Enough with the conspiracy theories
You think the inequality in wealth between the top 1% and everyone else is a conpsiracy theory? 😳
I think you are very wrong about that
Why then in the early 2000s, when net immigration was higher than it had been in the previous 40 years and the tories were trying to weaponise it did people keep giving Tony Blair landslide majorities?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/283287/net-migration-figures-of-the-united-kingdom-y-on-y/
So... what do politicians not of the "Far Right" say about migration to stop voters turning to the Far Right...?
"They have it wrong, migration is not the problem, provision of services and maintaining skilled work is the answer" - doesn't work, is labelled as "not listening".
"They don't know how to reduce migration, we do, it's about investing in education and training" - doesn't work, as it's the clamour for "change now" that populism feeds on, not longer term processes.
"We'll control migration numbers, and also seek to improve the lives of everyone already here" - doesn't work, as despite claims to the contrary, it's not just about the numbers of new comers, it's about how people feel about those already in their country that they are being groomed to hate.
Seems that whatever politicians of the centre right, centre left, green, left... whatever they say... that call to stop/reduce/control migration will pull a sizeable proportion of voters ever rightwards.
"Listening" and talking tough on immigration risks validating the anti-immigrant rhetoric of the far right.
"Arguing" the alternative case for immigration risks being labelled out of touch elite, feeding populism.
Why then in the early 2000s, when net immigration was higher than it had been in the previous 40 years and the tories were trying to weaponise it did people keep giving Tony Blair landslide majorities?
The vote collapsed throughout that period though with 2005 being a great example of the failings of FPTP.
Whilst it wasnt a great tool it was used continually throughout his office and if you read the accounts from labour at the time they were certainly bothered about it and thought it was having an impact.
Its just the tories were so hopeless it didnt help. It is what helped ukip etc grow though.
So definitely damaging but a slowburner at the time.
Why then in the early 2000s, when net immigration was higher than it had been in the previous 40 years and the tories were trying to weaponise it did people keep giving Tony Blair landslide majorities?
Dunno. What did you read on your smart phone in the 2000s about it all? Perhaps the world has changed.
Many pointed at immigration decisions made by the Labour government back then as regards the new EU accession states as a key seed in the anti-EU movement that ultimate subsequently changed this country forever.
The left used to be about trying to make life better for the disadvantaged parts of society. Now it seems to spend moree time criticising people for microaggressions.
The left used to be working class, now it's been colonised by the middle class, who still have middle class values but like to cosplay as progressive.
... it's also happened to football and pop music.
Perhaps the world has changed.
Yes it has, people are poorer. That's what has fuelled the hate. Solve that problem and people who previously weren't bothered by immigration will go back to not being bothered about it.
Not really sure what your point is? That those talking about immigration were right and we should clamp down on it??
The left used to be about trying to make life better for the disadvantaged parts of society. Now it seems to spend moree time criticising people for microaggressions.
It wasn't just the left, the whole western world shifted its focus from economic justice to equality of individual rights. That's because having the right to gay marriage etc costs nothing. So now we're in a world which prizes individual rights more than the right to a decent standard of living.
Have you looked at the current lot? Strong and focussed isnt something that springs to mind.
Aside from looting the country, which is mostly done by those around them with them standing passively by, the main effort seems to be telling us how much the left likes to focus on gender.
The irony is that his next statement was that the lefts leadership lacked focus.
The left used to be about trying to make life better for the disadvantaged parts of society. Now it seems to spend moree time criticising people for microaggressions.
They gave up even the slightest pretence of genuinely trying to make any difference to anything by doing something as ‘establishment’ as being in power a long time ago. Corbyn was the living embodiment of this. A walking, bearded pre-emptive admission of defeat
They’re now like the Taliban where it’s various factions compete to be seen to be the most ideologically pure via competitive virtue-signalling and placard waving
The thing most notable about them, collectively, is that they’re all just so totally ****ing joyless!
They seem to revel in misery and only seem to be (relatively) happy while incessantly berating others for their perceived transgressions and hectoring us all about lifestyle choices or opinions of which they predictably don’t approve (which extends to cover pretty much everything)
The thing most notable about them, collectively, is that they’re all just so totally ****ing joyless!
