You're a 'Socialist/capitalist', That's a bit vague innit. I think that describes most people.
Many like to emphasise their socialist morals/belief but their actions are heavily skewed to the capitalist part of that description.
What actions (rather than thoughts) make us more socialist than capitalist?
The second is wokesim. Labour has gone woke and I cant for the life of me see how that was ever going to appeal to their original core voters who are / were white working class families
Has it? Can you give examples of this wokism? Since it seems to mostly be shouted about by the right wing identity warriors with nothing ever more detailed than snowflakes or is it social justice warriors or whatever will replace woke?
Labour has gone woke
Completely passed me by if they have.
Not sure anti-semitism counts as being 'woke'...*
*said very much in jest, before anyone starts!
The big issue for me appears to be how little of the total available vote you need to win. In Hartlepool the Tories got ~22% of the available vote, Labour ~12%. 58% of people didn't vote at all.
IANAT
Has it? Can you give examples of this wokism?
Pick an episode of Any Questions on R4 with a London Labour MP on, and listen to it.
How about you give us some choice quotes, so we can see for ourselves what you mean as regards "wokism" and how "London" Labour MPs are supporting or promoting it?
The big issue for me appears to be how little of the total available vote you need to win. In Hartlepool the Tories got ~22% of the available vote, Labour ~12%. 58% of people didn’t vote at all.
are you proposing to force people to vote?
pointless or factually incorrect soundbites that never become policy will be even more critical to winning.
How about you give us some choice quotes, so we can see for ourselves what you mean as regards “wokism” and how “London” Labour MPs are supporting or promoting it?
Classic Labour approach - dying in a ditch over your definition of what the 'right' answer is, which is working fantastically well at the polls...
Classic Labour approach – dying in a ditch over your definition of what the ‘right’ answer is, which is working fantastically well at the polls…
Classic internet Troll response when someone asks for some evidence.....
No, I just want to know what was meant as "wokism", and examples of what a Labour MP supporting it looks like... otherwise how can it be stopped?
Examples of labour wokism are many
Look at the support for criminal damage as long as the item damaged was a statue of a white bloke who has been dead 200 years.
Their support of BLM, an inherently rac1st organisation, its not that different to the KKK but from the other extreme.
Anything Dianne Abbot says
Their support of BLM, an inherently rac1st organisation
I don't think that's true at all.
Sweden: Social Democrats are running this place now and seem to be doing a good job of it. No major scandals, no major ****ups and the leader is a sensible and reliable person who appears to listen to experts.
On the other side, the Moderates are pretty right wing (and probably the closest to a traditional "Conservative"), so are the Liberals and the Swedish Democrats are openly racist. We still have an active Green contingent and even communists (Vänsterpartiet) but both are relatively marginalised.
My biased view says that the Moderates are now in bed with the racists (as a bloc), are drifting ore to the right and were responsible for the attempts at privatising a lot of things before the Social Democrats got in and mostly halted it. i think the Liberals want a piece of that populist action too.
The system here has enough parties to mean that coalition politics is a legit way of doing things and the smaller parties have, or can have, an impact on how things are run. I really should spend more time getting to know the politics of this country
Wokism = hand-wringing do-gooders for the 2020s
First it was 'let women vote', then it was 'we shouldn't be putting people in jail for being gay' and then it was 'nuclear war is bad'. Now they're all 'ooh, lets be nice to foreigners'. There's just no pleasing some people!
Social Democrats are running this place now and seem to be doing a good job of it. No major scandals, no major ****
Eh? Their covid response was cited as a disaster worldwide.
Sweden: Social Democrats are running this place now and seem to be doing a good job of it. No major scandals, no major **** and the leader is a sensible and reliable person who appears to listen to experts.
I think Starmer is a very smart level headed guy - would make a good PM.
Just a shame Jeremy Corbyn torched everything before he took over.
its not that different to the KKK but from the other extreme
Er... okay... I don't think we'll have a meetings of minds there. There are some people linked to BLM that could put many people off the movement, and so Labour supporting BLM could be seen as tainting them by association in the eyes of many voters. But saying that BLM is equivalent to the KKK in any way sounds more than a little hyperbolic to me... do you even mean that? Or are you just just trying to be all edgy and extreme to avoid talking about what "wokism" actually means to you, and why it's a problem for Labour?
