The Torys have massively over promised on Brexit and this term in parliament. It will all change in 5 years as the country begins to understand just how long they have been in power and what they have delivered. They have an absolute mountain to climb and Labour plus others have time to regroup and make a new type of politics hopefully aimed at the young. We will never see old school socialism again but we will see a more caring form of government when the current lot fail
I – perhaps mistakenly, it seems – consider ‘wokeism’ to be intellectual navel gazing over semantics or issues that are important...
Yes, navelgazing subjects such as global warming, whether refugees deserve refuge, or indeed any issue of social justice.
... only to vanishingly small parts of the populace.
Yep.
Socialism isn't dead, it just needs re-branding.
Was talking to my wife about this and she’s adamant that Labour need to leave the working classes behind. They seem intent on voting Tory, as do the upper classes. Labour need to focus on the middle classes and the educated, somewhat like the Democrats on the USA.
Expand that base and maybe, just maybe they could get back in. But they need to accept that places like Hartlepool are long gone.
What Labour should do is secretly start a new even worse even more populist party, UKIP style. That'd get loads of support, split the Tory vote but not enough to win seats.
They just aren't thinking ruthlessly enough.
Socialism isn’t dead, it just needs re-branding.
Exactly. Poorer people still hate fat cats and toffs, and they want to look after themselves and people like them. That's why when they vote Tory it's so paradoxical, and can only be media-led.
Labour is dead - it has been overrun by the loony left and has lost the respect of normal, common sense folk.
Boris is now supplying all the socialism that most people want, there is no reason to vote labour anymore. Folk want meritocracy not endless handouts for the scroungers.
it has been overrun by the loony left and has lost the respect of normal, common sense folk
I think its biggest problem isn't that - it's that people are spouting all sorts of bollocks about them for all sorts of reasons. They've just become the people everyone loves to hate, if they aren't really thinking about the issues. Most people vote on sentiment, and Labour don't have a strong brand. Nothing to do with policies and government. Boris has a strong brand, because he comes across as likeable. That's all there is to it.
And Boris isn't socialist in any way whatsoever. Anyone who thinks that has no idea what socialism means and/or what Johnson is all about.
I do have to wonder reading some of these comments, what some people actually think "socialism" is...
Labour is dead – it has been overrun by the loony left
Care to name their ‘loony left’ policies? Because that jibe just sounds like the last 20 yrs of right wing tabloidism, no offence.
I do have to wonder reading some of these comments, what some people actually think “socialism” is…
‘Selfishness’ is the one that stood out. smh
I realised a few years back (around since when t’internet gave us the US rightwing memez) that all my existing (admittedly limited) political frames of reference are increasingly in tatters. ‘Socialism’ in the UK has AFAIK always been a social democracy with a mixed economy and a trend moving ‘forward’ of eroding and selling of publicly owned companies and resources. Except now people paint it as some kind of soviet threat in a way reminiscent of the USA’s red scare propaganda. It all feels so dumbed-down and detached from reality/actual history. Another weird twist is that ‘socialists’ used to be (and be viewed as) ‘anti-globalisation’ - yet now in popular culture and social media ‘the left’ are painted and broadly, vehemently derided as the ‘globalist elite’, while the actual millionaires, billionaires and multinationals are buying up countries from the inside out, funding right wing campaigns/governments who grow the global gig economy, reducing workers rights and outsourcing wherever.
It’s all Pete Tong.
What I'm interested in having spent lots of time understanding the Government finances and how it's taken the Pandemic for people to see they don't need to tax and spend (see other discussions or read Stephanie Kelton's amazing book) - is whether they revert to type.
Sunak is quiet at the moment and he's very old school - he's clearly been told to stay out of the way as was one of the proponents of get back to work asap.
Anyway inflation is barely moving and there are dark days ahead - there's no way we can't move forward without more Government money, but whether the Tories will claim we need to pay it back (clue we don't) the economy will even generate growth going forward like we have seen in the past is unlikely.
The recent forecast and excitement about a jump in growth is ridiculous given everything has been on its knees.
Labour is dead – it has been overrun by the loony left and has lost the respect of normal, common sense folk.
Boris is now supplying all the socialism that most people want, there is no reason to vote labour anymore. Folk want meritocracy not endless handouts for the scroungers.
A good example of what they are up against and the selfish attitudes that exist.
A lot of people are as ignorant as this - loony left (from the 80's?), anyone struggling/less privileged is a scrounger and so on.
The recent forecast and excitement about a jump in growth is ridiculous given everything has been on its knees.
Exactly. As soon as shops open people go shopping, as soon as hospitality opens people will eat out/stay in hotels etc,., as soon as hairdressers open people with get their hair done and so on.
The demand has not gone away, the supply was cut off.
People vote Conservative because there is no viable alternative in their eyes. They can't trust the other parties to handle the economy, their jobs and homes, education and healthcare because of how incompetent, odd, plain weird their leadership appear. And too many of their supporters are frequently symptomatic of failing to "clean house". Antagonistic, insult spewing, foaming at the mouth, rabid, violence threatening, claiming to be inclusive but anti-specific-group racists. Behind the scenes there is an army of grey civil service workers that do the "real" work once decisions have been made.
