[Closed] The labour party

The key to power is having the most compelling centre ground position. At the moment that is the Tories (just) but it will change.

I think the whol corbyn thing is an interesting test of this [ probably true] hypothesis. Traditionally you win elections by getting the swing voters to switch sides. I would imagine 80% ish of each parties key voters would not dream of voting for the other side therefore they can be ignored. The problem both parties have is that their core supporters are more "radical"* - left wing or right wing- than the electorate at large. Whether corbyn can move the consensus or compel those who do not vot to turn up remains to be seen. IMHO its doubtful.

Personally I think the next election could be a proper shit storm as both parties look like they could be unelectable
Europe will drive a truck , laden with explosives, through the tories ranks and then self detonate at the worst possible time.
If labour get their stuff together before this then they may look the more electable option.
* Blairites get more respect on here and in the real world I assume from the right wing and centrists that they do from the lefties for example. IMHO this is just further proof of how bad the judgment is of these people 😉

As Call me Dave is giving a free vote on Europe won't that stop the worst of the infighting?

Its fine to criticise if you offer some kind of alternative.

Completely correct and it goes a a good way to explain why Corbyn is in power; as the other 3 candidates failed to offer any real vision and direction for the party.

A succession of the usual Blaire sock puppets have queued up to deliver there condemnation of Corbyn, but not one of them has articulated a single solitary idea as to what would replace him.

Not exactly a surprise. Bliar is on record that he'd prefer labour to lose under a leftwing leadership.

On the subject of the reshuffle though, [url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/06/winning-ugly-the-art-of-jeremy-corbyns-shambolic-shuffle ]a lot of people have missed the point I think[/url].

[quote=Pigface ]As Call me Dave is giving a free vote on Europe won't that stop the worst of the infighting?

I doubt it as it is evidence of the split. Only last year he was saying he would not do this and he had said all along he was not even considering this. Due to the divisions within the party he had no choice but to do this as there was going to be mass resignations[ from the cabinet] if he did not do this [ from the no camp].

Nothing divides the tories like Europe its their explosive achilles heel

How much and how deep the scarring of this battle will run remains to be seen but the Tories views are so polarised on Europe its hard to see they are the same party . Many are much closer to UKIP than Ken CLarke, or the PM's view.

Nothing divides the tories like Europe its their explosive achilles heel

the problem there is that all disagreement is utterly neutralised by the outcome of the referendum. It doesn't matter which outcome any Tory MP campaign for, because the outcome is democratic, so the losing side has to accept it without ill feeling.

Since 1979, we've seen how Thatcherism/Reaganomics have changed the world. The rich have become far richer, while a bottom up approach to taxes and driving market forces has simply resulted in a stagnation of income for the poorest.

Meanwhile, three successive governments have tied house prices to the perceived success of an economy (note that house prices aren't included in official inflation measures) and we're in the situation whereby there's apparently not enough money for public services, yet there's (globally) an estimated £2tn going untaxed.

It has to change, perhaps it's the circles I move in but there seems to be an appetite amongst the general public for a shift to the left. I've gone from being a sworn non-Labour voter in the aftermath of the Blair years to a Labour Party member under Corbyn.

ninfan
the problem there is that all disagreement is utterly neutralised by the outcome of the referendum. It doesn't matter which outcome any Tory MP campaign for, because the outcome is democratic, so the losing side has to accept it without ill feeling.

I can sense it already

#EUref2 🙂

The EU referendum is absurd (unless there is some hidden plan conjured up among the Brussels elite and this is simply a test case). How can you vote on something that doesn't exist. A future Europe HAS to be very different from the current one. Without knowing what the future one is going to be, how can you vote? Bugger all point in voting on the current, unsustainable system IMO.

Corbyn is a disaster for the Labour party and is going drive the party into opposition for many years. Regardless of what may be said, the UK population is not going to vote in a hard left wing party, and that is where Corbyn is trying to take Labour.

