Because the elected parliament reflects how people actually voted?
No because the govt and policy is decided behind closed doors in backroom deals between parties. What people voted for is then watered down which means elections, campaigns and manifestos all become a bit pointless.
As opposed to being in a very safe constituency under FPTP where your vote makes no difference at all?
That is a problem with FPTP, one that can be addressed in other ways. The flip side is would you rather vote for a local representative with some skin in the game or have people making decisions who have never been anywhere near where you live?
We need much tighter rules on lobbying, and I mean eye wateringly tight.
Absolutely, I do support PR, but IMO political funding and lobbying are much bigger problems that need to be dealt with.
the worry here is that Sunak will try and emulate wilders.
fwiw i doubt it will work- we are past that stage- we had brexit, theyve been in power for another 7 years and things have only got much worse
I suspect it will take Holland a few years to realise that the far rights 'solutions' are nothing of the sort
That is a problem with FPTP, one that can be addressed in other ways
It'd be interesting to hear what the other ways are.
The flip side is would you rather vote for a local representative with some skin in the game or have people making decisions who have never been anywhere near where you live?
Depends on the system. I don't think anyone would be talking about a national party list system, and STV maintains the constituency link. In any case, in a safe seat (which only exist under FPTP), there's very little impetus for the MP to do anything for their constituents.
the worry here is that Sunak will try and emulate wilders.
eh? The tories have been filling the same political space as Wilders amd using the same rhetoric for years.
The flip side is would you rather vote for a local representative with some skin in the game or have people making decisions who have never been anywhere near where you live?
Firstly most of the decision makers wont have been near where you live under fptp (in theory I am one of the exceptions with a senior minister as mp but most of the 650 either arent in the ruling party or are just told to follow orders).
Secondly its pretty common for mps to have very tenuous links with the local area and, in some cases, to barely visit it outside of campaigning season. Depends how safe a seat it is really.
Your objections about PR seem mostly related to centralised vs or not government as opposed to the voting system.
the worry here is that Sunak will try and emulate wilders.
Why and how? Despite the UK having a larger and growing Muslim population (unlike the Netherlands where the Muslim population is not only smaller but has also remained static for at least the last decade) there doesn't seem to be much interest in banning the Quran and closing mosques.
In what way could Rishi Sunak emulate Wilders? Attacking asylum seekers doesn't seem to be helping him at all. And bigotry seems to be Wilders greatest appeal.
I mean making the entire next election about scapegoating immigrants
He's been doing that since long before the latest Dutch election result. Stopping small boats is so important, more important than even inflation, that Sunak wants to push through emergency legislation.
How's that all going for him?
there’s very little impetus for the MP to do anything for their constituents.
Such is the nature (and weakness) of representative democracy. There's a very good argument that that needs changing more than anything else. Always boggles my mind that MPs can get elected then do what the hell they like for a few years with little or no opportunity to get rid of them til the next election.
little or no opportunity to get rid of them til the next election
The flip side to that is the MP will be constantly in fear of being unseated which could also lead to highly populist decisions by the MP for fear of a vocal minority so instead of voting the right way on some aspect of social reform the MP is cowed into voting the way a noisy fringe group wants. In reality it would work, the threshold for effectively a byelection would need to so high as to make it quite difficult to achieve. If it wasn't every nut job single policy issue group out there would be constantly having a go.
I just know I'll get a hammering from the masses here as STW isn't a place know for its tolerance, fairness, or accepting the views of those not spouting some form of never never land Marxism but possibly this is what people actually want and is thus fair enough. Well according to the socialists.
Ever noticed how the so called workers are the right wingers? Just where do you see the Sun or the Mail? In builders vans, shops outside factories, budget super markets. Where the workers are.
I am not saying this is a good thing but it seems logical. I foresee more in the UK. I cannot see many people being overjoyed at the fact we had nearly 3/4 a million immigrants net this year. Not going to help the tolerance level is it? That isn't, as far as I am aware, a racist issue so much as "we are full".
People will do what is best for them in their opinion. Would it be just to stop that? Hmmmm
PR removes choices at the ballot box, as a small handful of parties seek to achieve a mass of support big enough to have any chance of affecting any change at all.
Spot the obvious mistake... I meant FPTP removes choices at the ballot box. Sorry. Agree with the replies.
And PR can retain the local link. I used to have a Yorkshire representative in the European parliament that I voted for. I've never had a local representative that I voted for in Westminster, ever, in my entire life. Millions of other people are in the same position, and have to petition a representative from a party that they would never vote for or support in order to raise local issues in parliament for them.
See also where PR of some form is still in use in the UK... local representatives sill exist there.
