toe the line. Its nothing unusual from corbym
What about the new politics we were promised? 😥
Ed Milliband (deffo left wing) got beat by Dave.....
he was barely left wing and he was not beaten because he was a rabid lefty he was beaten because he was ed milliband No one could be enthused by him.
Similarly Blair did not win [ initially] because he was right wing the tories were largely unelectable and John SMith would have won as well
I agree its questionable as to whether a more left wing labour party can motivate folk and win but only time will tell.
Vote Labour at your peril as they want to hand over ALL powers to EUSSR to become a zombie maggot state.
Again, you hear it from me first, I told you so and I see you coming ... 😆
Well, it worked so well in 1981...
Missed the rest of my post, then? 😉
The reason it didn't work in 1981 was that the electoral system doesn't allow for more than two main parties.
Ha! If it is any consolation, they are wittering about this very subject on R4 right now, and when one of the political commentators said that the Labour Party was actually two parties, as are the Tories, I said out loud; "That's wot that there Rachel said!" 😆Sure I just wrote that…
Rachel
What about the new politics we were promised?
I don't think we were ever promised that it was OK for Labour shadow cabinet MPs to side with Cameron against the party leader.
I don't think we were ever promised that it was OK for Labour shadow cabinet MPs to side with Cameron against the party leader.
You understand the concepts of whipped vs free votes?
Corbyns current reaction is like the result that normally comes after asking your Mrs if you can buy a new bike, and being told "it's your money, do what you want"
You understand the concepts of whipped vs free votes?
I was not referring to that. I had more in mind McFadden's rhetorical "question" about terrorists at PMQ after Paris, as well as Eagle's support for the General (?) who pronounced that Corbyn was a threat to security.
I wonder if it's a function of our two party system that creates all this binary thinking.
But just one point: the Conservative party has been going through this for years over Europe - look at the rise of UKIP and the fact we're going to have an in-out referendum on EU membership with free campaigning in the cabinet all because the various Conservative leaders (not least Cameron, as it's on his watch) haven't sorted out this in-fighting.
But we've all become normalised to this, so Labour's current troubles are today's news.
Labour party elites always give me the impression as a group of people taking the working class people for a joy ride without them knowing ... 😮
Things are very different now than they were in the eighties or even in Blairs 90's, the expenses scandal, the banking scandal, the global corporate culture that pervades all walks of life, the perception of deceipt by Clegg and the coilition, the failure of UKIP (by those that wanted change rather than any right wing policies and racial issues) Corbyn is viewed by the same slightly not normally political group as someone more in touch with the real world. Even the painting of him and this PLP nightmare by the media as chaotic is playing into his hands if he did but realise it, he is stronger than most realise.
We live in a world where we can't trust either what we're told, or what we read, it's pretty much Global Capitolist Feudalism where even the weather forecasts are bent to further profit and speculation by a so obviously manipulated media, but we now have the reality of social media and the power for anarchy contained therein.
If this guy were allowed to fail or the PLP made the serious error not to leave him in place for at least one election there would be uproar and the Labour Party would never recover. We are long overdue a swing to the left, the pendulum has never quite swung far enough to purge the ghastly for profit only world we suffer.
Millions dying in the pursuit of OIL ffs The Planet being raped and destroyed for profit, quite literally destorying our own habitat for the same short term profit that the city bastards consider when closing our industry and piling thousands onto the scrap heap whilst destroying entire societies, we're all sick of it, many many many more folk than the PLP realise. If they'd only sort a green agenda as well they could romp home, hopefully in time to stop the frakking catastrophe.
Sorry about the rant, I'm a bit touchy about all this, wont happen again just needed to get it out.
There simply needs to be turmoil in the labour party for a few years. If there isn't, the party isn't changing.
Imo all the news channels are doing, by portraying these current issues negatively, is showing up their bias.
I look forward to more of it. 🙂
My point stands. The most successful period of Labour power in the last few decades came courtesy of Blair and his mates, who are roundly by labour supporters thought to be not left wing.
It doesn't necessarily follow that the only way the Labour Party can get elected is to be more Tory than Tory (which was the Blair strategy).
Ah yes the revisionist history where labour under Blair were always more Tory than the Tories. No they weren't.
The importance of of a left wing labour party isn't just to be elected, although, obviously, that's ultimately the goal. It's also about stopping the centre line of politics from going further and further to the right.
