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It's available on 4oD at http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-hospital/catch-up
WTF?! That's worse!So you think it despicable that doctors could possibly fail to feel compassion?
But you would be quite happy for them to endanger a patient's health by withholding treatment if they are drunk and abusive?!?
And you suggested that I was right-wing??!?
dont mind people being drunk and a bit of swearing but if people cn be threatening they should not be treated, everyone has the right to work free from abuse IMO
dr_death, the vast majority of the populace would say the same. The rest weren't brought up with any family discipline or core values. They believe you owe them [i]service[/i] when they put little or nothing into society.
dont mind people being drunk and a bit of swearing but if people cn be threatening they should not be treated, everyone has the right to work free from abuse IMO
So how do you reconcile non-treatment of abusive patients with the view that doctors should always feel compassion for patients?
Are they supposed to not treat them, but feel really bad about it?
Mercifully what tends to happen is the exact opposite of this: doctors may feel very little in the way of genuine compassion for a patient who swears, spits and lashes out at staff - but usually they will attempt to treat them anyway.
My wife has had to go into a room, alone, and talk down a patient who had just trashed the place and armed themselves with a pair of scissors.
It's not unusual for patients to lash out or try to punch her as she does her job. Verbal abuse and threats are pretty much par for the course.
In almost all cases, these patients are still treated.
THAT is real compassion.
So how do you reconcile non-treatment of abusive patients with the view that doctors should always feel compassion for patients?
Easy if they were that ill they wouldnt be abusive. Good on your wife for doing what she did but I'd be sending in a police dog. Guess she's a better person than me.
Easy if they were that ill they wouldnt be abusive.
Sadly it's just not that simple. Not every seriously ill patient lies in bed moaning quietly. Sometimes physical illnesses can cause rational normal people to become confused, paranoid, delusional, violent and generally a bit mental.
Even a very simple thing like low blood sugar can look like drunkenness.
Likewise, someone may be steaming drunk/off their tits and shouting the place down, but that doesn't mean that there isn't something seriously wrong with them.
I'd be sending in a police dog.
I suggested that they should have a tranquilliser gun like vets use when treating lions.
[b]Easy if they were that ill they wouldnt be abusive[/b]
Ill people can be violent as a direct result of their illness, and the mental states people get into when ill make them behave very very differently to their normal state.
I see this at work all the time, and have seen my dad behave in exactly the same way, not even able to recognise me, and attempting to hit me as a result.
You have an immature and unrealistic view of illness and behaviour.
immature... cool havent been called that for years
I was sympathising with a_a for a bit there because my wife had similar, if not as strong views on the doctor in question. She also felt that to some small degree that the doctor had a bit of a smirk on when it came to the state some people managed to get themselves in but she did agree that it's probably hard not to become slightly cynical after 20 years in the job. We almost had an argument over that point but once she started cleaning her nails with a 12 inch kitchen knife I conceeded.
However, while I'm sure we both agreed that abusive patients should be turfed out to fend for themselves, we both drew the line at settings dogs on them.
Go to your room.
And you ARE coming to Grandmas on Saturday, and you're not going out dressed like that. 😀
Yep, she definitely had a smirk.
The wry, knowing smile of someone who has been doing this a while and knows that naive (and slightly twisted) ideals like a_a has are just not the way it actually works.
..abusive patients should be turfed out to fend for themselves
I think we covered above why that doesn't generally happen, but aside from the moral, ethical and professional concerns, how long do you think it would be before some scrote got himself thrown out of A&E for threatening staff and then promptly died?
The red tops would be all over it. "HOSPITAL OF HATE". Pictures of his crying mum: [i]"Why did NHS bullies refuse to treat my Barry?"[/i], "Doctors playing God", etc etc.
No mention would be made of [i]why[/i] he was turfed out. Or they'd twist it to suggest it was about class or colour. Or lack of beds. Or ****in MRSA.
Basically they could say anything they liked because, as usual in these stories, the hospital would be unable to defend itself publicly due to patient confidentiality.
And you ARE coming to Grandmas on Saturday, and you're not going out dressed like that.
I AM NOT WEARING THAT POLO NECK MY AUNTIE KNITED THOUGH!!!!
However, while I'm sure we both agreed that abusive patients should be turfed out to fend for themselves, we both drew the line at settings dogs on them.