"no room for racists, sexists or those with any other hate based agenda"
And just how hateful is that?
spouting some form of never never land Marxism
Like I said, those who spend all their time going on about loony lefties.. 🙄
Seriously though, what examples can you provide of 'never never land marxism' on here? I'm not a Marxist, and I doubt whether any other of the so called 'sixth formers' on here would identify their political opinions that way. Is there a secret thread somewhere that I'm missing?
STW isn’t a place know for its tolerance, fairness, or accepting the views of those not spouting some form of never never land Marxism
Perhaps you could do your bit by not resorting to hyperbole and ridicule?
Just a thought.
I’m not a Marxist, and I doubt whether any other of the so called ‘sixth formers’ on here would identify their political opinions that way.
I am possibly the only one but I would definitely describe myself as Marxist. My political stances are at least 95% in tune with Morning Star editorials, which it is fair to describe as Marxist and far left.
https://morningstaronline.co.uk/categories/editorial
I am not saying this is a good thing but it seems logical. I foresee more in the UK. I cannot see many people being overjoyed at the fact we had nearly 3/4 a million immigrants net this year. Not going to help the tolerance level is it? That isn’t, as far as I am aware, a racist issue so much as “we are full”.
Its more of an ignorance issue
If services were all great then people wouldnt be looking around for minorities to blame, and its much easier to blame minorities than admit that you voted in the party that have chronically under invested in the country theyve been running for the last 13 years.
And it ignores the ageing elephant in the room, 1/4 of the population are over 60, we already have 3/4 of a million retiring each year, that will increaseas our population ages
Ever noticed how the so called workers are the right wingers? Just where do you see the Sun or the Mail? In builders vans, shops outside factories, budget super markets. Where the workers are.
Your definition of worker seems somewhat unique.
It also doesnt for the mail really match the demographics they themselves claim to target.
It also doesnt for the mail really match the demographics they themselves claim to target.
yep daily mail readers are 63% ABC1 so mattscm appears to be very confused
Mail is for pensioners, no?
FWIW, I'm in the Netherlands, and have been for seven years. I was properly shocked this morning - all the trauma from the 'no' vote and the brexit vote came flooding back. But this is different - and it's taken me most of the day, checking in with a few Dutch pals, and a cursive scan of Dutch news sites and social media to help me realise that.
Firstly, the overwhelming reaction across most of the sites I've scanned was 'ik schaam mij dood', literally translated as 'I'm ashamed to death'. 75% of those who voted did not vote for Wilders and his gang of racists, and it appears that those who did were largely boomers whose greatest concern is that Zwarte Piet isn't zwart anymore.
Secondly, there's already been a massive rolling back of the PVV's more abhorrent policies. I don't want this prick as premier at all, but if he publicly backtracks on his 'I want to ban the Koran and bulldoze the mosques' bullshit then that's a step in the right direction.
Thirdly, folk are rightly annoyed at the implementation of some of the VVD's green policies. They've attacked a lot of the farmers - rightly, in most cases - but failed to actually make any sort of plan to properly compensate them or help them become more sustainable and environmentally friendly. The result was food shortages last year, and lots of supermarkets going 'screw it, we'll buy from Germany' with, obviously, an increase in cost to us. Everything's gotten more expensive since the pandemic, which I know is the same worldwide, but folk are feeling more squeezed than ever and they're seeing a government who aren't helping them. Corporate interests are being looked after, though! Schiphol is the biggest polluter, so in order to offset their emissions I'm sure that there's been a concerted effort to reduce flights, or plant more trees, or something like that? No. They reduced the motorway limit from 130 to 100. Which of course feels unnaturally slow, so everyone sits at 115ish, and puts up with the few fines per year. Until election time.
Anyway. The majority of the chat going on right now is along the lines of WTAF just happened, and how can we dig ourselves out of this hole? PVV are toxic, so it'll be LibDemicide for any party that agrees to form a coalition with them. A majority left coalition with PVV as opposition could still happen. A minority ultra-right party could theoretically govern here, but unless it moves very far left it's probably going to be election time here again in six to twelve months.
“no room for racists, sexists or those with any other hate based agenda”
And just how hateful is that?
Are you suggesting these things should be tolerated?
And why the **** is daveylad still allowed to troll here? Never has anything to say except flinging sad little grenades about
C1 lower middle class supervisory or clerical, junior managerial, administrative or professional
I think you'll find a lot of working people fit into this category especially as the number of C2 and D jobs continues to shrink. The sad truth is a lot of the 'workers' across all demographics in the is country are actually quite supportive of unpleasant right wing policies, the last election proved that if anyone doubted it. You can dress it up as they were all duped but that doesn't really stand up as an argument and if it did it would suggest that democracy should be replaced with people eligible to vote so have to prove they have the capability to critically examine, understand and make a reasoned decision on the key issues of the day. Much as a bit of me would love to see that implemented its a pretty retrograde step but to voting rights of the past and not a fit approach for today's society.
