People don’t like being called “woke” which gets their back up and generally makes them less receptive to reason
Have you got some evidence for this? I cant say I would be overly offended since it seems to be just the current fit all term of abuse the right used between complaining about people calling them names.
I see there has still be no definition of woke from the people spitting it out as an insult.
kelvin
I’d be happy to be called “woke” if it was defined in any of the ways that have been hinted at in these pages. I’d just like to know what people mean by it to engage with it. If it’s the new name for “politically correct”, I’ll happily take that “insult”.
Wokism is not just political correctness, but political correctness interpreted in a way that's devoid of nuance, and used as a sort of judgmental elitism. It doesn't win people over, it pushes them away.
Barack Obama made this point repeatedly about two years ago.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50239261
The reason why 'woke' has become an insult is that it is a new (& easier to spell) word for Left-Wing sanctimoniousness.
Thus from wikipedia: Writer and activist Chloé Valdary has stated that the concept of being woke is a "double-edged sword" that can "alert people to systemic injustice" while also being "an aggressive, performative take on progressive politics that only makes things worse
To put it more provocatively, Blair has done more for socialism than Corbyn, however much Socialists like to use the term Blairite as an insult. Because he was electable and got stuff done.
Yep, however Corbyn, Momentum et al have never forgiven him for getting elected - an unforgivable sin in their eyes. Which pretty much means we won't see another Labour government in my lifetime. Labour has just become a left wing interest group, of very little interest to anyone else.
Barack Obama made this point repeatedly about two years ago.
He was making the point that simply being judgemental isn't the way to effect change. So is being "woke" about being uncompromising judgemental? Or was he making the point that slamming others to feel better about ourselves is fruitless and counter productive? Isn't that true about all issues, not just about whatever "woke" issues are?
a new (& easier to spell) word for Left-Wing sanctimoniousness
That sounds just as wide ranging a catch all. If you push for you council to collect plastic recycling, because you think it's in the interest of residents and the environment, is that "wokism". Or does it only become wokism if you try and shame people into recycling their plastic waste?
Where is the line? If you're a teenager, and you draw people's attention to racist abuse going on in your school.. is that "wokism", or does it only become so if you seek harsh sanctions for those involved in the bullying?
Is it the issues, the attitude, the messaging, the remedies sought or the calls for redress? What makes something "Woke"?
Yep, however Corbyn, Momentum et al have never forgiven him for getting elected – an unforgivable sin in their eyes. Which pretty much means we won’t see another Labour government in my lifetime. Labour has just become a left wing interest group, of very little interest to anyone else.
Depends whether Domonic Cummings was right last night in his Tweet.
Is there a center ground worth fighting over and both parties need to be center enough to steal votes from each other to achieve their 51% in the marginal seats.
Or is Dom correct and there is no center ground. You either have to appeal to the center of the right, or the center of the left in order to get the far left/right to turn up and vote at all.
The problem for Labour and the left is Brexit proved Dom correct on Brexit and the right in general. But that didn't work when Labour did the same with Corbyn.
Personally (and mostly to avoid becoming a bitter, twisted, angry, jaded keyboard ranter/pub bore) I choose to believe that democracy is mostly the winner and that the wisdom of crowds holds true. The majority want those free market, small government ideals, so that's what they get. Perhaps that's a good thing. Maybe it means that for the majority life is no longer as shit as it was a century ago. We still end up with a Labour opposition holding them to account, but the majority have democratically decided that their interests are best served by a right-wing government.
Because he was electable and got stuff done.
He is rich! Very rich! Blair is doing well.
He was making the point that simply being judgemental isn’t the way to effect change. So is being “woke” about being uncompromising judgemental?
A dilemma for Woke.
On the one hand they want to retain their Woke identity, on the other hand they need to sleep with the "devil" which they don't want.
Maybe if we stopped faction fighting about what names we should or shouldn't call ourselves or each other, and actually set out what we wanted a fairer society to be in terms of opportunities, employment, social care etc etc, we might make some progress.
But as this thread has gone the same way as all the others that refer to left-wing politics or politicians, that seems unlikely.
That sounds just as wide ranging a catch all. If you push for you council to collect plastic recycling, because you think it’s in the interest of residents and the environment, is that “wokism”. Or does it only become wokism if you try and shame people into recycling their plastic waste?