I don't care which flavour of government is in power. Hell, I've lived under democracies, dictators, theocracies and now single party communism. But right now, and my family/kids are back in the UK, I'm concerned the UK jobs sector was pushed for a long time into underpaid service sector roles. A sector that was smashed by the pandemic. A sector that shows it's vulnerable to all sorts of impacts. And the government kept trying to reopen it, rather than have a serious look at changing the way we live, and I'm thinking it's because their friends/donors/neighbours operate large businesses in that sector and will lose their income stream if it goes away.
I think what this Tory government has done so successfully, with the help of the right wing press and social media, is to draw people into their sphere of influence and once there, turn it into an echo chamber that they’re almost never going to escape from. They find most of the mates and family in there and any effort a small number might make to peer out, is met with fear inducing rhetoric, downright lies (with no risk any more of any recourse for this) or some nostalgic propganda that quickly snaps the lid shut.
I therefore agree with some earlier posts that in the face of this, Labour are toast for at least a generation as those already boxed up and voting Tory now are gone IMO.
Without major reform to the way most people consume media which seems highly unlikely to happen, Labour need to target those not already boxed up Tory (like the young etc mentioned earlier) and work bloody hard to keep hold of them, which may still not be enough. The odds are well stacked against them unfortunately.
Was talking to my wife about this and she’s adamant that Labour need to leave the working classes behind
No. 100% no.
How's targeting the middle classes working out for the Lib Dems?
Simply giving up on the section of the population that would benefit the most from you being in power because they currently don't vote for you is Labours problem to fix, not to ignore.
Socialism is what people think it is. There's no point trying to argue the finer points of definition.
I don't think labour are toast. Things can swing rapidly - Johnson is riding a wave of vaccine rollout/lockdown ending. In two years he may not have the momentum.
I'm coming to the opinion that while Starmer would be a very competent leader he doesn't have the X factor to deal with Johnson. He would do well against a less charismatic leader where there was a debate but that's not where we are. Not sure who would make a good leader. I think politics has moved away from older ideas of left and right at the present time. I'm not sure what Labours USP is right now. How do they capture the public's attention and demonstrate that if they are voted in they will bring positive change. Again, not talking about the in depth academic arguements, I'm talking 3 word slogans and sound bites.
Agree, Starmer would be a sensible choice but the UK is not into sensible choices
As for 3 word slogans, "For the many, not the few"? summed it up well but "Get Brexit done" seemed to trump it but that was admittedly an easy one with the given audience.
Be interesting to see what the slogans are next time but I am really not sure how a party trying to promote a more caring society appeals to a society that doesn't care.
I’m not sure what Labours USP is right now. How do they capture the public’s attention and demonstrate that if they are voted in they will bring positive change. Again, not talking about the in depth academic arguements, I’m talking 3 word slogans and sound bites.
This is the real issue. There's no point in them trying to speak to "lefty loonies" like me, not voting Tory is ingrained in my DNA.
And while I'm not going to be kina about the class traitors that turned Tory, I do get it, in a society dripping with it mages of aspirational wealth, it's easy to notice when you've been left behind and marginalised. That was leveraged to sell Brexit and is now being used to sustain the Boris party's grip on power...
But you're right, these days sloganeering, presentation and sheer stupid, visible stunts win support. Labour will need some of that too...
Folk want meritocracy not endless handouts for the scroungers.
Poorer people still hate fat cats and toffs, and they want to look after themselves and people like them.
I think both of those are true. I'm what should be a Labour voter, but there is no way I'd be voting for them. Too many 'causes' that they support. F.. them is what I would say is a typical response from people if I ask them at work about Labour.
I work in Social Housing. Prime Labour territory, but the people, mostly, think Labour are a joke. They hate the Scroungers, and there are many of them around. They hate the rich who try to dodge their taxes.
Labour are perceived to support the scroungers. People arriving illegally on boats, the usual response is to take them back to where they came from, or, less commonly, but not unusual, sink the boats and let them drown.People think that Labour support the illegal immigrants. Calling thee people deluded, racist etc will never work. They arent, they see things differently to the London Centric Labour view. Labour really do live on a different planet. Sending a Remain Candidate to a 70% Leave constituency election.
As for this election, does it matter that much? In itself no, Labour will likely do as well as they usually do in Scotland
So, not?
Hate to break this to you but Labour has been a lost cause in Scotland for years now, they are currently being beaten 38:4:3:2 by SNP, Libs and Tories respectively. That's thanks to a revolving door of poor leadership, antagonistic policies (vote down anything the SNP propose even if it's your own policy) and downright self harm (vote Tories to keep SNP out!).
Labour are perceived to support the scroungers. People arriving illegally on boats, the usual response is to take them back to where they came from, or, less commonly, but not unusual, sink the boats and let them drown.People think that Labour support the illegal immigrants. Calling thee people deluded, racist etc will never work. They arent, they see things differently to the London Centric Labour view.
