[Closed] The EU debate in Parliament tommorow...

"swivel-eyed loon", who said that? Ah, him. Well this is the second thread tonight I'm giving up on up on due to TJs insults. Just as well he only has one vote eh!

Edukator - Member
Democracy involves every sane adult having a vote and being given the opportunity to decide major issues. And that everyone should be taught the skills needed to make good use of that vote and the responsibilities that go with it before they reach voting age.

Anyone disagree?

10 million Sun readers can't be wrong...

As long as she's got big tits.

TandemJeremy - Member
Yup - thats what a representative democracy is and how it works

But what happens when frequently those representatives prove to be corrupt, & incompetent time and again?

Yup, it is there opinion, and for the number of people who have died so people can have a vote and die because of their vote it is only right people think about what they are doing.

Exactly.

I dunno, this is the tricky bit.

Tricky but fundamental - and as you said to Mcboo, "no weasling!" 😉

I agree with your and Edukator's comments about the value of critical reasoning. Compared to when I was at school, subjects such as history and theology have progressed massively in this regard. I can't comment with any authority on medja studies, but remain to be convinced.

But grum, you really can't have it both ways. A free and democratic society works in two ways. It gives us the freedom to express our views but it also imposes on us a tolerance for others views - however unpleasant and abhorrent they may be. But this is the price you have to pay to avoid censorship, which is far worse.

FWIW - I think there is a problem with 'the freedom of the press" as in reality that means the freedom of a minority of parties to manipulate public opinion. But equally, to surpress the press would be even worse. The legal system is there to defend us from when they break the law and otherwise we merely have to bite our lips when others express things that we dont believe in. Either that or listen intently to see if they have anything to learn from (far more likely!)

One final thought/giggle before bed - I wonder if this thread has helped to explain why there are so many Old Etonions (and their like) in positions of influence!?! 😉

The press is relatively simple to sort out - sort out ownership to stop the concentration of power into one persons hands along with tougher regulation

Tricky but fundamental - and as you said to Mcboo, "no weasling!"

The weaseling thing was a reference to another thread. But I suppose no, much as I find the idea sort of appealing, no I don't think you can take away the vote from people who haven't made any kind of vague effort to understand what they are voting for/against.

It gives us the freedom to express our views but it also imposes on us a tolerance for others views - however unpleasant and abhorrent they may be. But this is the price you have to pay to avoid censorship, which is far worse.

Hmm... I don't think the balance is correct at the moment. I mean Paul Dacre is the chairman of the Press Complaints Commission FFS!

little things, if a paper has to print a retraction it should be given the same prominence as the original piece. No paper should publish a story they can not verify. bias is one thing lies something else. Politicians need to be held to account for their actions. Move away from soundbites give real details.

Does anyone think the Conservatives really won the election, or was it a case that labour lost it?

little things, if a paper has to print a retraction it should be given the same prominence as the original piece. No paper should publish a story they can not verify.

Kelvin Mackenzie admits he only fact checked [b]ONE[/b] story while he edited the Sun. And this is the standard we deem acceptable for a publication that influences millions?

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23997287-i-only-checked-the-source-of-one-story-when-i-was-sun-editor-and-that-landed-me-with-pound-1m-bill-for-elton-libel.do

Grum - I know and I was was cheating and being selective using the word...but you hadn't answered the question. 😉 Nice to agree with you (and blimey with TJ here) for a change. Must be a good weekend!

I dont think its acceptable but equally cant deny any Tabloid readers their wish to read their chosen paper and to vote.

Bon nuit!

A referendum on whether or not to stay in the EU would have a massive impact on the economic future of this country, as well as on the rest of Europe. I really don't believe that's a decision that should be made by a group of people who are largely ignorant of the implications of either choice, and who don't have the intellectual powers to assess those implications critically and come to a reasoned choice.