Perhaps it is the fact that you choose to campaign on the issue of plastic recycling rather than certain other issues, on the grounds it is 'Woke' to do. Don't get me wrong, I see myself as Centre-Left & have voted Green ever since it was the Ecology Party, but I do recognise that an awful lot of bandwagon-jumping goes on.
I don't honestly think that recycling plastic is a good issue to debate 'wokeism' on. I have in mind, for example, the thornier issues around trans rights or debates on whether BLM is a 'movement' or a 'moment'.
He is rich! Very rich! Blair is doing well.
Had nothing to do with him getting elected. He decided he wanted to get elected and along with Alastair Cambell they made the necessary compromises to do so. A very simple method which worked very well. No one since, in the Labour party, has been prepared to make the necessary compromises, so failed miserably at getting elected.
the thornier issues around trans rights
An interesting point, but no idea how much appeal it has to middle england (the ones who actually vote). Probably quite high up the youth agenda (complete guess) but they are notorious for not voting. Personally, as a 50 year old, I'm rather 'meh' on the subject, seems complex, highly contraversial and at the end of the day I've other things to worry about.
Yep, however Corbyn, Momentum et al have never forgiven him for getting elected – an unforgivable sin in their eyes
Ah yes of course. People dislike him because despite being handed a winning ticket from Smith he then decided to drag the party rightwards and destroy its traditional base.
Unlike the idiots who still worship him and want to dust it off for round 2 though he actually has some brains and knew it was a short term gig. Hence why he walked away as the winner and left the mess to Brown to deal with.
on the grounds it is ‘Woke’ to do
So it's about motivation? This all feels so vague and circular...
It's powerful word, for sure. I'm still none the wiser how you can avoid being charged with it though.
Hence why he walked away as the winner and left the mess to Brown to deal with.
Every inside account I've read says that he didn't "walk away", he was pushed. Brown didn't suddenly find himself accidentally in the hot seat because Blair did a runner, did he?
An interesting point, but no idea how much appeal it has to middle england (the ones who actually vote). Probably quite high up the youth agenda (complete guess) but they are notorious for not voting. Personally, as a 50 year old, I’m rather ‘meh’ on the subject, seems complex, highly contraversial and at the end of the day I’ve other things to worry about.
My point exactly! (not well expressed by me earlier in the thread, sorry if it came across as trollish).
I - perhaps mistakenly, it seems - consider 'wokeism' to be intellectual navel gazing over semantics or issues that are important only to vanishingly small parts of the populace, at the expense of focussing on things that are of much broader concern.
Maybe if we stopped faction fighting about what names we should or shouldn’t call ourselves
Aside from its not fraction fighting in this case. Its trying to get people to define what they mean by "woke". Its clearly meant as an insult but what do people think it stands for.
Every inside account I’ve read says that he didn’t “walk away”, he was pushed.
He was pushed earlier than he wanted to go but he was clear he wasnt going to go for a fourth term way before that. Indeed thats part of why he was pushed since people wanted to give Brown time to bed in.
Blair wasnt an idiot and could see the constant drop in numbers.
at the expense of focussing on things that are of much broader concern
That's more like it. Before this thread, my understanding of it was "overly focused on the needs, and support for minorities, rather than the majority", which I think fits in with that description. And why it's such powerful a political tool... "they're only interested in the concerns of _____, not you and people like you". Of course the "only" bit is rarely true, but it is an accusation that can be thrown at anyone interested in having a society that works for everyone.
Their support of BLM, an inherently rac1st organisation
really? wow, dude, you need to do some reading
I have done plenty. To quote Black Lives Matter.com on the about page
Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc. is a global organization in the US, UK, and Canada, whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes. By combating and countering acts of violence, creating space for Black imagination and innovation, and centering Black joy, we are winning immediate improvements in our lives.
Now I am all for stopping violence against any community that is being inflicted by any other community. All violence is wrong full stop and rarely achieves the intended ambition. I don’t see why violence by white people against blacks people is any worse than violence within communities, between any other ethnic groups. Why target one specific section of the community?
If you rewrote the quote above and swapped the word black for white would it be acceptable?
I have done plenty. To quote Black Lives Matter.com on the about page
That doesn't read as racist to me, am I missing something?
I don’t see why violence by white people against blacks people is any worse than violence within communities, between any other ethnic groups.