OMG I WAS LIKE JOKING, WATEVER MAN
Serious question then to the people who thought she wa OK/hero. Why was she the only one doing pieces to camera? The asian guy didnt and I'm sure there are other Drs working at Selly Oak A&E
OMG I WAS LIKE JOKING, WATEVER MAN
We're not angry. We're just disappointed.
Now go to your room and think about what you've done.
Serious question then to the people who thought she wa OK/hero. Why was she the only one doing pieces to camera? The asian guy didnt and I'm sure there are other Drs working at Selly Oak A&E
They did have a couple of other voices pop-up at various points. And some less formal bits to camera, like during the overdose.
I found it more compelling with a constant "spokesperson".
She is the A&E Consultant, so effectively it's her A&E*.
[size=1]* there are no doubt other A&E Consultants there, but realistically how many of them should the hospital be prepared to spare as a publicity exercise?[/size]
Fair enough but I interpreted it as she was the only one who said what they wanted or the only one prepared to go on TV saying such things.
I thought it was ashtonishingly bad publicity for the hospital even if just for it showing them overdosing someone.
I suppose we will have to agree to differ on all this
She may well have been the only one that felt confident enough to speak out. The junior doctors may not have felt they could be so candid. Who knows?
As for the overdose, I was amazed they showed it too. But it spoke volumes for the honesty of the programme.
These things happen and it is much part of the reality in hospitals as the abusive patients.
worse things happen at sea.
Bloody ell, will you lot be arguing when the new episode is on soon? 🙄
My wife is a hospital doctor and over the last few years we have chatted about her job. She thinks that 60% of the people she deals with are the dregs of society, and 40% of people are 'normal', and that on a weekend the majority of A&E admissions are alcohol or drug related.
She says that many people do not say please or thank you, and are just dam right rude and aggressive. I've asked her well why do you not just let the drunks/druggies suffer a little more to teach them a lesson and she says she would never dream of it as she is a doctor and their to treat everyone regardless, and I genuinely believe that is how she approaches her work.
However, she does get fed up of dealing with the same drunks/druggies dregs of society day in day out and it is getting worse.
anagallis_arvensis - I sort of know where your coming from, but if we all tow the PC line as you appear to it will not resolve some of the fundamental problems with society today, which will affect teachers and dr's alike. If there is a growing section of Society that have kids that can not read and write, which then turn in to young adults that have no sense of personal responsibility, education, skills in turn they then become and ever increasing burden on the state, there are only so many people who can sponge off the state before it become unsustainable.
So good on the lady for saying what she did, ok she didn’t quite say it as eloquently as she could, but having spoken to my wife and a large number of her work colleagues, everything she was saying was very true.
I think the (walking wounded) normal people who come into A&E try and avoid the busy times. I remember slicing through a nerve in a finger once and I waited until 7am Sunday morning before going in!
[i]I kept thinking of comrade noteeth[/i]
Comrade noteeth has been away for a few days, but saw the repeat. Excellent programme - as hardhitting as it was moving.
A+E Doc was simply telling it like it is.
Next episode is on tonight I believe. Focussing on teenage pregnancies this time.
For a brief moment my heart-skipped and I thought I had missed it
Tonight (Tuesday 14 April) at 9pm:
This episode explores the cost of teenage mothers to an already stretched health service. With 46,000 pregnant teens registered in the UK last year - the highest number in Europe - and many young people failing to take responsibility for their own health, can the NHS afford to maintain its founding principle of free healthcare at the point of delivery?Part of a three-part series examining the relationship between teenagers and the NHS, this programme visits City Hospital in Birmingham where 10 new pregnant teenage girls register at the maternity unit each week. Is the NHS being asked to pick up the pieces of an increasingly self-destructive society?
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I don't know whether thats me or that beached obnoxious-girl who doesnt want an injection cos her mates told her not to.
Yeah, but she's "needlephobic" (though seems to somehow have managed quite a few piercings).
can the NHS afford to maintain its founding principle of free healthcare at the point of delivery?
Oh do **** off!!! Glad I managed to miss it whilst taking my delinquent lurcher to puppy training.
eh?
Are you saying "do **** off, of course it can the NHS is absolutely minted"??