I think the real question dazh should be asking is not what are the right doing to be so popular but why isn't the left breaking through, and I don't mean blaming Starmer and Labour which the usual suspects here would brand as right wing (or worse centrists) anyway, but the properly left wing thinkers, why are they failing to make headway with the electorate, is it because they are in a tiny minority and spend more time shouting at each other than trying to get their agendas into main stream politics? But then it's all the media / right wing politicians /corporations stopping them isn't it. Newsflash that's world you need to play in, that's why Corbyn failed so badly, it was always someone else's fault, the press weren't fair, his own MPs wouldn't support him (bit rich given his personal record in the party before becoming leader), the opposition were underhand.
The result was food shortages last year, and lots of supermarkets going ‘screw it, we’ll buy from Germany’ with, obviously, an increase in cost to us.
Interestingly, I heard Jacob Rees-Mogg promoting this approach this morning. It was very much "screw UK farmers and import more of our food". Thanks for all you've done to help the UK Jacob... slow handclap.
Yeah exactly as per @misteralz just been texting with my BiL (my wife is Dutch but has lived here for 25 years so hasn't got her finger on the pulse). He told me this would happen back in May due to a combination of the ridiculous over the top farming land clawback and other badly implemented environmental policies hitting the middle classes. General thought process was that NL was going over and above what it needed to do v other countries like Germany and France who were laughing at them.
I was joking about him joining us on the naughty step but he reckons that will never happen - at the end of the day NL needs EU even more than we did
Still just like when Brexit actually happened, the normal Dutch majority are now in shellshock and wondering what they have done.
At the end of the day so many people just can't resist a showman - it will eventually be the death of us I'm sure
Still just like when Brexit actually happened, the normal Dutch majority are now in shellshock and wondering what they have done.
Without wanting to start on brexit, I think you've made that up. Of course remainers were annoyed, but the majority who voted for brexit (with the possible exception of Boris Johnson) were quite content with the outcome.
Newsflash that’s world you need to play in, that’s why Corbyn failed so badly
Probably OT but since you brought it up, Corbyn failed because he allowed those in his own party who were determined to see him lose to remain in the party. Had he done the same as Starmer and expelled those who opposed him we might be having a different discussion. You're right though, he was too bloody nice.
@misteralz ; thanks for your analysis and view from 'inside'. Very interesting.
I just know I’ll get a hammering from the masses here as STW isn’t a place know for its tolerance, fairness, or accepting the views of those not spouting some form of never never land Marxism but possibly this is what people actually want and is thus fair enough. Well according to the socialists.
I quite like the basic elements of Marxism, personally. Stuff like free education, universal healthcare, a support system for those who need it, etc. As well as stricter controls on production meaning that the majority get a fairer share of the wealth generated, and curbs on greed. I'd quite like more of that. <br /><br />I cannot see many people being overjoyed at the fact we had nearly 3/4 a million immigrants net this year. Not going to help the tolerance level is it? That isn’t, as far as I am aware, a racist issue so much as “we are full”.
Personally, I am all for migration, as its that very migration that saw my father come here in the 1950s, to help rebuild a Britain shattered form 6 years of brutal war, along with hundreds of thousands of others, used as cheap labour. Migration has a net benefit to Britain, as it allows a flow of diverse thinking and new ideas, essential for the development of a modern progressive society. I'll refer you to one Stuart Lee; he had a good take on it. As for 'tolerance'; from whom do you mean, exactly? See; I'm as 'British' as anyone else born in this country, so I get an equal say in this issue of 'tolerance'. And as to the notion that 'we are full'; first of all, who's 'we'? I'd really like to understand what you mean by this. There are currently over 34,000 unoccupied homes in the capital alone, and London's population density isn't even in the top 50 of cities worldwide. The UK is outside the top 30 for population density by nation. So I'd say some way from 'full'.
Ever noticed how the so called workers are the right wingers? Just where do you see the Sun or the Mail? In builders vans, shops outside factories, budget super markets. Where the workers are.
A bit unfair to generalise ALL workers as Sun/Daily Mail readers. Many aren't.
What's wrong with just cupping up the water with your hands, and licking it up like a cat?
Think harder
We need to chat about expectation management....