His main problem is that he has always been on the fringe of the party and has basically ignored the PLP. Now that he is leading it, the PLP is responding in kind. Vast swathes of the PLP have no loyalty to him and were voted in on a manifesto which has not relationship with the way that Corbyn wants to go. As an example the party voted in the last conference to support the renewal of Trident (that is the Labour party). Technically is against his own party! Madness.

What will happen is that large numbers of the PLP will be deselected, will form their own party (the SDP?) and split the left of centre vote even further. While Blair seems to have become to most hated person in the UK, he did get Labour into power for three terms (although John Major et al made the first one very easy). Before Blair there was no chance, remember Kinnock and Foot!

And the bit that really pisses me off about Corbyn, now is a time to attack the Tories, to hold up their policies and to show what shambles they are on Europe. With a majority of 12, it should be possible to stop any significant right wing policy changes. Instead the internal bickering will allow Dave and George to drive any policies they want.

And then Momentum complain that the press (including the BBC) seem to be having a go at Corbyn. Heck, it is such an easy target, it is too hard for them not to. And it is just too depressing ...........

so the losing side has to accept it without ill feeling.

FFS there was ill feeling from the winning side never mind the losing side

Be serious for a minute the only issue is how deep the cuts and damage will go not if there will be any.
Group cohesion is always going to be lessened when you are openly arguing with each other and campaigning and briefing aginst one another.

A future Europe HAS to be very different from the current one. Without knowing what the future one is going to be, how can you vote? Bugger all point in voting on the current, unsustainable system IMO.

But we have a vote on Scottish Independent with no idea of what the future would be, so what be any different!

So we agree that the Book of Dreams was just that !! 😉

Without knowing what the future one is going to be, how can you vote?

The argument, which is basically we cannot predict the future- is equally true for both positions rather than just the one that matches your view.

Nothing divides the tories like Europe

- there is already division in the party and eg Kate Hoey is lining up with OUT already

- Labour is far better at ripping itself apart than the tories are

And the bit that really pisses me off about Corbyn, now is a time to attack the Tories, to hold up their policies and to show what shambles they are on Europe. With a majority of 12, it should be possible to stop any significant right wing policy changes. Instead the internal bickering will allow Dave and George to drive any policies they want.

STW Blaming The Victim alert !! Don't you think that Corbyn would infinitely prefer to be presenting his ideas for the economy, rather than responding to the endless back-stabbing from Blairites and their pals in the press?

What will happen is that large numbers of the PLP will be deselected, will form their own party (the SDP?)

No it won't. I think this is the fundamental problem in Labour today - the two parties seem intent on splitting apart but both want to retain the Labour 'name' because most of their voters tick 'Labour' on the voting slip, rather than in-depth knowledge of the actual MP themselves. The 'other Labour' party will be political suicide.

think you are underestimating the potential for the EU referendum to be a shitshow for Labour

LIkely to be cross party campaigns for either vote option the ony question is which lot will be bitter afterwards

IMHO those hate the EU really hate the EU and there are more of that demographic on the upper , and all parts, of the tory party than in labour

Its true labour will not be unscathed by it though.

And the bit that really pisses me off about Corbyn, now is a time to attack the Tories, to hold up their policies and to show what shambles they are on Europe.

That's almost as wrong-headed as the view that Corbyn is being a dictator for removing some of his most active critics from the shadow cabinet. I remember the collegiate big-tent approach of Blair and Brown. The labour party back then was a shining example of open minded free thinking debate 😀

there is already division in the party and eg Kate Hoey is lining up with OUT already

Corbyn is pretty anti-EU, he agreed to stick to party policy to stay in but how long will that last.

JC is in the wrong party IMO. Voting had shown people like some of his ideology but now he's being bogged down by other stuff....he should go elsewhere and least he could do what he wants to with a bunch of similar minded politicians, and see what the public say...maybe he'd succeed, maybe he wouldn't. Least he'd know he tried....Labours not the party for left wing minds anymore....

