[Closed] The Hospital C4 last night

Infuriating and depressing viewing all at the same time.

Yeah...watched that with the wife. Pretty wild! 😯

Kinda made me cringe with embarrasment thinking of some of the states i got in as a yoof!

My mate now works as a rentacop in A&E. Some of the abuse the medical professionals have to put up with is unreal.

I am not sure I have seen such a graphic and real representation of what goes on in A&E - I have admiration for anyone who can work in an environment like that.

The program Director could have angled the program down the lines of Daily Mail viewing. He/she didnt though, just viewed everything open and bare. The Doctors insight (and the editing) was fantastic. Her commenting that it wasnt really her place to pass judgement and reminded us of the ethics/code of being a Doctor yet the frustrations on the cyclic abuse that A&E suffer and will continue...well you get the point. It was refreshing- no agenda, just laid bare and the overdose of Ketamine was thankfully left in showing a mistake.

Brilliant telly. Watched it with my wife (a hospital registrar).

Great to see a reasonably fair documentary about hospital life, rather than the current fad for doctor bashing, unclean hospitals, neglect etc.

i know its a cliche, but they deserve a medal. if any proffession desreves a payrise its the nurses who have to deal with all the sh1t. great programme, but uncomforatble to watch.

Notice how there was no piece-to-camera, no annoying voice overs, no personalities in there? It was JUST about the people IN the hospital at that time. Refreshing.

I didn't see it - sounds like my mistake. i turned over to newsnight thinking i might learn something, they had made reconstructions of the girls home where the teenagers were routinely sedated - talk about trivialising the issue, they'd 'aged' the footage to make it look like it was shot in the 70's, ended up looking like a shit version of life on mars.

I love the idea of the bbc, and i love lots of programmes, but STOP WASTING MY MONEY on pointless graphics, drama reconstructions and sending reporters to stand outside nameless buildings, tell me the news, ask people who have a definite link to the event...

apologies for the blatant hijack

Whilst Charlie Booker's delivery is a bit shouty-student, I caught his newswipe last week on iplayer. Very well pitched, reflecting I hope the silent majority's frsutration with the path "news" is taking. Saw a bit of the Hospital on the hotel tellie last night. I kept thinking of comrade noteeth.

I watched in an absolute rage, that blond dr should be struck off... its not her job to moralise about how deserving people are of treatment, even if they are morons. If I gave similar views about some of the little horrors I teach taking up too much money in a hard pressed education system, I'd be sacked and rightly so, its not my job to decide whats right or wrong its my job to educate all to the best of my ability.

anagallis_arvensis: what are you on about? Were you watching the same show?

The entire point was that she [u]didn't[/u] "moralise about how deserving people are of treatment" - in fact she stated explicitly that her job as a doctor was just to treat people, that people had the basic right to put whatever substances they liked into their bodies and they should be treated equally at treatment.

I loved her subtle insight with her recollection of a young mum in a treatment cubicle just watching her toddler trash the toys in there without any reproach

GrahamS she was constantly making reference to costs and what this or that cost and how it was taking staff from other things, then she made some comment that I cant quote but it had me jumping up and down and swearing so much the dog started crying!! Then she gave some smug smirk and said but of course I'm not allowed to judge them, depsite having done just that. Smug cow had a face I could never get sick of kicking. There was some poor 18 year old girl who had been stabbed when pissed and was asked when was the last time she ate and she said the day before as she hadnt been food shopping. Now I thought Oh my god here's a poor 18 yearold girl, obviously alone in the world with no one looking out for her who has a eating disorder and needs some help. Smug bitch womean could only say how shocked she was that this person not be bothered to shop for food.

Excellent programme - worked in an A&E dept about 20-odd years ago (eek, I'm getting old!), Fri & Sat nights were bad then, but looks even worse now - sad reflection on the way society has gone in the UK.

