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Edukator - good for you and for your enthusiasm and positivity. I hope that you are correct but fear that you are not. The phrase
is a masterly example of understatement.though irritatingly stong, currency
So Grum - I agree with your sentiments (at least here and in part) but what do you do about it? As Mcboo points out, whose fault is it that the RW press sell more. Of course, the fact that any political debate is framed by the tabloid press is a difficult one. Yes, it makes you tear you hair out in despair, but surely if we are in the minority then that is a fact that we have to live with in a democracy.
FWIW, the FT, The Economist and the BBC have, in my opinion, been biased towards Europe - but when you look at the FT circulation figures, what does it matter what "your banker friends" 😉 read?
OK so we've now agreed that only Guardian readers and Radio 4 listeners should be allowed to vote?it's for their own good
No just people that aren't idiots. I know plenty of people whose political views I strongly disagree with, but I respect them. They don't read/believe the Daily Mail though.
Yes, it makes you tear you hair out in despair, but surely if we are in the minority then that is a fact that we have to live with in a democracy.
I don't personally see that having a 'free press', an apparent cornerstone of democracy, means letting newspapers peddle vile bigoted lies to millions of people.
. Really not worth the effort.
By which you mean only people who agree with your opinion, I assume?
Like where I said this?
I know plenty of people whose political views I strongly disagree with, but I respect them. They don't read/believe the Daily Mail though.
OK, so everyone defending open referenda- do you honestly believe that the av vote was settled fairly, by people voting in an informed manner? We've seen exactly what happens if we throw things open in a referendum in this country.
It's not a particularily pleasant truth but when I put my ideals up against the reality, reality wins.
No just people that aren't idiots. I know plenty of people whose political views I strongly disagree with, but I respect them. They don't read/believe the Daily Mail though
not people like you of course? - you'll be way, way above that level
We've seen exactly what happens if we throw things open in a referendum in this country,[s] and it stinks.[/s] I throw a tantrum if my side loses
Fixed
mcboo - MemberFixed
Very good. Answer the question?
"do you honestly believe that the av vote was settled fairly, by people voting in an informed manner?"
Here's what passes for journalism in one of our most popular newspapers.
The story said: "Callous asylumseekers are barbecuing the queen's swans. East European poachers lure the protected Royal birds into baited traps, an official Metropolitan Police report says."Presswise asked the police about the alleged incidents and found that no one had been charged with any such offence in relation to swans.
The Sun printed a clarification on page 41 of the paper on Saturday that was agreed with the PCC.
It stated: "While numerous members of the public alleged that the swans were being killed and eaten by people they believed to be Eastern European, nobody has been arrested in relation to these offences and we accept that it is not therefore possible to conclude yet whether or not the suspects were indeed asylum-seekers."
According to Presswise, The Sun has not gone far enough.
A spokesman said: "There is no solid evidence to support a sensational story that has entered the public imagination, yet five months later The Sun is simply obliged to run a disclaimer that it confused conjecture with fact."
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=24624§ioncode=1
Deliberately stirring up hatred against asylum seekers by making things up - and this is where millions of people get their information from.
"do you honestly believe that the av vote was settled fairly, by people voting in an informed manner
Do you believe that any general election is?
oh, and to answer your question
as much as any election/vote is
Hey it's a free country, people voted as they saw fit. I'm not in the least surprised they didnt vote for AV as the argument self-evidently just wasn't made.
Awful lot of snobbery on here lately from people who think they know better than the man on the street.
Wasnt 'Animal Farm' on the curriculum when you guys went to school? '1984'?
uplink - MemberDo you believe that any general election is?
I can't remember any general election where one side was so reliant on outright lies.
For that matter, I can't remember any general election where a third of the vote would be described as a total defeat or rejection of a party. Certainly not the last one.
Mcboo, will you answer the question or not?
Incidentally- you've made the incorrect assumption that I was pro-AV. You don't have to have been pro-AV to look at the referendum campaigns and see a total contempt for voters, and an outright intent to mislead.
Mcboo, the 'man on the street is an idiot, apparently. Not fit to have an opinion, unlike those who are 'right.