We need proper opposition, it's been incredibly weak for the last 6 years.
he was barely left wing
I suppose it depends on your perspective, but Red Ed was considerably more left wing than Tony.
It doesn't necessarily follow that the only way the Labour Party can get elected is to be more Tory than Tory (which was the Blair strategy).
As junky says, only time will tell, but it isn't looking good.
Didn't seem to be too much 'opposition' before corbyn came along. Utterly faceless bland politicians whose policies had nothing to differentiate from one another. Bollox to 'the middle ground', where was the opposition to privatising each and every industry we've ever once may have had..? 'Labour' died long ago thanks to Blair and his acolytes. At least corbyn has his principles. At least he is left wing. At least he won't cowtow to the Blairites who infest the parliamentary labour party.And there is a lot of corbyns views I don't share. Trident, Europe etc.
It's not often I agree with lodderik but on this occasion he's spot on. Corbyn is a rare creature in that he is a politician who believes in what he stands for rather than shape-shifting to fit popular opinion. Are you listening Burnham?
The importance of of a left wing labour party isn't just to be elected, although, obviously, that's ultimately the goal. It's also about stopping the centre line of politics from going further and further to the right.We need proper opposition, it's been incredibly weak for the last 6 years.
This exactly! Corbyn may not be "electable" to the majority but he will provide a credible opposition to Hameron and Gidiot, holding them to account for what they are doing. If unprincipled arseholes from the Bliar era could only realise this we may be able to curb some of their worst excesses. Sadly this won;t happen because they all want to be in charge.
Red Ed was considerably more left wing than Tony.
Ed Milliband is solely responsible for the state that the Labour party is in now. A clueless halfwit with no policies, no presence and no ****ing idea!
I was prepared to pay £3 for this entirely predictable mess. Predicted by pretty much the entire Labour hierarchy. To answer Binner's intial point yup Cameron, Sturgeon and especially Farron are bery happy right now. Corbyn's legacy will be to consign hard left poltics fringes for the foreseeable future, 20 years at least.
@footflaps deselecting means they don't stand for Labour in 2020 GE, a time by which Corbyn will be long gone. There is nothing any anti-Corbyn MP has done which could lead to a by-election.
McFadden cares about the Labour party and its supporters and well knows that without being elected to government its all just shouting in the dark. You might argue his intervention was a little aggressive or disloyal bit when the leader (and Stop the War) have spouted such complete nonsense about the causes of the attacks in Paris it is understandable he felt it was his duty to speak up. Corbyn was well and truely skewered over this vote, in the wake of the Bataclan attacks with 130 dead and a further 250 people with gunshot wounds there was only ever going to be one result. At this point and on his flagship issue he was sat in Parliament as "leader" whilst being totally eclipsed by Benn.
Its my view that the more leftish old-Labour under Corbyn will make zero in-roads in the Scottish election. Its my belief the rise of the SNP at the GE was due to Yes voters switching from Labour to the SNP under the relentless SNP messaging that Labour had sided with the Tories. Together with the much closer than expected yes/no 55/45 result.
I personally think it will be at this point that Corbyn is ousted, the SNP delivering the coup-de-grace
Red Ed FFS tabloid nom de plume that had little in substanceRed Ed was [s]considerably[/s]barely more left wing than Tony.
YOu are as principled as you are wise.I was prepared to pay £3 for this entirely predictable mess
It doesn't necessarily follow that the only way the Labour Party can get elected is to be more Tory than Tory (which was the Blair strategy)
Blair was in no way shape or form more Tory than the Tories. For a start he introduced the minimum wage something the Tories where very much against. This repeated rhetoric together with self flagalation over the Iraq war has got the Labour to where it is today, which is unelectable.
YOu are as principled as you are wise.
😀 You've started 2016 much better than you finished 2015. The rest has done you good.
My position, had I paid the £3, would have been I genuinely wanted the country to witness what a left wing agenda looks like in practice. I've no doubt Corbyn had many £3 votes from "non-traditional" lefties 😉
I've no doubt Corbyn had many £3 votes from "non-traditional" lefties
Like me 😆
Blair moved the centre of politics to the right. Brown and Milliband should've had the courage to try and move it back towards the centre. As it was they had no point of difference from the Tories except they were at the helm when the financial crash happened.
The Blairites who predicted this mess are causing it with the non-stop criticism of Corbyn, comment pieces on how he is doomed to fail etc. Blairites lost the last 2 elections ffs do they want another go? With Yvette Cooper?
Is this the way of the far left?