When i watch programmes such as this, I'm always reminded me of my sister coming back from a Young Conservative meeting in the mid-1980's, where she'd just heard a well received speech saying that the best way to keep the general masses in check was to 'keep 'em pissed and keep 'em thick!' and wasn't it Mrs Thatcher who said there's no such thing as Society, just individuals?! Hmm... looks like we're now paying the price for this approach.

anagallis_arvensis, I would suggest that its almost impossible not to pass some opinion on people. Especially in an A&E dept such as that shown. The fact that people do work there is outstanding, Id ignor their opinions and let them get on with a job that most people would not do for double the money.

When you end up in A&E having fallen off your bike some may say you shouldnt be so stupid, but what will actually happen is some Dr will fix you up and let you go on your way. They will do this whatever opinion they hold.

trimix I'm sure they will and great I appreciate it. But that stupid women shouldnt be on the tv expressing opinions like she did and questioning who was more deserving of treatment, as I said if I did that about education I'd be scked and rightly so.

I think you should be sacked regardless. I mean if you can't understand a fairly straightforward TV programme without getting it that wrong how can you possibly be repsonsible for kids education?

Can't wait for next weeks. My Boss said the same production team also made one based on Holloway/prisons?

Ditto what hora said, and likewise regarding Holloway, both compelling viewing and whilst in no way anything other than a TV show, perhaps, just perhaps will make some folks wake up to some realities, so in that sense can only do good.

Maybe it is down to interpretation, but absolutely nothing she said came across to me as [i]"questioning who was more deserving of treatment"[/i].

The program was focussed on the increasing A&E admissions from alcohol related causes (80,000 additional admissions a year) and the resourcing strain that this causes.

(I interpreted) the opinions that she gave to relate to those extra strains on resources and how they might be reduced.

That is a general public health issue and is exactly the kind of things that doctors are encouraged to consider.

At no point did I see her suggest that any patient or group were any less deserving than "real" patients.

Smug bitch woman could only say how shocked she was that this person not be bothered to shop for food.

You saw "smug" - I saw someone dismayed and exasperated.

And regarding education:

If your job involves considering the general level of education in the country and you said something like [i]"The large number of children who arrive at primary school without ever seeing a book is a real drain on education resources"[/i] then that is quite, quite different from saying [i]"I don't want to teach the thick kids"[/i]

Hopefully you can see the difference and draw the comparison.

You saw "smug" - I saw someone dismayed and exasperated.

Regardless of our difference of opinion a trained medical professional should be able to see what was clearly a young girl with problems getting no support from anyone. She looked very underwieght to me. Saying whatever she said which was something like "can you believe she cant be bothered to shop for food" shows an almost negligent lack of insight into a real medical problem.

I think you should be sacked regardless. I mean if you can't understand a fairly straightforward TV programme without getting it that wrong how can you possibly be repsonsible for kids education?

I think I fully understood where that programme was coming from and the doctor interviewed fully understood it too. Having worked in state I am more aware than most about the realities of teenagers from socially disadvantaged backgrounds and how well just plain stupid their families can be and how much of a drain on money that could be spent on "nicer" they are but thats what I signed up for in state education and its what that dr signed up for in state healthcare. I cant be bothered to look back at some of the things she said but I thought they were highly dubious. I dont expect some of the more right leaning members of this forum to agree with me but hey thats life.

"The large number of children who arrive at primary school without ever seeing a book is what really highlights the need for a high quality state education system that can help break the cycle of educational underachievement"

a trained medical professional should be able to see what was clearly a young girl with problems getting no support from anyone. She looked very underwieght to me.

Why do you think she was asking when the girls last meal was? Clue: She wasn't just making smalltalk - she was trying to discover if there was a medical cause.

From memory she rhetorically asked the camera, in a rather despairing voice, how such a young girl gets to the point where she can't be bothered to eat and what we as a society should do about it.

She was clearly aware that the girls welfare problems went beyond the immediate A&E issue of being stabbed - but what could she do about it?