They seem to revel in misery and only seem to be (relatively) happy while incessantly berating others for their perceived transgressions and hectoring us all about lifestyle choices or opinions of which they predictably don’t approve (which extends to cover pretty much everything)
He said, without a shred of irony...
to equality of individual rights
As I mentioned up the page... when the centre right coalition government introduced equal marriage, it resulted in bolstering of UKIP activist support. It's a battle ground the Far Right can use to its advantage when recruiting. What's your answer? For the centre right, center left, left and greens to throw minorities under the bus?
Not really sure what your point is? That those talking about immigration were right and we should clamp down on it??
Far from it. Just pointing out that how support for ideas is formed was very different before iPhones, Twitter/X... and everything else that changed society forever since the mid 00s. Comparing the public response to certain "key" issues (they shouldn't be key, they are totally periphery issues in real life compared to the stuff people are persuaded to ignore and accept) before 2007 and after needs to recognise that the media/communication/social landscape has changed totally. And for the worse... at least for now, in my opinion.
They gave up even the slightest pretence of.. blah blah beardy lefties etc
Binners that comment about 'the left' was aimed (if I understood it correctly*) at the whole left, as in the labour party, you know the party that you're a member of and supposedly support despite regularly coming out with unhinged rightwing rants like the one above. For someone who claims to be a labour supporter you're very good at sounding like some reactionary gammon down the local. Drinking in the Rose and Crown again are we?
*Even if I was wrong, are you suggesting that the labour party is now not a 'left' party? Fine if you are, it's what many of us have been saying for some time. I'm glad you agree.
What’s your answer? For the centre right, center left, left and greens to throw minorities under the bus?
Nope, I'm saying that the Labour party, being the party of working people, should fight for economic justice as well as equality of individual rights. Currently they're very good at the latter, and totally shit at the former.
Far right apostles in Dublin currently having fun over what they think might have happened. Possibly.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-67512628
The left is currently focused on gender because they have always fundamentally believed in equality of opportunity & representation.
This is just a new opportunity to work out how that can be applied to a world view that encompasses and welcomes diversity.
Our opponents will attempt to use our efforts to reach a fair and empathetic approach to belittle us.
As to the far right, there is only one solution.
Unfortunately, as I have been warned on several occasions, I'm not allowed to mention it on here.
"binners
They gave up even the slightest pretence of genuinely trying to make any difference to anything by doing something as ‘establishment’ as being in power a long time ago."
Sweetie, I'm sorry, but that's bollocks.
The two manifestos under Corbyn were costed, intelligent, and no more left wing than anything proposed by Wilson or Callaghan. Even Healey and Smith would have approved.
Agreed, @nerd. I was a Green Party member but gave up on them when they started sacking and suspending people for disagreement on self-ID or single-sex spaces. Fiddling, as you say.
The right just finally spotted a goal that had already been wide open for years.
Fiddling while Rome burns indeed... I work in the Arts sector and they dialled the fiddles up to 11 a while ago.
Though characterised as the Left I'm not sure it's appropriate to call them that anymore. Their concerns have been bred within a University system that has become increasingly middle class and priveledged. The compact between the working classes and progressive students that had existed since the 60's has completely dissolved.
They are as out of touch with reality as the Tory party they despise.
It's easier to appeal to hate than to understanding.
It's easier to blame others than it is to confront ourselves.
Those on the left are often happy to attempt to accommodate those on the right and tolerate them.
We can educate against ignorance - that works.
But when the right gain a foothold and attempt to use ignoranace as an excuse for hatred, then violence against them is not only justified, it's essential.
They are as out of touch with reality as the Tory party they despise
Indeed they are. Look at what they’ve spent the last few weeks doing.
Whipping themselves up into a state of apoplexy to demand that the leader of the Labour Party call for a ceasefire in Gaza.
You might as well throw your shoes at the sky to protest against clouds. The Israeli authorities couldn’t give a flying **** what the leader of the Labour Party thinks.
But no… I DEMAND THAT THE LEADER OF THE LABOUR THROWS HIS SHOES AT THE SKY TO PROTEST AGAINST CLOUDS
Meanwhile the Tory party are laughing their tits off at all the placard wavers and gleefully happy for the distraction
Utterly pointless, narcissistic, middle-class, self-indulgent virtue-signalling. A Jeremy Corbyn tweet made reality
Bollocks.
Northern mill workers placed their lives on the line to protest against slavery in the US, as well you know.