Who said it was? Violence occurs for many reasons. If you have a way of trying to address ALL violence with one campaign... feel free to share it. Domestic abuse campaigns don't preclude that stranger on stranger violence also needs addressing. Etc.
This is why the "Woke" charge is so dangerous... if you set up a support group or campaign about any issue, it can be charged as not being "broad" enough, and the pretence/accusation can be that anyone involved it cares about no one else.
This it the "all lives matter" approach thrown at BLM.
Or "no kid should go hungry here" approach thrown at charities working abroad.
Perhaps, just perhaps, the people of Hartlepool are in fact seeing that believing in Socialism and voting for it since the demise of coal mining and shipbuilding and everything else hasn’t worked.. Perhaps the idea that economic policies are set to minimize government intervention/tax and as such reward individual effort has some appeal?
I think the hopes of the folk of Hartlepool are precisely the opposite - that good old Boris will bung them some cash to build factories and suchlike, as he promised, and not just **** off once he's shagged them. Good luck to 'em.
I don’t see why violence by white people against blacks people is any worse than violence within communities,
So it would have been morally equivalent for Hitler to kill 6 million random people and for him to kill 6 million Jews?
That doesn’t read as racist to me, am I missing something?
It's the usual "all lives matter" bullshine. I wouldn't feed it.
So it would have been morally equivalent for Hitler to kill 6 million random people and for him to kill 6 million Jews?
I fear I'm walking into a bear trap, but AFAIK, yes. We don't let Stalin off the hook because the people he murdered were of varying backgrounds.
It's not the end of Socialism quite the opposite.
It's Socialism with a different label. The pandemic was predominantly about socialism and it hasn't finished. Super baffoon announced we weren't a party of Socialists in October then had to carry on supporting the economy.
Socialism is the only future you've actually got - it's just the label that has been hammered over and over.
Look to Biden...
The UK Goverment generates wealth every time it spends into the economy. With a pandemic still in flight - the country is afloat for that reason.
I would flip this question around and recognise that the market economy is busted without the Government spending into the economy in the first place.
Big changes ahead - look for the bullshit labels as the Tories spend into the economy - probably on all the wrong things!
I fear I’m walking into a bear trap, but AFAIK, yes.
Luckily for us, the law disagrees with you and punishes hate crime.
All seems rather nasty but in my experience this is often the way of those pushing social niceness. Of couse not all but so often religious/socialist/inclusive/lets be nice to everyone types are actually the least tolerant. The " you must respect my views but stuff yours" idea springs to mind. Equally the idea that equality for all but "only if you are equal to what I want and the average must go up not down" can be prevelant. Its a little bit like the freedom fighters wanting Scottish Independence. It was voted against so they want another chance. I bet you if it had been voted for the same people would have been denying a re-vote.
Look at the Hartlepool figures. More than half voted Conservative. Why can't the loosers accept that in good grace? Because they are sore losers.
Had nothing to do with him getting elected.
I think I voted for him (well the party but his grinning from ear to ear got me voting) which makes me feel dirty now by just thinking about it.
Well he hit the jackpot and becomes very rich after his PM years, rich beyond ordinary voters' comprehension. Rich!
Luckily for us, the law disagrees with you a
So, if someone were an advisor to Hitler and he presented a plan to kill 6 million people according to criteria but offered the alternative of killing 7 million people completely at random, the morally correct thing to do would be to take the latter? (Feel free to adjust the numbers to an appropriate level in your answer.)
Its a little bit like the freedom fighters wanting Scottish Independence. It was voted against so they want another chance.
Does this logic also apply to the Common Market referendum we held in 1975?
"THAT is why Tory voters are selfish."
But so is this. To want something that others don't and to deny them the acceptability is selfish. To my mind the Socialist idea is selfish. You want to upset the natural way of the wrold and deny people the right to make what they want of themselves.
My point above exactly.
Britain is becoming a very rightwing country
But it isnt though is it?
Things are the same as they have always been, 24 hour instant reporting is bringing up things now that would never have been known about, or talked about 30 years ago as they are non-stories, yet puffed up to make them into a scandal. - Boris has bedroom decorated. So what. he's rich and has rich friends.