"The large number of children who arrive at primary school without ever seeing a book is what really highlights the need for a high quality state education system that can help break the cycle of educational underachievement"

Nice, so how is that different to what she said about seeing a huge number of cases involving drink and drugs and the only way to break the cycle would be to completely change society? (Which she admitted herself she had no idea how to do).

I cant be bothered to look back at some of the things she said but I thought they were highly dubious. I dont expect some of the more right leaning members of this forum to agree with me but hey thats life.

Since when has supporting the NHS and wanting healthcare for all been a right-wing ideology?

Anyway I'll give you a couple of direct quotes from her (Naomi Cuthbert - the A&E Consultant) to get your lefty liberal lentils boiling:

"If you took alcohol out of the equation, 50 per cent of our staff wouldn't be necessary."

"[The NHS has become] a bucket and mop [for a] sub-set of society that is completely dysfunctional."

*Reality is, some patients are more deserving of compassion than others... Some people visit tragedy upon themselves and some people have it visited upon them."

STOP ARGUING! You lot are driving me to drink!!! 😆 🙄

I think I fully understood where that programme was coming from

Reality is, some patients are more deserving of compassion than others... Some people visit tragedy upon themselves and some people have it visited upon them."

That was it, makes my fepping blood boil, how dare she moralise, I could cope with you lot saying that, I could cope with an MP saying that but a Dr FFS... grr, I'm all angry agian now 👿

Oh give over you big ninny!
Every Doctor I know and work with, and every nurse I've ever met and worked with 'moralises' in exactly the same way.
What makes us good or 'angels' or 'professional' or whatever you want to call it is that regardless of what we think, we try to do the best we can.

I agree with aa.

i don't think the program was as balanced as it initially appeared to be. I think it had a subtle but definite Daily Mail tone to it.

When the blond Dr said "its not my place to judge" she clearly was judging. She also kept making comments about 'society', as if the drunk chavs coming in after a night out represented the entire country.

Having said that, its obviously an incredibly difficult job. Theres no way i could do it for any amount of money.

I did wonder if all the tax on alcohol covers the medical bills too??

I'd be entirely surprised if she didn't say that.

From experience I think that most frontline doctors and nurses would say something similar, or at least have some sympathy with her point. Perhaps not all would be brave enough to do so publicly though.

[size=1]Edit: ahh crikey beat me to that point. Oh well it's not just me at least[/size] 🙂

[i]Why do you think she was asking when the girls last meal was? [/i]

Everyone gets asked that or should.

Didn't watch it as never do watch them as drive me a touch mad, sounds like this one may have been the exception so might try to catch it on More 4. Does look as AA completely missed the point though.

I started watching it,but it made me so angry I turned over!!.I wouldn't treat anyone who was well enough to shout and scream abuse.Throw them in a drunk tank untill the've soberd up and learned a bit of respect.

Didn't watch it as never do watch them as drive me a touch mad, sounds like this one may have been the exception...

Yep, I deliberately switched it off as such documentaries are typically focussed on doctor bashing and tend to make the missus seethe. But we switched it back on after a doctor mate texted to say it was worth watching. Should be available on 4OD.

well if I did miss the point at least one other person did too.

Every teacher I've ever met moralises as well...

I dont doubt that but would they go on TV and spout such shite?

I started watching it,but it made me so angry I turned over!!.I wouldn't treat anyone who was well enough to shout and scream abuse.Throw them in a drunk tank untill the've soberd up and learned a bit of respect.

Now that aspect I whole heartedly agree with.

How exactly is it shite though? It is a statement of how she feels. And it is a feeling that is probably shared by the majority of health care workers.

Should we just ignore it?

Do you honestly expect them to feel the same amount of compassion for every patient??? I don't think Gandhi himself would manage that.