Mcboo, will you answer the question or not?
Yes it was a fair vote.
But wait a minute, if I think that, does that make me politically unsafe? Am I off the electoral register or will you give me another chance Northwind? Let me know once you and Grum have formed a Peoples Committee and come to a verdict.
Will you answer the actual question, rather than some other question that you'd rather answer?
The "man on the street" is not an idiot. But if you give someone a plate of lies, and ask them to make a decision, they won't neccesarily give you the same decision as they would if they had been given the truth- or at least, 2 equal and opposite servings of lies 😉
The opposition to women getting the vote had similar arguments to some of these here, I really can't believe that there are some folks that think only people they approve of should be able to vote
Kier Hardie will be turning in his grave
So, those that support a referendum - you think it's a good, reasonable, perfectly fine thing that the only information most people get about the EU are bullshit stories about straight cucumbers and Theresa May's lies about asylum seekers and cats? That's good enough information to make an informed decision on an important issue?
are some folks that think only people they approve of
It's not about approving of them, it's about being sufficiently informed. If you've looked at all the info and decided you're against membership of the EU, then that's fine. But if you are basing your view on some half-remembered lies peddled by the tabloids then that's not fine.
Both, Mcboo. Here "les lumières" and "humanisme", and philosophy are part of the "programme de l'éducation nationale". Being critical and perceptive are skills that we need to teach everybody if democracy is to function.
Being critical and perceptive are skills that we need to teach everybody if democracy is to function.
Absolutely.
OK lets be brutal about this, the man on the street is not so much an idiot, that would be going to far. He is, how shall we say distracted, the average man on the street believes that the political class exists for his benefit, however jaded they may be with talk of expenses, or with the carry on of Murdoch's press. Deep down there is still the belief that politicians are running the country for the good. In particular their good.
So it is that the voter will allow the sell off of assets, such as railways,electricity,council housing etc, for less than there true value.
am pridem, ex quo suffragia nulli / uendimus, effudit curas; nam qui dabat olim / imperium, fasces, legiones, omnia, nunc se / continet atque duas tantum res anxius optat, / panem et circenses.
(Juvenal, Satire 10.77–81)
When was the last time the British electorate truely stood up and rebelled against the actions of their leaders? When was the last time a politician was called to account for their actions. That politicians can act with virtual impunity leads to where we are.
The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
grum - Member
So, those that support a referendum - you think it's a good, reasonable, perfectly fine thing that the only information most people get about the EU are bullshit stories about straight cucumbers and Theresa May's lies about asylum seekers and cats? That's good enough information to make an informed decision on an important issue?
Its just dawned on me.......you guys are Daily Mail readers!
It's not about approving of them, it's about being sufficiently informed. If you've looked at all the info and decided you're against membership of the EU, then that's fine. But if you are basing your view on some half-remembered lies peddled by the tabloids then that's not fine.
OK
So from that, you disagree with the current criteria for being eligible to vote?
OK
So from that, you disagree with the current criteria for being eligible to vote?
No not really, I was probably being hyperbolic (if that's a word 🙂 ) earlier - I think people should get much more political and critical thinking education, and the newspapers should be regulated properly so they can't deliberately and consistently present pernicious untruths to millions of people.
They often get made to print corrections, but they are always a tiny article on page 97 where the original story was a front page headline, so the damage is done.
I think people should get much more political and critical thinking education, and the newspapers should be regulated properly so they can't deliberately and consistently present pernicious untruths to millions of people.
OK......when I asked whether you guys had read any Orwell I was being a bit of rhetorical ponce. But seriously, do you know how scary this kind of language is? Did you pay attention to ANYTHING that happened in the 20th Century?
What? Educating people in critical thinking is a bad thing? The much derided 'Media Studies' I believe actually teaches people to try and critically assess the media which we are saturated with - quite an important and useful thing you would think.
It would rather depend on which branch of critical thinking they were taught, wouldn't it? I suspect you would only allow your 'right' way of thinking to be taught.
I suspect you would only allow your 'right' way of thinking to be taught.
Not at all - amazingly enough despite what you clearly think I don't believe everything I read in The Guardian either. Sometimes it can be a little bit like a lefty Daily Mail - though it's nowhere near as poor quality/malicious.