In reality, we have the most socialist Government for 20 , maybe 30 years, maybe more? Who would have thought they said 'stop going to work if you are in danger, and we'll pay 80% of your wages'. The amount they have funded businesses who have had to close down. The amount paid out to manage the Covid crisis. Yes, there are mistakes, and it's very easy to criticise after the event, but, they been more 'socialist' than most previous Governments, something that they would not have done of they were the 'uncaring tory scum' as depicted by some people.
And no, I didnt vote, and I do think they are an utter rabble, but Labour are no better, and probably worse.
Britain is angry - but it's lashing out at the wrong things. That's the bit that needs fixing.
Don’t know what you’re chatting about. In the last week I have been riding in Surrey Hills, NE and Scotland.
Looks like NE and Scotland are starting to takeover Surrey for high end bikes and vans. No one there looked poor. Massive change over last 10-20yrs. Next they all going to go vegan and drink expensive plant based milk in their high end coffee. No, that’s already happened 😂😂
we have the most socialist Government for 20 , maybe 30 years, maybe more? Who would have thought they said ‘stop going to work if you are in danger, and we’ll pay 80% of your wages’.
+1
This government can be accused of many things but failing to be socialist is not one of them. In addition to directly funding literally half the economy the government has been in direct control of our lives to a degree nobody would have thought possible 18 months ago. Anyone born after WW2 has never seen a bigger state and never will again.
At the risk of this becoming a repeat of various other threads…
There are two aspects to politics. You need to have the idea and the power.
The left (labour?) need to understand that people are not going to vote for socialism. What they need to offer is what people want which in my “expert political analysis” appears to be something near to the Torys unfortunately. So aiming left enough of that to get affect change but pick up enough ideas to get into power would be a good start. There’s no point winning the arguement on the margins of government.
Oh, and I’d suggest bare faced lies as well. Seems to have worked for Johnson. Tell them Brexit was amazing, we’ll deport all the brown people, get voted in, rejoin the EU, give everyone free broadband.
TBH That's pretty much on the mark, listening to the Vox pops and Labour door-stepper testimony Corbyn and Brexit cast a shadow over these local elections.
Labour's biggest success in my lifetime? Still Blair.
Who to some extent aped the 90s city boys and "professional classes" to score votes from natural Tories. In the late 90s the voting habits of what had been a Tory inclined demographic changed and we had a Decade of "New Labour" which sadly didn't change much socially.
Cameron marked an apparent drift to the centre for the Tories and some slicker presentation to woo some enough of them back. It worked for a bit but the current cluster was brewing under his nose the whole time... the EU split being the ignition point.
Boris's current popularity Stems from two main things, most obviously He's well and truly part of the "Elite" he claims to be smashing (He first took office as an MP about 2 Decades ago). So the old guard know this and are still happy to support the real project irrespective of what the figurehead says and does. Their wealthy, establishment core is largely intact.
Secondly the old Left/Right and Class divisions have pretty much gone for many who would have been "working class" under the old definitions. They don't care about Fatcher, expensive wall paper or shagging about they want someone to facilitate (or at least bang on about) "Change" so they can win big money and lease a new Merc, facilitating aspirational greed.
And for those not politically or intellectually engaged, Boris's appeal is almost on an "entertainment" level. He's like the strange Tory love child of Jeremy Clarkson and Oliver Reed, creating a "safe space" for people to indulge in lazy popularist Bigotry under the heading of "telling it like it is" and whole heartedly leaning into his vices so he can wear a lovable rogue badge... the "Brand" isn't conservatism it's Boris, the voters who've put a cross next to 'Conservative' in the last two elections have had his podgy face in mind as they did it, not the MP or Councillor that actually scored their vote, it's worked.
So the sleeze doesn't stick, corruption is apparently an acceptable price for installing a "disruptor" who "gets things done".
Socialism (whatever that even is anymore) and "leftist", "liberal" politics are unfashionable, slapped down by the meeja, and will not score Labour any power...
And what even is the makeup of the UK's "Labour" force these days? those at the bottom of the wage pile?
It's not miners, machinists or steel workers, those sort of professions are dwindled to almost nothing.
No it's un-unionised Retail workers, call centre staff and service sector employees, those stuck at on the bottom rungs of the Gig economy with mounting debts for a degree that hasn't benefitted them, while their employment rights are eroded, and their parents generation clap along...
That is where Labour's missing votes are...
