[Closed] The EU debate in Parliament tommorow...

Where? tell me where we can build a power station where NIMBY-ISM won't be an issue? tell me where we can grow enough food to feed a population of c70Million?

The Government would simply build one and where well that would be up to them.
Like I said we would look at America and Australia and no doubt be other countries
whom be happy to deal with us.

Just proves the younger generation can't let themselves out of a paper bag unless you
open it for them.

You need to learn there is no such word has can't
You have to accept you can't ! But remember there is always someone else out there that can.

Thats my out look on such a word as Can't.

Can't frame that word and take it to bed

Ewan - the foundation of our society allows people to demonstrate their stupidity frequently!! Even here 😉

El-bent - Member
Who defines "best interest"? What happens in a period of economic prosperity/recession. The government could argue, sorry its not in the interests of the UK to hold an unsettling election at the moment, so we will cancel an election. Hmmm!!!
Nonsense.

What is nonsense here - the example (possibly?) or the logic (not at all?).

Surely all the government would need-to postpone or cancel and election-would be a parliamentry majority?

technically the crown calls an election [not parliament], convention says they do this at the behest of the govt but it is not essential.
Constitutionally I dont believe the govt could postpone one as the crown [ monarch] could/would just sign the paperwork anyway.

Not sure about the referendum - I'm euro-sceptic by nature, but accept we cannot just jack it in and leave. A referendum on a simple "In or out" question would probably see the "Out" people winning.

That said, taking some powers back or placing ourselves in the free trade area that Heath's government originally promised would be nice!

The Government would simply build one and where well that would be up to them.
Like I said we would look at America and Australia and no doubt be other countries
whom be happy to deal with us.

But the government just building one where it feels isn't democratic is it!

What about the democratic process, the enquiries, the MPs protecting their electorate.

As for dealing with the US and australia, would it not make sense to develop markets before you destroy the current market. The UK trades with Europe, if you walk away now before establishing a new trade network you are asking to fail. And there is always the issue that the US is and always has tended to protectionism when it is in its interests, such as now with rising unemployment.

Personally i would rather be in Europe if only to try and mitigate the rappant neo con attitudes expressed by all the British parties. Democracy can't function properly when the choice does not exist, which the current Conservative/Labour system has brought us to.

Only an utter, utter 'ricky', which an understanding of economics about a hundred years out of date would consider it prudent to remove Britain from the EU trading block. What exactly would we do next - ask the US if we could become the 51st state?

That's a little naive!

Europe gets a huge amount out of the UK; investments, a huge export market and huge taxation.

By leaving the EU, there won't be any loss of trading; they can't afford not to trade with us, but we'll suffer less from taxation to the EU and can extricate ourselves away from EU law. I think some people are confusing leaving the EU with ceasing trading with the EU.

The MPs, being career politicians, have less idea than those experienced in the real world about what makes this world tick. They certainly shouldn't have the facility to deny the public a fair choice over our future.

Surely all the government would need-to postpone or cancel and election-would be a parliamentry majority?

No, they would first have to pass an amendment to other sections of law, but its questionable whether they would be able to force this through against the opposition of the House of Lords using the Parliament Act - its a complex area of constitutional law, and there are some very interesting and enlightening discussions with arguments either way in Jackson vs Attorney General 2004, which was the HOL judgement on the Hunting act...

By leaving the EU, there won't be any loss of trading; they can't afford not to trade with us, but we'll suffer less from taxation to the EU and can extricate ourselves away from EU law. I think some people are confusing leaving the EU with ceasing trading with the EU.

Out of interest what makes you think the EU HAS to trade with the UK? what does the UK make that can't be sourced elsewhere?

Look at British companies and how many are actually british and how many are merely outposts of foreign owned organisations?

How much of EU law is actually an issue and how much is the result of media propaganda? Yes there are stupid laws, but i am fairly certain that Westminster is perfectly capable of making its own stupid laws without the help of brussels.

Another day another dose of STW authoritarianism from the Usual Suspects.