Isn't the ultimate critical thinking being applied?
If the "political elite" is [b]for[/b] it, and trying to resist the public being given the option, then it must, of its very nature, be good for "them", and bad for "us" 😉
Just for a minute then I thought an STW thread might be reaching a concensus: that democracy involves every sane adult having a vote and being given the opportunity to decide major issues. And that everyone should be taught the skills needed to make good use of that vote and the responsibilities that go with it before they reach voting age.
Just for a minute, now I'm not so sure. 😉
The question that everyone should ask of everything they experience is what is the teller gaining from this.
If you read the news, watch the TV, ask yourself what are you being told and why.
For instance, why is the Sun anti Europe, does Murdoch have a reason to oppose the EU.
It is the act of questioning that far too many do not do.
If any of my kids comes home and says they want to do a degree in Media Studies I will disown them.
It is the act of questioning that far too many do not do.
Exactly. Look at the sources of information, assess their arguments, analyse them for potential bias. As a history student this was drummed into me.
So mcboo - critical thinking is a bad thing? 😕
No weaseling. 😛
Grum - thinking is hard for many folk let alone critical thinking.
CFH - did yu really post that seriously?
CaptainFlashheart - MemberIt would rather depend on which branch of critical thinking they were taught, wouldn't it? I suspect you would only allow your 'right' way of thinking to be taught.
Critical thinking is the ability to decide for yourself from the evidcne offered.
Laugh of the day this thread - swiveleyed loons abound
[i]Democracy involves every sane adult having a vote and being given the opportunity to decide major issues. And that everyone should be taught the skills needed to make good use of that vote and the responsibilities that go with it before they reach voting age.[/i]
Anyone disagree?
Yes, I did. In your utopia, who would control what is taught and how?Who would control what evidence is presented?
Also, why simply say that someone who disagrees with you is a 'swivel eyed loon' or an 'idiot? Ever realized what that makes you?
so what would you do if voters refused to be 'educated' in politics and would rather choose how to vote after a Saturday night in the pub with their mates?
bar them from voting?
suspend all votes until such time as everyone takes it seriously?
Yes, I did. In your utopia, who would control what is taught and how?Who would control what evidence is presented?
and if you use critical thinking it does not matter what is presented, ask why what has been presented has been.
is it beyond understanding that Blairs dossier was created to justify a decision? go back to DS's CV thread, you present what assists your case and omit what does not.
Yes, I did. In your utopia, who would control what is taught and how?Who would control what evidence is presented?
Polly Toynbee obviously.
so what would you do if voters refused to be 'educated' in politics and would rather choose how to vote after a Saturday night in the pub with their mates?bar them from voting?
I dunno, this is the tricky bit. I like the use of 'air quotes' to try and make it sound like education is a bad thing BTW.
CaptainFlashheart - MemberYes, I did. In your utopia, who would control what is taught and how?Who would control what evidence is presented?
Ah - really - critcal thinkng is the ability to make decisions from teh evidence offered - there is no "'right' way of thinking to be taught" if you teach critical thinking - the two are mutually exclusive.
Also, why simply say that someone who disagrees with you is a 'swivel eyed loon' or an 'idiot? Ever realized what that makes you?
Oh I don't. There are folk I disagree with who I think are rational and I will engage / debate with them but some of the but some of the rhetoric on this thread is laughable in its sillyness.
In your utopia, who would control what is taught and how?Who would control what evidence is presented?
Clarkson ?
Nothing tricky about it, ffs! It's their opinion! They are as entitled to it as you are, regardless of how your view differs from theirs.
the whole point of electing a government is so that they can make the best informed decisions, having referenda defeats the purpose of the system?
Yup - thats what a representative democracy is and how it works
Nothing tricky about it, ffs! It's their opinion! They are as entitled to it as you are, regardless of how your view differs from theirs.
Yup, it is there opinion, and for the number of people who have died so people can have a vote and die because of their vote it is only right people think about what they are doing.
I believe Moral Hazard is one way of looking at it, or more specifically the disconnection to it experienced by the average voter.