Honestly **** the "red-Wall Man on the street" 40-50something idiot frittering his kids future away because the Sun said it was the right idea. They've ditched Labour, so Labour needs to ditch them. Instead the party needs to speak to their kids, maybe even to their grandparents (who might have a different perspective on things) but Labour needs stop trying to appeal to everyone and start appealing to those, who over the coming decade, are going to feel the bite from Boris's little adventure in government...
I don't think Kier stands a chance of winning the next GE, I doubt his successor will either it's going to take a full generation, who are still maturing, to actually push back on this current greed focussed regime, sold on a thin veneer of Jingoistic nationalism and sneering libertarianism. The current chapter of the "Culture Wars" has been lost in the UK.
Socialism (whatever that even is anymore)
Except, as repeatedly pointed out, we've had possibly the most oppressive*, most socialist government since WW2.
*against their own will perhaps, they'd probably have actually had to be less oppressive if they'd just swallowed their pride and done it sooner.
people to indulge in lazy popularist Bigotry under the heading of “telling it like it is”
I'm not sure if blinkered is the right word to describe a complete lack of self awareness, but
Honestly **** the “red-Wall Man on the street” 40-50something idiot frittering his kids future away because the Sun said it was the right idea.
The problem is you will never win an argument with statements like that. Standing wherever you are in the country and pointing at the North-ish of England and saying "it's your fault your poverty-stricken Sun reading imbecile" won't convince them that you're right. Maybe spend a few minutes trying to figure out why they don't believe a word your saying (starting with the insult throwing) and then try re-framing your arguments. Or rather you'll need an argument, not just a half page diatrade about you being right and if only poor people weren't so stupid they'd realize it.
*against their own will perhaps
Yes and I can't see them waiting that long to bring back austerity on steriods (as we 'have' to pay back all this largesse over the last 18 months).
Yes and I can’t see them waiting that long to bring back austerity on steroids (as we ‘have’ to pay back all this largesse over the last 18 months).
With a General election coming in 2 years time a 24 month spendathon with borrowed money seems far more likely. They can blame Covid and leave the mess for the next government to sort out.
Maybe spend a few minutes trying to figure out why they don’t believe a word you're saying (starting with the insult throwing) and then try re-framing your arguments. Or rather you’ll need an argument, not just a half page diatribe about you being right and if only poor people weren’t so stupid they’d realize it.
+1
I think, as others have said, that society is increasingly selfish and attention spans shortening. With the perceived increased stresses of life, if you're in control then you just need to throw out a few soundbites and demonise the unknown. Most people don't give a fig so as long as they're not directly threatened then they prefer the status quo. Heck even traditionally critical thinking degrees like history are being eroded in favour of STEM with the emphasis on income.
This government can be accused of many things but failing to be socialist is not one of them.
Let's see how socialist they are in 2 years time. They had little choice during pandemic as the country would have had a bigger problem if they didn't do what they did and they knew it.
However, will they continue being 'socialist; or will they revert to form. Any hint of the austerity word and we will know for sure.
I don’t think Kier stands a chance of winning the next GE, I doubt his successor will either it’s going to take a full generation, ...
Or two to three generations ...
It is not for Labour to win but for Conservative to lose.
The problem is you will never win an argument with statements like that. Standing wherever you are in the country and pointing at the North-ish of England and saying “it’s your fault your poverty-stricken Sun reading imbecile” won’t convince them that you’re right. Maybe spend a few minutes trying to figure out why they don’t believe a word your saying (starting with the insult throwing) and then try re-framing your arguments.
Don't try and make this into a North/South thing, it's about those jumping on the Tory bandwagon believing there's something in it for them, irrespective of where they live...
As nice as it would be to think they're receptive to constructive, reasoned debate, we're five years into it and and those middle-aged flippers are clearly fine with covering their ears and ignoring facts. Let's be honest if you consistently back a party full of bastards of, you're probably a bit of a bastard yourself.
It's a waste of breath, There's no conciliation to be had, they've already gotten what they voted for. Things will have to run their course.
Labour if they continue to be the party of working people, they need to focus on different groups, those that don't figure in the current vision, the generation that is going to pay the price for their parents folly is a good place to start IMO...
Admonish me for inflammatory language, it's no worse than what's coming the other way...
So yeah. **** Em!