Isn't a large part of the problem the way drunks are dealt with now? Drunkism is nothing new, 'Gin Alley' is not a 21st centuary invention, the UK has always had an issue with excess drinking. What has changed though is that many 'normal' drunks are now being carted off to A&E by the police to have a drip put in and a stomach pump rather than a night in the cells for D&D or being dropped off at home. This is one of the reasons drink-related admissions are more common, the manner in which the police deal with them. Get rid of the problem, pass it onto someone elses budget and pop around to take any statements when the dust has settled. I'm not excusing these idiots who drink to excess of course, just pointing out its not such a simple issue which can be easily explained by some rant-friendly TV.

I started watching it,but it made me so angry I turned over!!.I wouldn't treat anyone who was well enough to shout and scream abuse.Throw them in a drunk tank untill the've soberd up and learned a bit of respect.

Now that aspect I whole heartedly agree with.

WTF?! That's worse!

So you think it despicable that doctors could possibly fail to feel compassion?

But you would be quite happy for them to endanger a patient's health by withholding treatment if they are drunk and abusive?!?

And you suggested that I was right-wing??!?

I applaude the Dr's honesty and openess. Whatever any of the panic merchants in this country may say, we are still a Democracy and as such should all have freedom to express ourselves openly. Even if our opinion is different from the majority or for that matter the minority.

I watched this with my wife and found the programme very compelling, funnily enough I laughingly said to my wife, now lets wait for the Politically Correct Brigade to criminalise the Dr for being honest....

She was making valid observations, not judgements. A bit like we all do on here every now and then 😆

Sooty& Jim, William Hogarth springs to mind 🙂

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As an A&E registrar it sounds like I should try and catch this on More4. I'll let you know my thoughts when I've seen it, but thanks to everyone has said they appreciate our efforts in hospitals. We try.....

It's available on 4oD at http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-hospital/catch-up

WTF?! That's worse!

So you think it despicable that doctors could possibly fail to feel compassion?

But you would be quite happy for them to endanger a patient's health by withholding treatment if they are drunk and abusive?!?

And you suggested that I was right-wing??!?

dont mind people being drunk and a bit of swearing but if people cn be threatening they should not be treated, everyone has the right to work free from abuse IMO

dr_death, the vast majority of the populace would say the same. The rest weren't brought up with any family discipline or core values. They believe you owe them [i]service[/i] when they put little or nothing into society.

dont mind people being drunk and a bit of swearing but if people cn be threatening they should not be treated, everyone has the right to work free from abuse IMO

So how do you reconcile non-treatment of abusive patients with the view that doctors should always feel compassion for patients?

Are they supposed to not treat them, but feel really bad about it?

Mercifully what tends to happen is the exact opposite of this: doctors may feel very little in the way of genuine compassion for a patient who swears, spits and lashes out at staff - but usually they will attempt to treat them anyway.

My wife has had to go into a room, alone, and talk down a patient who had just trashed the place and armed themselves with a pair of scissors.
It's not unusual for patients to lash out or try to punch her as she does her job. Verbal abuse and threats are pretty much par for the course.

In almost all cases, these patients are still treated.

THAT is real compassion.

So how do you reconcile non-treatment of abusive patients with the view that doctors should always feel compassion for patients?

Easy if they were that ill they wouldnt be abusive. Good on your wife for doing what she did but I'd be sending in a police dog. Guess she's a better person than me.

Easy if they were that ill they wouldnt be abusive.

Sadly it's just not that simple. Not every seriously ill patient lies in bed moaning quietly. Sometimes physical illnesses can cause rational normal people to become confused, paranoid, delusional, violent and generally a bit mental.

Even a very simple thing like low blood sugar can look like drunkenness.

Likewise, someone may be steaming drunk/off their tits and shouting the place down, but that doesn't mean that there isn't something seriously wrong with them.

I'd be sending in a police dog.

I suggested that they should have a tranquilliser gun like vets use when treating lions.