Rationally, it seems on a par with creating a panel of laypeople to decide on the most appropriate treatment in the NHS - they simply wouldn't be equipped with the knowledge and skills to make an informed decision. These decisions should be taken by the people we elect to do that job, and they should be held to account for the quality of their decision making.

I also think that any decision about a referendum on EU membership should be held over until the Scottish referendum on independence - It'll be a bloody faff if we have to rejoin in six years time or so, not to mention the cost of trying to control immigration from our 3rd world neighbours ten years down the line when the English economy collapses...

'Little E-N-G-L-A-N-D' la la la di la............

A referendum on the EU is stupid and pointless - do you really think withdrawal would be in the UKs best interests?

Thankfully I haven't tortured myself by reading this thread, but that comment by TJ at the start of the thread drew my attention. Was there ever a greater contradiction in one sentence ?

If you tell someone that a referendum on the EU is stupid and pointless, then why ask them whether they think withdrawal would be in the UKs best interests ?

That's the whole point of the referendum - to ask them whether they think withdrawal would be in the UKs best interests. So if you don't want to ask them that question, then why are you asking them that question ?

It seems to me that some people are confusing the EU with the EEC. There is nothing to stop the UK withdrawing from the EU but keeping all economic ties.

Switzerland. They're pretty small, out of the EU and doing fine.

As for denying the public a vote on something because "the papers are corrupt"? That's a pretty poor excuse. People are allowed to make an opinion. Regardless of what they base it on.

I agree with TJ on his point on representative government, but the point here is that we've been promissed a choice at various points and then been denied it. If the majority of the population want something, then to be honest, politicans should be making it happen. They are public servants, after all. Put in place, by us, to carry out our will.

Jackie Ashley in the Guardian

Nor should we have any time for the elitist argument that e-petitions allow populist campaigns to get going. We trust people, or we don't. From the banking crisis to immigration, the danger of millions of people feeling they have been shut out of parliamentary debate is far worse than any danger in allowing "difficult" ideas to make it on to the floor of the Commons.

As it happens, there was a lot of hype about hanging returning as an issue because of e-petitions: the last time I looked, it hadn't exactly attracted a mass movement of supporters. Even if it does, then [b]it is up to progressives to get out there, mobilise, argue their case and defeat the argument, rather than having any truck with trying to muffle it.[/b]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/23/epetitions-rescue-ailing-wheezing-democracy

It seems to me that some people are confusing the EU with the EEC. There is nothing to stop the UK withdrawing from the EU but keeping all economic ties.

Switzerland. They're pretty small, out of the EU and doing fine.

🙄

If the UK leaves the EU we will be shunned by the other countries. We are not seen in a good light anyway with continual moaning, our government sitting with the racists on the far right of the parliament, constant grandstanding and so on, continual criticisms and the frank xenophobia from the tory "eurosceptics" There is no chance of any half way house. and it would be disastrous to leave

For example

At one point in the exchanges, Mr Sarkozy was quoted as telling Mr Cameron: "We are sick of you criticising us and telling us what to do."

And remember folks Margaret always dug her heals in at the EU but signed on the line [u][b]every[/b][/u] time when treaties came up

sarkozy slapping down Cameron is a good example of the cons grandstanding for domestic consumption while. marginalising themselves in Europe

As for denying the public a vote on something because "the papers are corrupt"? That's a pretty poor excuse. People are allowed to make an opinion. Regardless of what they base it on.

kimbers - sarkozy slapping down Cameron is a good example of the cons grandstanding for domestic consumption while. marginalising themselves in Europe

Cameron, however, got his fellow leaders to insert into the final communique recognition that laws on the single market must be upheld and a level playing field safeguarded for countries not in the euro.

Poor old Dave isn't having a good time at the moment - last week it was Alex Salmond telling him to wind his neck in over the Scottish Independence referendum, now it's Sarkozy bitch slapping him over the Euro.

Must feel like he's back fagging for the bigger boys...