- The proletariat are stupid and cant be trusted
- If you disagree with me you are a bigoted Daily Mail reader

I dont actually think this is a fabulous time to be trying to organise a referendum on Europe, the Euroland economy is going down the toilet and could take us with it. Flip side is we havent been asked our view since the 1970s and then we were talking about the good old EEC, not a nascent federal state.

A timely reminder if one were needed of what a bunch of nasty little zealots occupy the back benches of the Tory party. They're in coalition with a committed pro-European party having failed to win outright last year, and think it is a good strategic move to go after Europe. Idiots.

So referendum? Yes, but not now please.

Mrmo

UK is a massive export market for mainland EU. They can't afford not to trade with us.

But the government just building one where it feels isn't democratic is it!

In such circumstances Democratic would not exist They would simply do what
is necessary to keep the country working/moving

UK is a massive export market for mainland EU. They can't afford not to trade with us.

Export market, only for as long as we can afford to buy things, which means the UK needs to export goods.

And crucial to the discussion, as an Export nation the UK would have to ensure its products comply with the rules of its trading partners. Outside the EU we can't use the rules to our benefit, we just have to do as we are told.

mrmo-I haven't seen any evidence that the EU's trade with us would be at all affected by the UK not wanting to be part of the European Federal State. Trading partners-YES, junior partners in a Franco/German Dictarorship-NO. I'm not even going to get into the EU gravy train that sucks billions from the European economy. EU membership has cost the UK £90,000,000,000 or so, the benefits of membership are there to see but so are the pitfalls.

If we withdrew from the EC I am absolutly certain it would have major effects. Companies that use us for a low tax low regulation manufacturing entry intot eh EU would have no incentive to remain, we would have no right to trade with the EC and I am certain we would lose much trade/

As for the canard of renegotiating our membership - forget it. It would never be allowed.

Sop its either in and use our influence to get decision made our way or out, have no influence, lose manufacture and trade.

mrmo-I haven't seen any evidence that the EU's trade with us would be at all affected by the UK not wanting to be part of the European Federal State. Trading partners-YES, junior partners in a Franco/German Dictarorship-NO. I'm not even going to get into the EU gravy train that sucks billions from the European economy. EU membership has cost the UK £90,000,000,000 or so, the benefits of membership are there to see but so are the pitfalls.

Switzerland. Do as the EU tell you. that is the example you are looking for.

Franco/German Dictatorship, then maybe the UK rather than play the stupid games it has done for almost 40 years would be better served if its elected politicians developed a set of balls and actually decide to work the EU to their benefit rather than whinging like spoiled children that the the bully has nicked their lunch money.

As a member of the electorate, Brussels/Westminster, doesn't make a blind bit of difference, both in it for themselves, EU gravy-train, well i give you duck ponds and expenses.

Article on it in [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/8843522/EU-referendum-Cameron-is-determined-to-face-down-his-backbenchers.html ]The Telegraph[/url] made what I see to be a key point underpinning the sense of Cameron's position:

The eurozone emergency is precisely the wrong moment to force this debate. Marriage counselling is pointless when the couple’s house is on fire. But the European crisis means that, much sooner than expected, an EU Intergovernmental Conference will be necessary to discuss sweeping changes to the Union, its fiscal structure and much else. Britain will be in a potentially strong position to barter, and to achieve the repatriation of powers it seeks. There would be a Treaty and a referendum on the renegotiated terms of membership. In private, Cameron’s team believes that all this is achievable – but not yet, and certainly not during the Coalition’s lifetime.

Companies that use us for a low tax low regulation manufacturing entry intot eh EU would have no incentive to remain

Eh, thats a bit of a convenient u-turn TJ - you've spent years on here telling us that all this neocon free market deregulation low tax theory as espoused by us right wing nutter's was bollox! Now you're telling us that being a low-tax, low-regulation economy is vitally important 😆

I think this one is going to have to be bookmarked for when you're telling us about why corporations should be paying more tax...

