[Closed] The labour party

I thought this was the labour party you were hoping for?

Those nasty blairites out!
Momentum candidates on the front benches.
Stop the war backers to the fore.
A "new kind of politics"

What ever it is, it's the most horrific car crash of a spectacle.

All will agree with The Glorious Leader! There will be unity!

The labour party

Who?

You have to wonder how its got to this? From putting Corbyn forward as a 'tokenist' lefty in the leadership battle, he not only got elected, but has taken the party of a steep downward spiral.

Is this the way of the far left? So wrapped up in their ideology, they are completely unable to see the bigger picture?

The country made the right choice. I thought their 'we know best, voters don't know what's good for them' approach sealed their fate as far as I was concerned. I hope they crash and burn fast so they can rebuild because I can't see any other way forward at the moment.

Any published labour policy isn't worth the paper it's written on when the leader refuses to abide by the cabinets decision.

s this the way of the far left? So wrapped up in their ideology, they are completely unable to see the bigger picture

Yes, spot on

Dear leader?

Labour was mauled at the polls in Scotland because the SNP had more of a leftist platform. Labour have reaped the rewards of moving to the centre-right under Blair.

The only option Labour had in order to remain relevant was to shift to the left IMHO.

It's a reshuffle.
What did you expect?

Is this the way of the far left? So wrapped up in their ideology, they are completely unable to see the bigger picture

To be fair, when you look at the more right leaning Blaire opposition, they're just as bad. Its six of one, and half a dozen of the other. The Tories, the country, anything really seems secondary to them having a fight with each other. Good job theres nowt important to worry about eh?

Its all bit...

Indeed, binners.

This, from the Staggers, was a pretty good summary
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2015/10/labour-s-warring-factions-who-do-they-include-and-what-are-they-fighting

Is there any point to it any more? Should it just be put out of its misery?

There wasn't any point to it. Sadly the people made this happen are still strong and dominant in the parliamentary party, and they're doing their damndest to make sure it continues not having any point to it. This battle will play out for a while yet so patience is required I reckon.

It's exactly the same ideological battle all parties have.

Sadly, JC has plenty of form in promoting some of the nonsense that I would have hoped the old school left had ditched by now.
Being a leftie doesn't mean accepting the whole package.
I wanted a proper debate.
We're not going to get one.
Independent thought is to be discouraged.

Gutted does not describe it.

Corbyn isn’t the cause of all of this; he’s simply a catalyst that’s bringing out something that’s been building up for years.

Under Blair’s reign, many, many new MPs were created who, obviously, had a Blair outlook and, largely, it didn't match the outlook of most members of the party. Now it is really starting to show.

Labour need to deal with this, regardless of what happens with Corbyn. Personally, I’d like to see the party split and each component be more focussed. I can see a situation where the same happens to the Conservatives, too, around Europe. This *might* finally lead to proper electoral reform…

Rachel

I forget who it was, but someone on Radio 4 made a very good point this morning - it's our screwed up FPTP electoral system system that leads to all this. It'd be much better if the Labour party split into say the Socialists and the Social Democrats - and for that matter the Tories could split into a soft pro-Europe right-wing party and a hard right party.

But under our system, that can't happen because either party then has no chance of winning anything. So parties have to stay together, and waste loads of time on infighting.

Meanwhile, the state of the Labour party is best summed up like this:

we don't have an opposition at the moment which is unhealthy regardless of your political leanings. The Labour party hasn't produced a credible candidate. Corbyn won't make the concessions necessary to be taken seriously.

amen ben. in effect parties should be mini referenda vehicles.

The conservatives aren't really any better - each party has a lightning rod issue that has the capacity to tear it apart. The labour party has several 🙂

Sure I just wrote that…

Rachel

It's just a reshuffle, it seems quite a few people I (and the majority of the public) am not aware of have been moved or resigned from front bench positions, in response to the PLP wanting a less rightwing labour party.
Corbs seems to have handled it badly, though, hopefully the dust will settle in time to watch torries whom the public have heard of do the same over Europe come the referendum if that ever happens...

[i]The conservatives aren't really any better - each party has a lightning rod issue that has the capacity to tear it apart.[/i]

Nah...apart from some misgivings about how we deal with the European issues, the Tories are pretty well together in the main.

Sure I just wrote that…

I didn't see your post, sorry, I was busy googling Simpson clips 😀

Independent thought is to be discouraged.

There's a huge difference between free-thinking/open debate and outright sustained, unthinking opposition. Since JC was elected leader his opponents in the PLP have done nothing but undermine, plot and attack him on all fronts, using (and manufacturing) every opportunity at their disposal. It's hardly a surprise that he's moved to put a lid on it. Of course now they'll trot out the 'hard left dictator' line, which has already been mentioned on this thread. Seems simple to me that the line is the point at which labour members spend more time and effort attacking the leadership than they do the tories. When that line is crossed, then action by the leadership is completely justified.

Is this the way of the far left? So wrapped up in their ideology, they are completely unable to see the bigger picture?

JC is the far left? Collectivism, gulags, that sort of thing?

Hyperbole aside, anyone who thinks that Corbyn is a useless dinosaur should consider just how useless the other candidates were, given the election result.

we don't have an opposition at the moment which is unhealthy regardless of your political leanings. The Labour party hasn't produced a credible candidate. Corbyn won't make the concessions necessary to be taken seriously.

On the contrary, Corbyn could well be toughening up from his "all inclusive" policy. The Syrian air strikes debate was a shambles, His opposition call it a revenge reshuffle, but he has simply learnt a lesson.

Which I might add still won't make him a proper leader.