Young mill girls were fighting for the right to vote years before the middle classes adopted suffragism as a cause.
And again, you know that.
These are the things that have defined us...the Jarrow Marches, the miners strikes, the refusal to bow down before ****s.
Show some pride.
But when the right gain a foothold and attempt to use ignoranace as an excuse for hatred, then violence against them is not only justified, it’s essential. <br /><br />
Considering last few comments have been about gender, can you clarify what you mean by “hatred”‘ and why it would justify violence?
@RustySpanner - Those people were putting something on the line, not signing an internet petition then letting everyone in the world know, via social media, that they’d just done so
Or turn every single thread on this very forum onto a mouthpiece to voice their righteous indignation on the subject
Self-indulgent, narcissistic virtue-signalling, which is sadly all we get nowadays from ‘The Left’
The recent anti abortion, promotion of creationism and ban on teaching evolutionary theory in the US would justify violent opposition imo.
kimbers
Full Memberthe worry here is that Sunak will try and emulate wilders.
What, get 23.7% of the vote? He's well on track.
Klunk
Free MemberIt’s one of the vagaries of PR a far right party can achieve a “massive” “shock” “victory” (channelling my inner Daily Fail) with 23.5% of the vote. It’s what the tories are polling at the moment :/ .
This is more about where you're standing. If you're used to FPTP then yes it's natural to look for the "winner". If you're used to PR then it's normal to see the best loser. The national UK response is mostly down to the fact that we're used to pretending FPTP makes sense and is working well, so people are seeing it through that lens and it's largely being reported the same. I mean, we have a majority government with the support of about 20% of the people and we're the mother of democracies, surely everyone else must agree that this is normal too?
Let's see what government actually forms... if any. PVV seem to have surged largely by taking votes from less rightwing conservative orgs so it's a far right swell but the right overall don't look to have a good hand. It's hard to see a coalition or even minority government that doesn't involve some very strong compromises on their part, especially with VVD ruling it out, NSC making doubting noises and GL saying "never"
Unless I'm missing something because of language etc a centrist coalition seems the most likely outcome, or at least the most likely one to both form and function. Ordertide in effect, PVV are just too polarised and by definition hard to deal with, looks like they're already making pretty fundamental compromises on things that people voted for them to achieve just to stay in the game, while less extreme parties just naturally will find it easier to find common ground.
But no… I DEMAND THAT THE LEADER OF THE LABOUR THROWS HIS SHOES AT THE SKY TO PROTEST AGAINST CLOUDS
You mean like your very favourite Labour politician binners, the Mayor of Greater Manchester?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/starmer-labour-israel-gaza-burnham-b2438054.html
binners
Full Member
Those people were putting something on the line, not signing an internet petition then letting everyone in the world know, via social media, that they’d done soSelf-indulgent, narcissistic virtue-signalling
Posted 2 minutes ago
Dude, irony?
I love you very much, but a political party asking for people not to be killed is not....
"Self-indulgent, narcissistic virtue signalling"
It's a group of people trying to stop other people being killed.
"Those people were putting something on the line"
You're a socialist, right?
You've been a union rep?
You've stood up against ****s?
You've defended others against violence because of their race, colour religion or right to work?
You've actively defended your town against the NF or BNP?
Or are you just someone who likes to define these things as "virtue signalling?"
Choose your battles
With everything going on at the moment in this country, members of the Labour Party and MPs self-destructing the party for the sake of something that will have absolutely zero impact is frankly insane
A bizarre hill to choose to die on, given that the only impact it will have is a nice little boost for the Tory party
that will have absolutely zero impact
That's your claim which you make without providing any evidence. Plenty of political pundits and experts on the Middle East believe the opposite.
It is widely accepted that as global public opinion continues to grow in opposition to the slaughter of men, women, and children, it will put pressure on Netanyahu as he becomes evermore aware that western governments will eventually stop supporting him due to pressure from their voters.
Current US support for Israel is causing them massive damage in the region, and it is doing massive political damage to Joe Biden back home. What the soon-to-be UK PM says concerning a ceasefire has the potential to have a significant impact on both the US president and Israeli prime minister.
is a nice little boost for the Tory party
What on earth are you talking about? 75% of UK voters support a ceasefire.