Had he done the same as Starmer and expelled those who opposed him we might be having a different discussion
Yeah not quite the same though, if Corbyn had done that there wouldn't have been much of the PLP left. And as for
Still just like when Brexit actually happened, the normal Dutch majority are now in shellshock and wondering what they have done.
Without wanting to start on brexit, I think you’ve made that up.
There were definitely a lot of people who voted leave to give Cameron a bloody nose (which emotionally was understandable) they really didn't expect to be in the majority though and were shocked when their protest vote actually made a difference. Since then more and more people have had the 'what have I done' as realisation as Brexit continues to stink. Hardcore Brexiteer zealots on the left and right not so much.
That is a problem with FPTP..... would you rather vote for a local representative with some skin in the game or have people making decisions who have never been anywhere near where you live?
But that's not how many PR systems work is it....
Many PR systems allow you to vote for a local candidate, and then to vote for a party preference. Half representatives voted o local vote and remainder on party preference.
Seems to work in other places.
Are there any good examples anyone can point to in the world right now? Which countries are getting it right?
Scandanavia used to be held up as an answer but Sweden appears to have moved to the right and apparently the Danes are also exploring shipping asylum seekers to other countries.
New Zealand?
The whole world seems to be 'suffering' from the movement of people or at least using this as an excuse deplorable behaviour.
I think that the oligarchs are ****ing up society, and immigration is the easy target to displace the blame. The same mistakes are being made world wide, and instead of fighting the narrative the traditionally left wing parties are also paying lip service to the lies.
The whole world seems to be ‘suffering’ from the movement of people or at least using this as an excuse deplorable behaviour.
The world isn't really suffereing from the movement of people, it's suffering from massive inequality between the 1% and 99%. If you remove the daily worries and stresses about keeping a roof over your head and your family fed and healthy the vast majority won't give two hoots about immigrants. That's where mainstream politicians are completely failing. In fact they're not failing, they're not even bothering to try and solve the problem.
What people voted for is then watered down which means elections, campaigns and manifestos all become a bit pointless.
Some big assumptions there. People voting in PR countries know perfectly well that governments tend to be coalitions and will involve compromises. A compromise is far better than getting nothing under fptp which is what most people get most of the time. PR also gives more people a voice in parliament even if it's in opposition.
I think that the oligarchs are **** up society
It's not just the oligarchs, it's also big corporations. Apple has more money in the bank than most small countries and until recently they didn't even pay a dividend so that money wasn't even being recirculated into the economy (obviously outside of their existing R&D and production activities). Hundreds of billions sitting there doing absolutely nothing. Governments create the money, and much of it disappears into the bank accounts of a tiny number of billionaires and big corporations, which results in less for everyone else. Govts could get that money back, but they don't so they pump more money into the system which fuels inflation. It's a self destructive cycle, and all because governments and politicians don't have the backbone to face down the oligarchs and corporations.
When the left seems to be focused on gender, it will only push the majority of people to the right. The left is seen as weak and unfocused (just look at Starmer). The right is strong and focused alright, but focused on making the general public poorer and stealing as much out of the government as they can.
Whenever I look at politics and politicians, it always reminds me of Brewsters millions.
We won't be getting a local representative - Labour, who with waning SNP support and a sitting Alba cuckoo have parachuted in Danny Alexander.
Enough with the conspiracy theories, people movement is being driven by lack of resources created by a rapidly expanding world population and climate change. It is real, it has a disproportionate in specific geographical locations (UK not being one of them) and it will get a lot worse.
keeping a roof over your head and your family fed and healthy the vast majority won’t give two hoots about immigrants.
I think you are very wrong about that, politicians whipping up the hatred and cynically using our inbuilt tribalism are key. And despite the cost of living crisis the majority arent about to lose their homes or go hungry, I'd suggest those that are have more pressing concerns than stopping the boats.
When the left seems to be focused on gender
Is the left focused on gender? I hadn't noticed. I have seen attempts by the right to pretend that it is.
I think you are very wrong about that, politicians whipping up the hatred and cynically using our inbuilt tribalism are key.
Are key to what? How to lose the next general election?
Is the left focused on gender? I hadn’t noticed. I have seen attempts by the right to pretend that it is.
The right is obsessed with the contents of other people's underwear!
When the left seems to be focused on gender, it will only push the majority of people to the right.
So which are the right-wing parties that benefit from that? Obviously not the Tories.
The right is strong and focused alright,
Have you looked at the current lot? Strong and focussed isnt something that springs to mind.
Aside from looting the country, which is mostly done by those around them with them standing passively by, the main effort seems to be telling us how much the left likes to focus on gender.
That isn’t, as far as I am aware, a racist issue so much as “we are full”
"We are full" is just an excuse used by racists for expressing abhorent views.