Here's a little test to illustrate our current 'market' situation within the EU, it works against each and everyone of you.

Right now, if you want to sell say your high end bike and another guy in Germany also has the same bike for sale and you both choose to use ebay. Your bike would earn more in Germany currently due to the strength of the Euro but hey that's another matter.

The fact is he could advertise his on ebay here, but you can't there.

You can't set up a German ebay account to circumvent the rules either. Even if you do happen to live there a while and set up the account, once you come back here you're IP blocked from operating it.

Just one of the many little trade 'barriers' within the so called free market that acts against us .

Now that, the free market, is supposed to be one of the benefits of membership, never mind the constant imbalance in financial contribution which is heavily weighted one way..

It's one of many examples of Nationalistic tendencies that are rife in business in both France and Germany, I could cite lots of similar little annoyances I've experienced over the years by firms I work for and friends who work in businesses that get hamstrung trying to export British goods and services.

Sarkozy is displaying the usual, "little man" symptoms when faced with a crisis. He knows that he is facing the decimation of his banking industry as a result of the crisis with the obvious implications of Fr tax-payers having to fund the re-capitalisation of the banks. Merkel is stone-walling him and Cameron is too. This is the sign of his (understandable) desperation.

Behind this is each player pandering to his/her domestic audience. In the meantime, the world is moving on leaving the Eu politicians trailing in its wake. Plus ca change....

do you believe that teamhurtmore?

I see a lot of exasperation for many years from the rest of the EU about the rhetoric from the UK especially from the tories.

Sitting in the EU parliament with a bunch of xenophoobes and far right clowns is bad enough and has lost the tories a lot of influence from the right of centre parties in Europe.

anti EU rhetoric and grandstanding just pees 'em off more. We have lost a lot of influence because of this

TJ - 100% yes. He is in an awful position domestically and knows that Angela is in the same boat (well, who isn't). There is a fundamental block in Europe as to who is going to pay for the next (massive) bail out of the banks that will result from the inevitable collapse of Greece (and possibly Italy, Spain...). NS wants to minimise the losses for Fr banks, AM wants to minimise the impact for Germany...hence the stalemate. Meanwhile, the world is going to hell and back!

The whinge at the Uk is a mere sideshow. The idea that BMW or L'Oreal would marginalise the UK because of a perceived anti-Eu stance is frankly absurd. They will be driven by business logic.

Dear God, I just wish we could move past the fact we are on it and that there is no realistic possiblity of leaving it without bankrupting the country once and for all and just get on with it.

What I really don't get is that it was the Tories that took us in and they have just consistently whined about it ever since. MTFU and get on with it you whinging bastards.

The majority of people want a vote. They should, surely, have it? If not what next? Capital punishment?

AV Referendum (2011) 42% turnout.
Welsh (2011) devolution referendum 36% turnout. 1997 original referendum 50%.
N. of England Parliament (postal ballot) 48% turnout.
Greater London Assembly/Mayor Referendum 34% turnout.
Scottish Devolution 1997. 60%.

In fact the only referendum in recent history where there has been an overwhelming turnout was the Good Friday Agreement ballot (81% turnout).

The reality is the vast majority of the British public couldn't give a shit about politics, less than 2/3rds even vote at General Elections, and the general trend in turnout has been downwards since the 50's. And only about 1/3rd bother to vote at the EU parliament elections.

Even the 1975 EC Referendum which did get a fairly good turnout (64%) got less "interest" than the general elections of the day.

So is that any reason to deny those who do give a sh*t the right to a referrendum?

I'd have five yearly referenda to renew the UK committment to The EU, NATO, the WTO and the UN.

So is that any reason to deny those who do give a sh*t the right to a referrendum?