Of COURSE it would have major effects! Whether the GOOD effects would outweight the BAD is the question. Is there any reason, for example, that we couldn't recommense our trading agreements with the commonwealth? I'd personally rather do business with economies like India, Canada, Australia and South Africa-growing economies with a futre-than the PIIGS of Europe...and for the record I think you're wrong Jerry, if the EU were forced ionto a corner they'd give us the concessions we need. If the UK walked out Spain, Greece and Italy may follow suit-it would certainly cause uproar in Brussels. The Spaniards I know are clamouring for a return to the Peseta and for a little more autonomy. And as for the EU government itself, an unelected, undemocratic gravy train of jumped up little Hitlers if ever there was one-what exactly is the point of them? Anyway, this is seriousl;y bad digression from the point-should the people have a say or should they be ignored?

mrmo-two wrongs don't make a right. The EU State is a gigantic waste of money that should be being spent on other things than further lining the pockets of already very wealthy people. I read that DPM Clegg gets a £60,000 a year pension for ONE stint in the EU Parliament...times that by thousands and you start to see why we're skint and the political class won't hear a word against the EU...

theloner, to answer the question directly, the people should have a say, but i don't mean what follows in the irish you voted the wrong way vote again way.

The people need to have a full and true picture of the EU, the good, the bad and the indifferent. The media should accurately relay what is spent and what is the cost of membership. It should be made clear what the EU is, how NATO the European Court, etc etc all fit in.

Then with a population given a proper idea of what the EU is then Vote.

Problem is the current media situation means that there is no true picture, and so on that basis NO.

Go on, vote your way isolationism, pleeeeease, pretty please. Please Dave and Nick, please give these people a vote, pleeeeease.

Teh loner - there would be massive undesirable effects adn almost no desirable effects from leaving - we would be much much poorer.

Who are 'These People' Edukator?

maybe one way forward is to prosecute all politicians at the end of their term, if there actions are in the greater good fine, else seize all their assets. Maybe that would make them think a bit more.

and maybe look at the US, no MP can serve more than 2 or 3 terms.

There should be a referendum, the result would be at least 65% against the Eu, which would put the government if nothing else in a stronger bargaining position against some of the issues with Europe that are contrary to our National Interest.

The problem is, if such a vote were held here, and repeated in France & Germany, the outcome would be similar, talk to anyone in any none governmental or public sector leftist intransigent mode, and they all feel the same.

It's an over bloated bureaucracy that is overdue reform.

The threat of us leaving would bring that reform about sooner rather than later.

Wether or not there's a referendum is purely a decision for parliament but to even think that the public can't be trusted to give the 'right' answer is way out of order

saying that the media can't be trusted is neither here nor there - it's no different to any other national vote

Aren't the SNP avoiding the independance vote because they can't be sure they'll get the answer they want right now?

mrmo - The people need to have a full and true picture of the EU, the good, the bad and the indifferent. The media should accurately relay what is spent and what is the cost of membership. It should be made clear what the EU is, how NATO the European Court, etc etc all fit in.

Then with a population given a proper idea of what the EU is then Vote.

Problem is the current media situation means that there is no true picture, and so on that basis NO.

There has probably never been an election where voters have had all the relevant information presented to them in an unbiased way by the parties involved, and there probably never will be. It shouldn't stop this referendum going ahead. In fact, right now is probably as good as its ever been as far as informed voters are concerned, given that the internet allows the majority of people access to more information than has been available at any other time in history (but they need to filter it themselves!).

A final point (not specifically directed at mrmo), just because you expect a vote to go against you doen't mean everybody else has made a mistake! My own take? There shouldn't be a referendum, but purely because there will come better times for the UK to flex its muscles and renegotiate the treaties involved.

The threat of us leaving would bring that reform about sooner rather than later.