Anything Dianne Abbot says
Give us a quote of something she has said that is "wokism"? Or is it the person that's the problem? She's said so much that many voters would be turned off by, but I'd still like to be able to get a handle on what kind of comments and ideas are "wokism".
Or is the person that’s the problem?
Yep, I wonder what it is about that particular person he has a problem with?🤔
I think Starmer is a very smart level headed guy – would make a good PM.
Just a shame Jeremy Corbyn torched everything before he took over.
+1
Their support of BLM, an inherently rac1st organisation
really? wow, dude, you need to do some reading
Surely 'wokeism' is just socialism: ensuring rights and fair treatment for minorities
Its just been nicely relabeled by the Tories
Everything is a culture war now
That's why half the country vote for an infamous liar who tells them how great they are, how great their country is and how great the sunlit uplands are, as well promising to protect them from those evil wokies...
My advice is go for a bike ride, I got out before work today, sun was shining, saw deer, pheasants, cuckoos, squirrels, angry landowners....
Their support of BLM, an inherently rac1st organisation, its not that different to the KKK but from the other extreme.
Wow...
Yep, I wonder what it is about that particular person he has a problem with?
If "wokism" is just about taking a stand against racism, and other forms of discrimination experienced by minority groups in the UK and elsewhere, I wish posters would just say so. If it's something else, let's address it and have a look at where Labour MPs are getting things wrong.
Their support of BLM, an inherently rac1st organisation, its not that different to the KKK but from the other extreme.
This marks you as a swivel-eyed loon not worthy of engaging with. (That's the kind definition).
I just don't know what Labour stand for anymore. They supported Brexit, despite it being horrendous for the working classes, they didn't oppose Covid measures despite them leading to 100k+ deaths and they seem more interested in shouting at each other then offering any real opposition.
The only Labour person who's offered any resistance to the government over the last 12 months on Andy Burnham, who coincidentally is expected to walk his mayoral election.
They supported Brexit,
Prior to the referendum they opposed it, then they tried at first to support it, but argued amongst themselves about it, then tried not to support it again, and support it at the same time.
I don't see why you're confused about what they stood for (or didn't)
If “wokism” is just about taking a stand against racism, and other forms of discrimination experienced by minority groups in the UK and elsewhere, I wish posters would just say so. If it’s something else, let’s address it and have a look at where Labour MPs are getting things wrong.
I was flippant before, but I do believe that 'wokeism' is the same perjorative as 'do-gooders', just updated for the 2020s. It's an easy, catchall term that can be applied to any progressive, leftie or vegetarian (probably vegan these days) that you wish to denigrate, and, in the hands of those who wield it thus, has no concrete meaning, in the same way that 'do-gooder' didn't.
The fact that it has racial connotations and is frequently used in a negative sense by the right-wing gives it a more sinister tinge than 'do-gooders' had IMO, but I doubt that's an overriding concern for many.
Perhaps it's time to accept that racism and fascism are actually very popular with a large proportion of the electorate, even apparently with some on here. Combined with FPTP that implies that we are going to get a government that is racist and tending to fascism.
How do we get racists and fascists to understand that there is another way to be, and that being less racist and fascist might improve their lives as well as everyone else's?
Prior to the referendum they opposed it,
Up to a point, Lord Copper. The Labour leadership were lifelong Brexiteers who ran a half hearted campaign. Given the narrowness of the result that lead directly to Brexit.
This is typical, people don’t vote they way you want them to vote so you call them selfish and racist.
I can't disagree with this.
Those of us who are Centre-Left and further-Left need to do some soul searching. If you go around with this "them and us" attitude you only create enemies and push people away.
Look back the the Brexit referendum. Remainers I'm talking about people more than even the official campaigns) went into it cocky and arrogant, we dismissed the views and feelings of Leavers because you couldn't put them into a Spreadsheet. We 'proved' we were right because we could 'prove' it would make us poorer and we'd have less freedoms, whilst never really addressing the concerns of the other side, we refused to accept that some people felt their livelihoods were threated by cheaper labour abroad and at home, or even, and I know this is a toxic subject, that fact that people felt their culture and society were being diluted and changed by immigration. We could have tried to appease their concerns either by offering change or explanation, but instead we branded them as racist, bigoted and stupid.