That's almost as wrong-headed as the view that Corbyn is being a dictator for removing some of his most active critics from the shadow cabinet

Wasn't Jezza a prolific rebel himself? Lucky for him that his predecessors didn't take the same approach that he has eh?
Some might say that they were more open minded and tolerant.....

Ken says our membership of NATO needs to be reviewed after he was parachuted in as the co chair of the labour defence review. Corbyn then sacks the defence spokeswoman with I guess someone more in line with his and Kens view on defence. Oh I was right....

'Mr Jones quit his defence spokesman role over the issue of Trident after Mr Corbyn replaced pro-nuclear weapons MP Maria Eagle with Emily Thornberry, who favours unilateral nuclear disarmament.'

Labour democracy in action

HOld on a minute are you telling me the leader of a political party who stood on a certain platform has put people who share this view in positions to argue the case for the party

This does indeed sound dangerously undemocratic to me and so unlike every other political leader ever.

If you must moan about Corbyn at least pick somethign that differentiates him from everyone else.

Junkyard - lazarus
If you must moan about Corbyn at least pick somethign that differentiates him from everyone else.

Me! Me! Me! (like very eager school kid putting hand up)

As usual I have said JC is not Jesus Christ but his supporters keep portraying him as the returning savior but deep down he is [b]J[/b]ust [b]C[/b]ommunist! 😆

I like Junkyard me coz he is very funny like TJ ... are you TJ coz I am sensing something is ... 😛

PB, it's a good job that the level of geopolitical risk is so low at the moment. Imagine all this nonsense in a world of heightened tension. That would make all the shenanigans seems almost irresponsible, which really wouldn't do at all.

(Busy digging bomb shelter)

HOld on a minute are you telling me the leader of a political party who stood on a certain platform has put people who share this view in positions to argue the case [u]for the party[/u]

Which are they supposed to be arguing the case for? The leader (and the platform he stood on) or the party (and the formally ratified policies it has adopted)?

Hang on, hang on you mean because you support the published and agreed labour policy on defence you can in fact be sacked for not following the leaders views that are not in fact the policy of his party?

Ken isn't an MP so its interesting he's been sent on the media rounds. Can Corbyn find no MPs willing to back him on TV or radio?

Yes the leader can appoint the folk around them who share their view and then try to influence party policy from this platform

Why is this surprising you both?
Why do you think is something special about Corbyn?

What aspect of him doing what all leaders do will you get outraged about next?

@ ninfan I would expect to argue the position I believed in and if it did not match the leaders I would expect to get the sack[ whatever party i was in]

you?

Hang on, hang on you mean because you support the published and agreed labour policy on defence you can in fact be sacked for not following the leaders views that are not in fact the policy of his party?

Has that happened? To whom?

would expect to argue the position I believed in and if it did not match the leaders I would expect to get the sack[ whatever party i was in]

[i]"I want open debate, I will listen to everyone, I firmly believe leadership is listening."
"I am not imposing leadership lines. I don't believe anyone has a monopoly on wisdom - we all have ideas and a vision of how things can be better"[/i]

Corbyn won't make it to the EU referendum, he'll be long gone even if the referendum is this autumn

#Jambyfact

or accurately quoted

I am not leader who wants to impose leadership lines all the time.

I don’t believe anyone of us has a monopoly on wisdom and ideas - we all have ideas and a vision of how things can be better.

I want open debate in our party and our movement.

I will listen to everyone.

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/130135691169/speech-by-jeremy-corbyn-to-labour-party-annual

I actually asked what you think would happen. DO you think a person can openly oppose the leader and remain in position in any party. Is it just Corbyn who gets rid of these types? Its not is it and the attack is just tories going i dont like him.

I will listen to everyone.