[b]Easy if they were that ill they wouldnt be abusive[/b]

Ill people can be violent as a direct result of their illness, and the mental states people get into when ill make them behave very very differently to their normal state.
I see this at work all the time, and have seen my dad behave in exactly the same way, not even able to recognise me, and attempting to hit me as a result.
You have an immature and unrealistic view of illness and behaviour.

immature... cool havent been called that for years

I was sympathising with a_a for a bit there because my wife had similar, if not as strong views on the doctor in question. She also felt that to some small degree that the doctor had a bit of a smirk on when it came to the state some people managed to get themselves in but she did agree that it's probably hard not to become slightly cynical after 20 years in the job. We almost had an argument over that point but once she started cleaning her nails with a 12 inch kitchen knife I conceeded.

However, while I'm sure we both agreed that abusive patients should be turfed out to fend for themselves, we both drew the line at settings dogs on them.

Go to your room.
And you ARE coming to Grandmas on Saturday, and you're not going out dressed like that. 😀

Yep, she definitely had a smirk.

The wry, knowing smile of someone who has been doing this a while and knows that naive (and slightly twisted) ideals like a_a has are just not the way it actually works.

..abusive patients should be turfed out to fend for themselves

I think we covered above why that doesn't generally happen, but aside from the moral, ethical and professional concerns, how long do you think it would be before some scrote got himself thrown out of A&E for threatening staff and then promptly died?

The red tops would be all over it. "HOSPITAL OF HATE". Pictures of his crying mum: [i]"Why did NHS bullies refuse to treat my Barry?"[/i], "Doctors playing God", etc etc.

No mention would be made of [i]why[/i] he was turfed out. Or they'd twist it to suggest it was about class or colour. Or lack of beds. Or ****in MRSA.

Basically they could say anything they liked because, as usual in these stories, the hospital would be unable to defend itself publicly due to patient confidentiality.

And you ARE coming to Grandmas on Saturday, and you're not going out dressed like that.

I AM NOT WEARING THAT POLO NECK MY AUNTIE KNITED THOUGH!!!!

However, while I'm sure we both agreed that abusive patients should be turfed out to fend for themselves, we both drew the line at settings dogs on them.

OMG I WAS LIKE JOKING, WATEVER MAN

Serious question then to the people who thought she wa OK/hero. Why was she the only one doing pieces to camera? The asian guy didnt and I'm sure there are other Drs working at Selly Oak A&E

OMG I WAS LIKE JOKING, WATEVER MAN

We're not angry. We're just disappointed.
Now go to your room and think about what you've done.

Serious question then to the people who thought she wa OK/hero. Why was she the only one doing pieces to camera? The asian guy didnt and I'm sure there are other Drs working at Selly Oak A&E

They did have a couple of other voices pop-up at various points. And some less formal bits to camera, like during the overdose.

I found it more compelling with a constant "spokesperson".
She is the A&E Consultant, so effectively it's her A&E*.

[size=1]* there are no doubt other A&E Consultants there, but realistically how many of them should the hospital be prepared to spare as a publicity exercise?[/size]

Fair enough but I interpreted it as she was the only one who said what they wanted or the only one prepared to go on TV saying such things.
I thought it was ashtonishingly bad publicity for the hospital even if just for it showing them overdosing someone.

I suppose we will have to agree to differ on all this

She may well have been the only one that felt confident enough to speak out. The junior doctors may not have felt they could be so candid. Who knows?

As for the overdose, I was amazed they showed it too. But it spoke volumes for the honesty of the programme.
These things happen and it is much part of the reality in hospitals as the abusive patients.

worse things happen at sea.

Bloody ell, will you lot be arguing when the new episode is on soon? 🙄

My wife is a hospital doctor and over the last few years we have chatted about her job. She thinks that 60% of the people she deals with are the dregs of society, and 40% of people are 'normal', and that on a weekend the majority of A&E admissions are alcohol or drug related.

She says that many people do not say please or thank you, and are just dam right rude and aggressive. I've asked her well why do you not just let the drunks/druggies suffer a little more to teach them a lesson and she says she would never dream of it as she is a doctor and their to treat everyone regardless, and I genuinely believe that is how she approaches her work.