That said, Brexit is done, or at least the political part of it, by the time 2024 comes around few will still care about it, in fact for most the public it's a wound no one wants opening again
The biggest challenge Labour faces is that when the Centre-Right were divided, with the Tories in battle with UKIP et al, Labour still lost. Now those fringe parties are gone, they've a bigger battle on their hands.
As for this election, does it matter that much? In itself no, Labour will likely do as well as they usually do in Scotland and Wales and whilst losing Hartlepool is very bad in the News, it'll make little difference in Westminster, 2024 is when it counts.
The Covid situation was always going to be difficult for Labour, in times of crisis people want, expect unity from their leaders, if the election fell a few months ago, it would have likely been much worse for the Tories, but it came at a time when Boris is selling renewed freedoms, the fasted growth in GDP in 70s years and even sending the Navy to 'protect' those Tax Dodgers in Jersey, which I sure gave the right wingers a chubby.
Labour is still at war with itself, Diane Abbot and Len McCluskey putting the boot and Jeremy Corbyn saying people aren't being offered hope. If Labour can't offer something for people who read The Socalist Worker, The Mirror and the Guardian, how are they ever going to offer something for people who read the Sun and the Times? Or are they too disgusted by the idea that they'd rather stay in opposition then have people who don't sing from the same hymn sheet.
Starmer faces few easy options, Blair (I'm sure even mentioning his name will cause trouble) managed to work with the left of the Party, they didn't always like him, but they were able to set aside their differences for the greater good, the new Momentum backed Left doesn't seem willing to do the same and tried very hard to rid themselves of the Centre of the party via an all-but-in-name deselection policy. What do you do? Bring them into the fold, or out into the cold? If they lose in 2024 the Tories will enjoy nearly 2 full decades in power, at that point what do you do? Split the party into left and centre, who gets to keep the name? Let the centre merge with the Lib Dems, it's why they exist after all?
I do believe that ‘wokeism’ is the same perjorative as ‘do-gooders’, just updated for the 2020s. It’s an easy, catchall term that can be applied to any progressive, leftie or vegetarian (probably vegan these days) that you wish to denigrate,
So you don't like being called names, and it doesn't win you over.
Try this on for size:
How do we get racists and fascists to understand
I agree entirely doris. Hence, when someone talks about "wokism", you have to ask them what they mean my it... it's too vague for you to make any assumptions about what they mean. It's like when people call for "change"... the next step obviously is to ask "what change", and hope they can explain what they really mean, otherwise, the conversation can't even start.
It's a bit like...
we dismissed the views and feelings of Leavers because you couldn’t put them into a Spreadsheet
Which I take to mean, Leavers so often didn't like being asked questions. They weren't just dismissed out right, it was their lack of answers that made any sense that quickly ran all conversations and discussions into cul de sacs.
As a life long socialist/capitalist and a Trade Union member for a large part of my life and someone who witnessed Thatchers impact on the North East added to witnessing the Miners Strike from a few yards away i will never change my view of the Tories or the right wing elements of English politics.
I knew what was coming at Hartlepool and it confirms my 51% theory that people are fundamentally self centred, racist at worst xenophobic at best. This 51% has many reasons to “protest” vote i know from my own family in the darkest heart of the North East.
Here's my 2p on why you're right, but also the problem.
You can't just conflate laises faire, free market policies with everything else. Those policies should work, textbooks and manifestos say so, in just the same way other textbooks and manifestos tell you socialism will work.
Just because someone believes that for 98% of the population (we'll ignore for now the 1% that inherited their wealth and the 1% who would need support however much you threw at their education or healthcare). That doesn't also make them a racist, homophobe, xenophobe or whatever other mud you want to throw at them. That's just a different opinion of economics.
And that's your problem, shouting at the people of Hartlepool that they're racist idiots isn't going to endear them to your economic policies!