They’re now like the Taliban
I've never read such nonsense. The Taliban position themselves as responding to genuine and widespread concerns, have no interest in the Israeli-Gazan war, and are now in government effecting their policy platform. They're not like the UK left at all.
I'd recommend everyone reads this, but especially those who feel that their violence is 'justified'
https://unherd.com/2023/10/the-tyranny-of-pathological-kindness/
binners
Full Member
Choose your battles
I chose my battles years ago.
And I refuse to compromise.
I will not watch my party stand by and justify children being murdered.
Equally, I will not endorse terrorism.
I am a socialist.
I have studied and questioned my beliefs over many years and believe that democratic socialism is the best outcome we can possibly strive to achieve.
I have no idea what you believe.
I have watched you denegrate every attempt at liberal socialism that has been proposed.
And yet, you call youself a socialist.
Starmer caused for a ‘humanitarian pause’.
The ‘ceasefire’ agreed is for 4 days, at which point the Israelis will bomb the living shut out of Gaza again
Can you tell me what the difference is? Because I’m struggling to see it as anything other than semantics.
Enough for ‘The Left’ to soil themselves in righteous indignation though, apparently
It’s almost as if they were trying to manufacture a reason to have a very public hissy fit to demonstrate their own righteousness
[MODS] Keep on topic please [\MODS]
Can you tell me what the difference is? Because I’m struggling to see it as anything other than semantics.
Yeah you're not stupid enough to believe that people calling for a ceasefire were asking a 4 day ceasefire.
The temporary ceasefire which Israel has agreed to is very clearly not the same ceasefire called by people such as the Mayor of Greater Manchester, as well you know.
[MODS] Keep on topic please [\MODS]
If we are all to be charitable...
People were asking for a humanitarian ceasefire before the means for a political ceasefire were in place.
It could be argued that an humanitarian ceasefire on its own could never have been achieved, because the conditions for cessation were always going to be dependant on political factors. Hamas took hostages to this particular fortune let's not forget.
I have nothing else.
[MOD] Seriously, keep to the thread topic or we’ll closed it. [/MOD]
I will not watch my party stand by
seems like they are not your party, if you have to think like that.
Which countries are getting things right (not far right)at the moment?
The Scandinavian countries seem to come out as the happiest places to live and that should be a primary measure of a country as the majority of people living happily is a good thing. The Scandinavian countries also manage to keep out of things pretty much and don't see themselves as some force on the world stage as maybe they don't really see that as important?
Never lived in any of the countries so haven't got a clue what it is really like, grass is greener etc,. but maybe the culture is just better meaning that as people grow up they grow up in that culture whereas in the UK for example any growing up recently is not off to a good start are they.
And yet, you call youself a socialist.
Every time binners repeats one of his pathetic rants about lefties, all I hear is my dad, a miserable old reactionary white man ranting at the world from his armchair with 100% confidence that he is right and everyone else is wrong. It’s a good reminder of what not to be.
Anyway back on topic. Seems like Wilders will struggle to form a govt. The test for the liberals now is whether they can change their tune and offer something different that people will vote for, otherwise he’ll be back next time and will win outright.
otherwise he’ll be back next time and will win outright.
At what point though, under normal democratic elections where each party is free to offer what they think the public want, and that public consistently votes for far-right candidates; do you say, Oh, OK..? I mean If Wilders can't form a govt, then eventually more elections presumably? I think the The Netherlands has been here before hasn't it, with something like 250 days without a functioning govt?
I mean at what point, if you're offering what you'd want as a left-wing party, and folks still vote for anti-immigration policies and so on, do you give folks what they want? (at the extreme; more or less a white ethno-state, like I dunno; Switzerland*?)
*Only slightly joking...
We have to define what hard right is.
I think what we are seeing now is ant immigration populism. IMO that is financed in the background by "oligarchs" and corporations as a distraction to move economics and legislation to their advantage. Largely that is just chipping away at the post war social consensus for most European countries, some are more along the path that others (the UK) but the use misdirection and direction of travel is impacting all countries. Some of the major political parties are very much embedded into the economic changes (the tories) others are happy to go along for the racist ride in order to achieve power without thought and/or concern for the long term impacts.
Countries like Sweden are seeing a big rise in the anti immigration rhetoric, but they are lagging way behind other countries in destroying the post war social consensus.
We have to define what hard right is.
Can we define it as this?