Meanwhile, the tories who also don't have a proper leader, have "done a Labour" over Europe. Its going to get very messy.

Nah...apart from some misgivings about how we deal with the European issues, the Tories are pretty well together in the main.

😆

Didn't seem to be too much 'opposition' before corbyn came along. Utterly faceless bland politicians whose policies had nothing to differentiate from one another. Bollox to 'the middle ground', where was the opposition to privatising each and every industry we've ever once may have had..? 'Labour' died long ago thanks to Blair and his acolytes. At least corbyn has his principles. At least he is left wing. At least he won't cowtow to the Blairites who infest the parliamentary labour party.

And there is a lot of corbyns views I don't share. Trident, Europe etc.

It's just a reshuffle, it seems quite a few people I (and the majority of the public) am not aware of have been moved or resigned from front bench positions, in response to the PLP wanting a less rightwing labour party.

Not sure the PLP wants a less rightwing party. The bulk of the PLP is right wing, and anti-Corbyn. It's the general membership that may or may not want this - that's the only mandate Corbyn has.

I can see why Corbyn has done it - he wants some more control over policy, but the marvellous thing is how he can appear both petty and weak at the same time, by canning some small fry while backing away from Benn.

Can't see it getting any better - the PLP will just be looking for any opportunity to undermine him, regardless of the wishes of Labour Party members.

Not sure the PLP wants a less rightwing party. The bulk of the PLP is right wing, and anti-Corbyn. It's the general membership that may or may not want this - that's the only mandate Corbyn has.

This is the nub of the problem, he's one of handful on non Blairites in a party full of Blairites. The fact the bulk of the membership support Corbyn doesn't change who the MPs are (yet).

Labour was mauled at the polls in Scotland because the SNP had more of a leftist platform.

😀 No really!

Democracy requires and effective opposition and this is lacking now and getting worse. The only good thing (?) for Labour supporters is that the Tories will self-harm over Europe (esp as they feel less threatened by Labour). All a bloody mess.

And dear Nicola already winding up the independence rhetoric to distract attention from their record in power.

Politics as awful as it is enthralling!

The EU referendum may even fall below the Scottish independence referendum in terms of mis-information and deceit 🙁

Poor old Jezza was caught between the proverbial rock and hard place re Benn. But this use of twitter is an indication of how appalling the whole thing has become 🙁

It'd be much better if the Labour party split into say the Socialists and the Social Democrats

Well, it worked so well in 1981...

It's just a reshuffle

like you do with deckchairs, yeah?

Ref tories and Europe - for decades this was a hugely divisive issue within the party - however the referendum entirely removes the problem, whoever people campaign for, the public makes the final decision, and everyone agrees that whatever the public decides, is the settled outcome, therefore nobody loses out.

It's all well and good having a far/proper left party but it's rock all use if they don't get elected, no?
Otherwise all you have is a noisy opposition.

but it's rock all use if they don't get elected, no?

SShh!

As a non-socialist, I thought Corbyn would be a breath of fresh air in politics. A wake up call for all sides to start having principles, whichever end of the spectrum they are on.

To be getting rid of people for disagreeing with you, having voted against your own party over 500 times as a backbencher(iirc), makes him look either a hypocritical twit or a power crazed loon

he's one of handful on non Blairites in a party full of Blairites.

Makes you wonder if he's in the wrong party then?

On a similar note what I don't like about Corbyn and his lot is that he is happy to slag off Blair's legacy now, yet he benefited from it, by being part of Labour through those popular years.

Oh look another right whinge circle jerk.

He hasn't got rid of people for disagreeing with him, the people who have gone are the ones who questioned his leadership ability and the direction of the party. Hopefully they got rid of the 'source' who chats shit after every shadow cabinet meeting.

To be getting rid of people for disagreeing with you, having voted against your own party over 500 times as a backbencher(iirc), makes him look either a hypocritical twit or a power crazed loon

Hes not disappearing them though he's just sending them to the back benches where they can happily vote against the party line without corbs getting a rogering from the press.over splits in a s cabinet

Mistake not getting shot of Benn, then half the PLP still haven't got what's going on with their party actually being reclaimed by real folk who do believe Corbyn is a breath of fresh air. However if he isn't strong with these ass hats, he could very soon run out of favour.

This makes me laugh,

John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor and Jeremy Corbyn’s closest ally in the shadow cabinet, has said that three shadow ministers who resigned today were all from a “narrow rightwing clique”.

If that's the case why did Corbyn appoint them? After all Corbyn has been in the party since the 80's so unless he was sound asleep surely he knew what bent of politics they leaned too?

To appease the plp I'd have thought. Only now has he realised how wrong he was.

Mistake not getting shot of Benn

Corbyn's position is too weak to get rid of Benn, there would be open warfare within the party. Don't forget about Tom Watson in all of this, he holds a decent chunk of power, as he was voted by the party as deputy.

To be getting rid of people for disagreeing with you, having voted against your own party over 500 times as a backbencher(iirc), makes him look either a hypocritical twit or a power crazed loon

The reality is ever single leader surrounds themselves with people who share their vision and /or toe the line. Its nothing unusual from corbym its just another od for the haterz to beat him for doing what every single leader has done and will do.

Corbin really needs backing up by local labour branches deselecting rebellious MPs, otherwise he's in a no win situation.

deselecting rebellious MPs

So if an MP upholds official party policy on Trident (or another point of policy from the manifesto on which the public elected them a few months ago) in opposition to new party leader policy on Trident - should they be sacked or protected?

SO you are asking that if after failing to win a mandate at an election and then electing a new leader with new policies, that you are unable to support, should you remain that parties candidate in future elections?
Gosh this is a rather tricky one to work out.