To be blunt, i don't think it would, the UK has spent the last 40 years whinging, we need to get stuck in and force from the front, not whinge at the back.

the EU does need to be reformed but ALL politicians are at fault on this, they are happy with the gravy train, and they don't see a problem. A referendum is not going to fix anything, can you imagine the scenario if the politicians choose to ignore the outcome and said it was all a trick to force brussels to do as they wanted?

Go and ride your bloody bikes FFS 🙄

and maybe look at the US, no MP can serve more than 2 or 3 terms.

<whispers......I dont think thats right>

"These people" are British people able to vote in British elections. (not me, which is why I said "these people" rather than we/us)

<whispers......I dont think thats right>

i meant look at the idea that the president can only serve two terms and adapt that to all mps.

The "best" about this is the message it sends about modern politics:

1. Government introduces political gimmick/opportunity to extend political debate (delete as appropriate)

2. E-petition lesds to debate on uncomfortable topic

3. Government uses all political processes (whips etc) to quash debate.

Marvelous! Not that it matters anyway. To the joy of the sceptics and the sorrow of the supporters the Euro and various part of the EU on the road to self destruction already. It is an appalling spectacle.

The days of majority politics in this country finished 20yrs ago. Politicians will do what they want and not give a hoot about what people want. Thats so clear now that no wonder so few vote. Wake up people - they dont give a monkeys what anyone says.

The days of majority politics in this country finished 20yrs ago. Politicians will do what they want and not give a hoot about what people want. Thats so clear now that no wonder so few vote. Wake up people - they dont give a monkeys what anyone says.

Only if you view Europe through the British media, temahurtmore and mcboo. We get different reporting (propaganda if you see it yhat way). We know that our debt : GDP ratios are better than the UK when bank bail outs are included. We know the euro has made trade and travel easier and given us a more stable, though irritatingly stong, currency. We know that our economies aren't threatened any more by Greece than the US is by California. We know we have a quality of life and health/education systems that mean we have the human capital to ride out storms that will leave others beached or sunk.

Tell that to the Spanish with their 20% umemployment, Edukator.

Only if you view Europe through the British media, temahurtmore and mcboo

Weeeeeeell.....I'm pretty agnostic when it comes to Britain in Europe to be honest fella, I don't feel all that strongly either way. What I'm pretty sure about is that the public havent been asked for their view for a long long time. Sorry if that comes across as zealotry.

As for the British Media, here's a few newspapers that supported (campained for) UK membership of the Euro.

The Guardian
The Independent
The Financial Times
The Daily Mirror

The anti-Euro press

The Times
The Telegraph
The Sun
The Express
The Mail

Lets agree to leave out the Star and the People, thats 4 pro, 5 anti, this is hardly Putin's Russia or Berlusconi's Italy. We all have a choice of paper to read......

OK the right-wing press sell more but whose fault is that?

more people vote in big brother than in an election

wtf would you let them vote on pulling out of the uks biggest trade partnership?

the torries have been happy to pander to media hysteria and xenophobia when it comes to europe for the last 15 years,
infact they still do, look at theresa may repeating a lie about eu laws, an assylum seeker and his cat, 1st told by nigel farage!, prefaced with 'this is not a lie', at their confrence
the sun, star, murdoch press, express, mail,telegraph have been spouting this same bollox for years, just look how many jump up on here waving their anti-euro hard-ons about- at the mere whiff of a referendum.
yet even the cons know we are better off in europe than out

OK the right-wing press sell more but whose fault is that?

The idiots that buy the Sun, Express and Daily Mail (and actually believe what they read)? Those papers dominate the print media in terms of circulation, and they all absolutely disgraceful.

They are routinely filled with outrageous lies and distortions about the EU (and lots of other things), with not even any attempt to be fair or balanced.

I lived in Spain for a year and soon figured that of the 20% unemployed (the figure was exactly the same 20 years ago) the majority were working in the black economy.

OK so we've now agreed that only Guardian readers and Radio 4 listeners should be allowed to vote?

it's for their own good 🙄

with not even any attempt to be fair or balanced.

Oh grum you are the very best.

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