On which planet is Corbyn far left? He's suggesting that the state should run railways once the present franchises expire. He's not suggesting farmland should be collectivised, the FTSE should be the subject of a five year plan and that your let goldfish should be nationalised.
Its my view that the more leftish old-Labour under Corbyn will make zero in-roads in the Scottish election. Its my belief the rise of the SNP at the GE was due to Yes voters switching from Labour to the SNP under the relentless SNP messaging that Labour had sided with the Tories. Together with the much closer than expected yes/no 55/45 result.
Yes, it was the referendum which killed Labour in Scotland - though it had been dying for a decade. Corbyn won't save them - the opinion of people I talk to at least is he's a decent guy, but Scotland has moved on from UK-wide political parties. Labour's only hope in Scotland is to declare independence.
I'd quite like labour to stop falling apart and offer some proper opposition and a proper choice to the electorate and a positive vision for the future.
If the tories also self destruct over Europe then we're properly screwed. We're in a major debt crisis which needs expertise and attention to get out of. Self indulgent infighting is not what we need right now
brooess - Member
I'd quite like labour to stop falling apart and offer some proper opposition and a proper choice to the electorate and a positive vision for the future.
For me any party that becomes the poodle of EUSSR ZM state should fall apart.
Labour is also heading for destruction too with their ZM behaviour wanting to be full member of EUSSR. But the ones that will suffer most will be the working class Labour voters who I wonder if they truly know the implication of EUSSR.
😯
Tail still trying to wag the donkey, those careerists who entered via the blairite escalator have found that the gravy train no longer stops at their station --their bitterness and irrelevance will soon be forgotten--it will take a couple of years for the plp to become more reflective of the membership--but with the forthcoming economic collapse things could move much quicker--in all respects......
Ah yes the revisionist history where labour under Blair were always more Tory than the Tories. No they weren't.
True, but it's equally revisionist to pretend that the conservatives were electable in 1997 or 2001: a donkey with a red rosette would've won those elections. The point being that there's no reason to suppose that Labour's strategy then would be effective now.
Blair moved the centre of politics to the right.
Nah, that was Thatcher. Whether you supported her or not, she made a seismic shift in UK politics, which largely dictated what followed.
Tail still trying to wag the donkey, those careerists who entered via the blairite escalator have found that the gravy train no longer stops at their station
Let's hope the donkey's tail doesn't knock over the gravy train and spill the beans out the pram. That would really upset the apple cart like a bull in a brewery.
Somebody on R4 yesterday made the interesting (well I thought it was interesting) point that logically, both Labour and the Conservative Parties should, due to internal differences, each split into 2 separate parties (Labour splitting into a left and centre-left party, with the Tories splitting into a centre-right and right wing party), but because of First Past the Post, they'd rather stay together than risk having only a few seats.
FPtP really needs to go.
I said that yesterday! And so did someone with different genitals.
So you did ben, don't know how I missed that!
We have pretty consistent and conservative (little c) views in the UK. Extremes make the headlines, but moderate/centrists hold the power. The key to power is having the most compelling centre ground position. At the moment that is the Tories (just) but it will change.
Labour just need to stop misreading the reasons why they lost the last election. Until then, they will remain in a pickle.
I have come to the conclusion that a lot of politicians are really stupid, machiavellian and astute at the games of Westminster but generally thick.
Dianne Abbot this morning said she wanted peace and harmony in a party that has the interest of Britain at heart, then with the next breath flayed anyone who wasn't with Jeremy as being a snivelling turncoat.
The Blairites who predicted this mess are causing it with the non-stop criticism of Corbyn, comment pieces on how he is doomed to fail etc. Blairites lost the last 2 elections ffs do they want another go? With Yvette Cooper?
Its worse than that! Its fine to criticise if you offer some kind of alternative. But thats notable by its absence. Which means its just the sour grapes of the 'boo hoo we're not in charge any more' brigade.
A succession of the usual Blaire sock puppets have queued up to deliver there condemnation of Corbyn, but not one of them has articulated a single solitary idea as to what would replace him. There's just the muttered vague, no-specific platitudes that their glorious leader was so keen on himself, with no actual substance whatsoever. No policies. No ideology. No direction. Nothing!
And therein lies the problem with the present labour party. It was hollowed out by Blair. Purged of any discount to the degree that its now unable to think for itself
Look at the Tories. Do they look like they're in any doubt about what it is they're trying to do? What direction they're heading in ideologically?