Another fantastic slice of life at the coal-face. Managed to catch the first episode on 4OD and it seemed to reflect life in A&E on a Friday night fairly accurately, lots of hammered people staggering about being abusive to the staff and other patients, whose only illness was having consumed their own bodyweight in alcopops. These people take away resources (staff, time and equipment) that could be better used helping the genuinely unwell.
It is sometimes difficult to feel compassion for people who get themselves into a state were they are unable to look after themselves and then get abusive toward the people who are trying to look after them. Just because it is difficult to find compassion doesn't mean that you don't treat them, it's just something that you get on with and then move on.
Tonights episode was outside my field of expertise but we see some of the same characters turning up at A&E in a similar state to those in the first episode only this time 28 weeks pregnant as well. To be honest it's quite sad and depressing to see, but I'm not sure what the answer is....
Are you saying "do **** off, of course it can the NHS is absolutely minted"??
No what I'm saying is that we have an NHS, we have a welfare system; these if they are in place they will be abused by a minority, fact, end of story. Now obviously we want to minimise this abuse of the system, but the abuse of the NHS system wont be helped by looking at what the NHS does. This section of society can only be minimised through long term efort in education and job creation, and its a thankless task because they think they dont need help. The other options of course is to change the welfare system and the NHS, I dont agree with that. Of course there are other ways of getting rid of sections of society but those arent sensible either. This is all obviously my opinion and I couldnt care less if others dont agree.
"we have a welfare system; these if they are in place they will be abused by a minority, fact, end of story."
Anagallis - but thats the point though, your minority are not the minority they are the ever increasing greatest users of the NHS. Dr's are just expressing their concerns that its a certain type of person who is increasingly coming through their doors and it is not sustainable.
That maybe true but the problem doesnt lie and therefore cannot be solved by looking at the NHS unless we want to change one of the things that I think the UK can be most proud of.
I know the subject material didnt help but I didnt 'enjoy'(?) watching the Hospital last night. Enjoy is an emotive word and possibly not correct. Next week though, I can understand the subject its psychiatric NOT people who are [b]'greedy bastards'[/b]. Compulsive eating disorders are terrible.
No what I'm saying is that we have an NHS, we have a welfare system; these if they are in place they will be abused by a minority, fact, end of story. Now obviously we want to minimise this abuse of the system, but the abuse of the NHS system wont be helped by looking at what the NHS does.
I'm not sure that is what is being suggested.
The programme focuses on some of the headline-making strains the NHS is under and shows some of the reality behind those headlines.
I don't think it attempts to suggest solutions to this. In fact in both episodes so far the central doctors have said they don't know how to address it or what we do about it.
Seems to me that this is just the first step: getting people to recognise that it's not just "those whinging doctors" and that things genuinely can't continue as they are.
Once that is recognised then what we do to address it is up for debate, which is where your points about education, job creation and welfare reform come in.
I couldnt work in healthcare - I'd likely commit suicide within a year, too many depressingly ungrateful people, too many depressingly self-destructive people blocking help to those who aren't self destructive. Systems stretched to breaking point, staff the same - what a life. I'd need a ****ing high wage just to cover the cost of the holidays and lifestyle I'd need just to remain positive over it all.
[i]stretched to breaking point[/i]
How very dare you! I just sit at the nurses' station, getting fat on endless tins of Quality Street. Apparently. 😈
I just went to hospital to see my surgeon about my hip, not good news but thats not my point. My point is a big sign on the wall said "this NHS trust will not treat violent or abusive patients" or words to that effect. MAde me think of this thread.
sign on the wall said "this NHS trust will not treat violent or abusive patients"
Unfortunately, a lot of the time, it is just what it is... just a sign.
As you saw, the duty of care is incredibly strong, and the consequences of not caring are headlines for the Daily Wail.
I'm mainly pleased that this excellent programme is stimulating debate.
Free at the point of care becomes more unaffordable every year as people expect more and more. At least between this and other programmes we are getting more of an idea as to where the money goes.
Bad news Hora, I just watched the preview of next weeks show and they all seem to be fat giffers who eat far too much...
MrsGrahamS takes the diabetes clinics, so she has heard the "But all I eat is lettuce" line hundreds of times.
Looking forward to watching that episode with her.
One of my favourites was a fat lass telling an anaesthetist I was in with that all she ate was salad to which his reply was (muttered under his breath)
"What do you eat, ****ing trees?!"
Difficult to stiffle a giggle....