If the majority have such little interest then presumably they are happy enough with the status quo. Add to that those who do have an interest and are actively in support of EU involvement, as well as those who are Eurosceptic but believe this is not the right time for the debate and it sounds to me like a minority are trying to force through an agenda. Lets face it if a majority of people felt that strongly then UKIP & BNP, the only parties standing on that agenda would presumable have managed to secure more than 5% of the vote in 2010.

I'd have five yearly referenda to renew the UK committment to The EU, NATO, the WTO and the UN.

The whinge at the Uk is a mere sideshow. The idea that BMW or L'Oreal would marginalise the UK because of a perceived anti-Eu stance is frankly absurd. They will be driven by business logic.

Very True, but if it makes more sense to make the Mini in Bavaria rather than cowley because of EU regulations, regulations that we would have no involvement in the creation of, then what?

The short termism of the city, the reliance on over seas investment, non of this places the UK in a good place to go forward as an independent nation with no involvement in Europe.

Leaving the EU as it "has to much regulation, cost too much" does not make much sence. I am pretty sure that countries like Norway and Switzerland follow most of the EU regulation the members have to but don't have as much influence. Look like Norway even contribute a lot to to EU: [url= http://www.eu-norway.org/about/ ]http://www.eu-norway.org/about/[/url]

Silly Norway. One day their North Sea oil will peak as well...

Very True, but if it makes more sense to make the Mini in Bavaria rather than cowley because of EU regulations, regulations that we would have no involvement in the creation of, then what?

Then that would be a negative. But more likely you would have an over-valued and inflexible currency, inflexible labour laws, excess regulation, so BMW will more likely what they do no -shift 3 series manufacturing to South Africa.

But more likely you would have an over-valued and inflexible currency, inflexible labour laws, excess regulation,

Isn't that what Dave and the kids are after?

BB - !!

The tragedy for Europe (but boost for the rest of the world) is that they are saddled with an uncompetitive currency that prevents them from boosting competitiveness. Meanwhile the US and UK, major emerging market economies and even the Swissies have been actively weakening their currencies.

The similarities with the collapse of the Gold Standard are striking.

Just a little commercial note for some of you. BMW makes one third of all it's European profits from the UK.

The similarities with the collapse of the Gold Standard are striking.

I think the point you might be overlooking is that our ability to weather the storm or otherwise is not greatly moved one way or the other by whether we are in Europe or out. This is the issue the Europhobes can't get their heads around. In actual fact paddling our own [s]canoe[/s] island further away from europe will not isolate us from what is going on there. There is sitll some impression in this country that we are somehow superior to everyone else. We are not, nor are our former colonial advantages and marketplaces open to us any longer.

There is sitll some impression in this country that we are somehow superior to everyone else. We are not, nor are our former colonial advantages and marketplaces open to us any longer.

i think that sums up the entire sceptic mindset
just because great? britain had a brief flirtation with being a superpower many years ago doesnt mean that going it alone we would somehow be stronger than the rest of the EU

it also goes back to why the mail sun etc sell so well, because people like to hear silly lies about how the french are with their rules about straight bananas or eu law/assylum/cat issues

I think the point you might be overlooking is that our ability to weather the storm or otherwise is not greatly moved one way or the other by whether we are in Europe or out.

BB- that is not the point I am making. The similarities I refer to relate to who decided to leave the Gold Standard and when.

The tragedy of the 1930s was that, in each case, the politicians who found the freedom to act only did so when they understood that the world of currency rules was over, and that currency policy was an indispensable tool for offsetting social unrest and gaining competitive advantage.

The tragedy of the 1930s was that, in each case, the politicians who found the freedom to act only did so when they understood that the world of currency rules was over, and that currency policy was an indispensable tool for offsetting social unrest and gaining competitive advantage.

And in 1939 we all know what happened. You can look at the past as much as you like and there will always be a detail that gets overlooked.

Just a little commercial note for some of you. BMW makes one third of all it's European profits from the UK.

and the winner is...............

common sense
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/

the only looser is cameron really

111 rebels Cameron is badly damaged by that.