Sorry junky, couldn't help myself! 😀

no problem with it as it is what he has done and it is is just politics/leadership. To get shocked that a politician has behaved like a politician is pointless
to do it only about the other side is even more pointless

he confusion began on Sunday when Mr Cameron was asked if he has “absolutely closed your mind to allowing ministers a free vote”.
He said: “I’ve been very clear. If you want to be part of the government, you have to take the view that we are engaged in an exercise of renegotiation, to have a referendum and that will lead to a successful outcome.”
When asked if anyone “in Government who opposes that will have to resign”, the Prime Minister said: “Everyone in Government has signed up to the programme set out in the Conservative manifesto.”
Downing Street sources later confirmed that Mr Cameron was “very clear” that he would expect any minister who plans to campaign for Britain to leave the EU to resign.

this week he announced they coudl openly campaign against them

Its just politics

I would argue daves is worse [ well I would wouldn't I] as it has undermined his leadership
Corbyn clearly has loyalty issues with a PLP who are at best indifferent and usually openly hostile.
Everything else is us just playing political point scoring.

Corbyn hasn't sacked people for disagreeing on policy. (yes Eagle git moved) he sacked people for questioning his leadership and the party's direction. Benn disagreed over policy still in job.

DrJ

Mr Corbyn replaced pro-nuclear weapons MP Maria Eagle with Emily Thornberry, who favours unilateral nuclear disarmament.

The stated labour policy on Trident is? And after appointing Ken, a non MP to be co chair of the defence committee review. Who has expanded the role to include our possible withdrawal from NATO.

Sacking yes if you don't support the party line but this isn't

Moved, sacked.....

The issue is one of credibility for the whole party. Do we vote for their published policies or what the leader says and non elected members?

DrJ

Mr Corbyn replaced pro-nuclear weapons MP Maria Eagle with Emily Thornberry, who favours unilateral nuclear disarmament.

Correct, but you have no evidence that that was WHY she was replaced. I suspect that it had more to do with her public siding with General Whotsit about his statement about Corbyn being dangerous if elected. At that point it was clear she had to go.

Do we vote for their published policies or what the leader says and non elected members?

We vote for their published policies of course. Is there an election? Are we voting? Did I miss something?

Clearly Coryn is trying to change labour party policy and as he has just been elected as leader on a platform that included this policy on trident its not unreasonable to argue he has a mandate for it. Its pretty hard to argue that a leader trying to change party policy is somehow undemocratic. Every labour leader has done it be it clause 4 or union block voting. Its what leaders try to do.

All this is is tory using whatever he does as a method to beat him JHad they stayed in position no one would be condemning him for having an open party they would be claiming he has weak leadership. Its getting really boring having to constantly counter tories just using whatever happens as a means to moan about Corbyn he is just doing what all leaders of political parties do.

As for ken he is the co chair with the shadow defence minister being in charge.

Jeremy Corbyn has risked causing further splits in the Labour party by appointing Ken Livingstone as co-chair of the party's policy review on Trident.

The former Mayor of London is a strong opponent of renewing Britain's nuclear deterrent and shadow defence secretary Maria Eagle, who is in charge of Labour's defence review, was said to be "furious" at the decision after hearing about it on Twitter.

His appointment is part of Mr Corbyn's determination to push through an anti-Trident policy as the party’s official stance in time for when MPs are asked to vote on the renewal of Britain's fleet of four Trident ballistic missile submarines next summer.

Don't you think that Corbyn would infinitely prefer to be presenting his ideas for the economy, rather than responding to the endless back-stabbing from Blairites and their pals in the press?

This.

If the cry-baby entitled Blairites could just shut up for a few moments, or alternatively join the party they like trying to out do, i.e. the Tories, then Labour would be much better off. 60-odd percent of their supporters voted for a significant change in direction. If you count Burham's votes too then that's well over 3/4 of the people who voted in the leadership election wanting policy considerably to the left of NuLab. It's about time they listened.