Perhaps, just perhaps, the people of Hartlepool are in fact seeing that believing in Socialism and voting for it since the demise of coal mining and shipbuilding and everything else hasn't worked.. Perhaps the idea that economic policies are set to minimize government intervention/tax and as such reward individual effort has some appeal?
Doesn't mean it's right, or that I agree with it, but I can accept a difference of opinion without resorting to name-calling.
Try this on for size:
How do we get racists and fascists to understand
Are you denying that racists and fascists exist? Or are you just identifying as a racist and fascist but would rather you were called something else?
<edit> Since calling them something else is likely to be a key part of persuading them to change their minds, it would be really handy to know how they would like to be described. Alternatively, they could engage in a discussion about why racism and fascism were in fact the correct views to hold and maybe I'll change my mind. </edit>
'Patriots', I think they like to be called these days.
Are you denying that racists and fascists exist? Or are you just identifying as a racist and fascist but would rather you were called something else?
My point was about name calling.
I tend to think of those that use the term "woke" as racist, ****s, or both.
Equally applies to people who who get upset about not being able to call a spade a spade anymore. We know what they are really upset about - not being able to be racist ****s in public.
I don't see any reasons why Labour should retreat from being Woke ...
Just push on the Woke agenda otherwise they are no different.
If Labour party does not adopt Woke identity what else can they be?
What is the point of pretending to be something else like Blair (he is rich, very rich)?
Then let the people decide ...
At what point in time ave the people of Hartlepool had a socialist governent? Theyve had some years of centrist (Blair) and the rest of the time increasingly right wing. There's no capitalist incentive ot improve Hartlepool - it works on a market level, or actually it doesn't, and it slowly dies.
'Perhaps, just perhaps, the people of Hartlepool are in fact seeing that believing in Socialism and voting for it since the demise of coal mining and shipbuilding and everything else hasn’t worked.. Perhaps the idea that economic policies are set to minimize government intervention/tax and as such reward individual effort has some appeal?'
Which is all well and good till you need something like healthcare, unemployment benefit, pensions, consumer protection etc. Then you have to pay. Looking from a foreign perspective Britain is becoming a very rightwing country, and reading the Daily Mail a real eye opener, and really not very different to Fox i nthe US. There is a lot of right wing propoganda in the UK .
My point was about name calling.
It's interesting that people are proud of being liberal or lefty and would not view those terms as 'name calling', but embarrassed about being racist or fascist and do view such descriptions as insulting.
It’s interesting that people are proud of being liberal or lefty and would not view those terms as ‘name calling’, but embarrassed about being racist or fascist and do view such descriptions as insulting.
That was my point. People don't like being called "woke" which gets their back up and generally makes them less receptive to reason. Names that are far more offensive.... Well draw your own conclusions...
At what point in time ave the people of Hartlepool had a socialist governent?
Given that in 2020/21 the government was paying 50pc of UK wages at times (IIRC), I'd say 2020/21.
People don’t like being called “woke”
I'd be happy to be called "woke" if it was defined in any of the ways that have been hinted at in these pages. I'd just like to know what people mean by it to engage with it. If it's the new name for "politically correct", I'll happily take that "insult".
At what point in time ave the people of Hartlepool had a socialist governent?
Depends how you view government as working, you could vote for Corbyn (if you lived in his constituency), but that in itself doesn't make the government any more left wing because the right -wing just writes you off and the center-left wing takes you for granted. There's a strong incentive in any political system to vote for the winning side (or close to it) so at least your voice is heard.
It's not, and never has been, a melting pot of ideas and consensus building, it's 50%+1.
To put it more provocatively, Blair has done more for socialism than Corbyn, however much Socialists like to use the term Blairite as an insult. Because he was electable and got stuff done.
Which is all well and good till you need something like healthcare, unemployment benefit, pensions, consumer protection etc. Then you have to pay. Looking from a foreign perspective Britain is becoming a very rightwing country, and reading the Daily Mail a real eye opener, and really not very different to Fox i nthe US. There is a lot of right wing propoganda in the UK .
Yup, but as I said, voting for Labour under the promise of something being done about it hasn't achieved it. Voting Tory might result in Pork Barrel Politics as someone else said, but hey, that's a result at least.