However, she does get fed up of dealing with the same drunks/druggies dregs of society day in day out and it is getting worse.

anagallis_arvensis - I sort of know where your coming from, but if we all tow the PC line as you appear to it will not resolve some of the fundamental problems with society today, which will affect teachers and dr's alike. If there is a growing section of Society that have kids that can not read and write, which then turn in to young adults that have no sense of personal responsibility, education, skills in turn they then become and ever increasing burden on the state, there are only so many people who can sponge off the state before it become unsustainable.

So good on the lady for saying what she did, ok she didn’t quite say it as eloquently as she could, but having spoken to my wife and a large number of her work colleagues, everything she was saying was very true.

I think the (walking wounded) normal people who come into A&E try and avoid the busy times. I remember slicing through a nerve in a finger once and I waited until 7am Sunday morning before going in!

[i]I kept thinking of comrade noteeth[/i]

Comrade noteeth has been away for a few days, but saw the repeat. Excellent programme - as hardhitting as it was moving.

A+E Doc was simply telling it like it is.

Next episode is on tonight I believe. Focussing on teenage pregnancies this time.

For a brief moment my heart-skipped and I thought I had missed it

Tonight (Tuesday 14 April) at 9pm:

This episode explores the cost of teenage mothers to an already stretched health service. With 46,000 pregnant teens registered in the UK last year - the highest number in Europe - and many young people failing to take responsibility for their own health, can the NHS afford to maintain its founding principle of free healthcare at the point of delivery?

Part of a three-part series examining the relationship between teenagers and the NHS, this programme visits City Hospital in Birmingham where 10 new pregnant teenage girls register at the maternity unit each week. Is the NHS being asked to pick up the pieces of an increasingly self-destructive society?

-- http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-hospital

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I don't know whether thats me or that beached obnoxious-girl who doesnt want an injection cos her mates told her not to.

Yeah, but she's "needlephobic" (though seems to somehow have managed quite a few piercings).

can the NHS afford to maintain its founding principle of free healthcare at the point of delivery?

Oh do **** off!!! Glad I managed to miss it whilst taking my delinquent lurcher to puppy training.

eh?

Are you saying "do **** off, of course it can the NHS is absolutely minted"??

Another fantastic slice of life at the coal-face. Managed to catch the first episode on 4OD and it seemed to reflect life in A&E on a Friday night fairly accurately, lots of hammered people staggering about being abusive to the staff and other patients, whose only illness was having consumed their own bodyweight in alcopops. These people take away resources (staff, time and equipment) that could be better used helping the genuinely unwell.

It is sometimes difficult to feel compassion for people who get themselves into a state were they are unable to look after themselves and then get abusive toward the people who are trying to look after them. Just because it is difficult to find compassion doesn't mean that you don't treat them, it's just something that you get on with and then move on.

Tonights episode was outside my field of expertise but we see some of the same characters turning up at A&E in a similar state to those in the first episode only this time 28 weeks pregnant as well. To be honest it's quite sad and depressing to see, but I'm not sure what the answer is....

Are you saying "do **** off, of course it can the NHS is absolutely minted"??

No what I'm saying is that we have an NHS, we have a welfare system; these if they are in place they will be abused by a minority, fact, end of story. Now obviously we want to minimise this abuse of the system, but the abuse of the NHS system wont be helped by looking at what the NHS does. This section of society can only be minimised through long term efort in education and job creation, and its a thankless task because they think they dont need help. The other options of course is to change the welfare system and the NHS, I dont agree with that. Of course there are other ways of getting rid of sections of society but those arent sensible either. This is all obviously my opinion and I couldnt care less if others dont agree.

"we have a welfare system; these if they are in place they will be abused by a minority, fact, end of story."

Anagallis - but thats the point though, your minority are not the minority they are the ever increasing greatest users of the NHS. Dr's are just expressing their concerns that its a certain type of person who is increasingly coming through their doors and it is not sustainable.

That maybe true but the problem doesnt lie and therefore cannot be solved by looking at the NHS unless we want to change one of the things that I think the UK can be most proud of.