No, they are, and utter ****s to boot.
Thanks @alanl
Voices like this are needed on these threads otherwise it reverts to the same circular arguments.
With regards to this mindset:
People arriving illegally on boats, ..... less commonly, but not unusual, sink the boats and let them drown.
I find this view utterly abhorrent, and would never ever consider voting for a party that even hinted at taking a view even close to this. I'd like to hope I'm not alone in thinking that.
What do you think is the best way for Labour to get through to people who think like this and turn that opinion around?
not unusual, sink the boats and let them drown.People think that Labour support the illegal immigrants. Calling thee people deluded, racist etc will never work. They arent
Uncaring heartless monsters rather than racists then?
Honestly I used to be very anti religion but there's a lot of people in this country rn who it seems did need to be brainwashed into thinking they had to be good or they would go to hell.
Parliamentary politics has moved from left to right tp right to right. Two economically conservative parties but one socially liberal and the other socially conservative (paradoxically Johnson's), there's your choice. Haystack or brilliantine.
I gave up the Guardian in 2017 and now thinking of ditching the NS. These journals used to (occasionally) employ socialists, now the only entertainment is in spotting how they sneak in their AC tropes and smears.
However, we have known this all along it's just that in a crisis you get a much clearer picture of who stands for what. The state of the LP is not a reliable indicator of the prevalence of socialist ideas, wtf has Adm Nelson got to do with (filthy rich) equality and (Jeffrey Epstein) justice? Westminster is definitely a 'self service' super market.
My thoughts are that "Labour" and "socialism" as brands are irreparably damaged. Speaking from personal experience / observation in my area, the aggressively vocal and dogmatic, middle class Momentum types (who miss the irony that they are part of the gentrification problem hurting communities) have massively disengaged the traditional Labour audience.
When they were campaigning in the run up to the local elections here, the focus was all about "causes", "equality", protest politics etc, rather than important localised grass roots concerns like housing, illegal redevelopment of a green space by a developer (that the incumbent Labour council aren't doing much about), transport so the area isn't cut off, the closure of a major factory/warehouse that employed many locals.
As a result, the perception is that middle class "campaigner/activist" types are running things and aren't interested in the traditional voters, and when challenged on this, they become aggressive, condescending and resort to the usual "gammons/bigots/idiots/racists/selfish" tropes rather than listening, engaging and acting on behalf of the people whose votes they want.
There needs to be a fundamental shift in the visible makeup of the Labour Party and a concerted effort to re-engage positively if they ever want to get in power again.
Boris is now supplying all the socialism that most people want, there is no reason to vote labour anymore. Folk want meritocracy not endless handouts for the scroungers.
Then folk are idiots.
They see folk getting a few quid here and there and resent it yet are happy to be financially raped so one of Johnson's chums/backers can make a killing (and no doubt sort him out with a backhander).
Labour are perceived to support the scroungers. People arriving illegally on boats, the usual response is to take them back to where they came from, or, less commonly, but not unusual, sink the boats and let them drown.People think that Labour support the illegal immigrants. Calling thee people deluded, racist etc will never work. They arent, they see things differently to the London Centric Labour view. Labour really do live on a different planet. Sending a Remain Candidate to a 70% Leave constituency election. Labour are a joke.
The Brexit vote was half a decade ago, yet it's still a defining issue?
Like I said before it's cast a long shadow and we now people choose their governmental representatives based on their support for a project dreamed up in Kent.
As for the Labour focus on the Westminster bubble, you're right there is far to much concentration on a London-centric type of politics by people who are a bit divorced from everyday reality around the country... But you are aware who Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson actually is, right?
Brilliant article summed it up, very much aligned with my thinking. They need to focus on what matters to the voters, not whatever well meaning "cause" is hot on the agenda of the metropolitan socialists:
Better to try to prove that you understand what voters want because you share their frustrations and hopes. So talk about what Labour would offer your community, your street. The genuinely affordable houses it would build, the childcare it would lay on, the care homes it would extract from the private equity barons. This would be about the state being on your side, rather than run for big business and select lobbyists. It would be supported by the leadership allowing Labour outside Westminster much deeper national and regional identities, to run ahead of the shadow cabinet, just as Preston city council has done with its guerrilla localism.
Finally the party should turn its constituency offices into community hubs, food banks, welfare advice centres – showing what Labour can do for voters even in long years out of office. Enough of mistaking focus groups for listening to people, of passing off professionalised caution as wisdom, of pretending top-down social democracy can fly in an era of polarisation and social impatience.
not unusual, sink the boats and let them drown.People think that Labour support the illegal immigrants. Calling thee people deluded, racist etc will never work. They arent.
Uncaring heartless monsters rather than racists then?
No, that is the same as where Labour are going wrong. People think/say that, but dont actually mean it.
What they do want is for their taxes to be used for the people of the UK, not to support illegal activities. Their children cannot get a home, yet if you arrive in a boat from France, you are given somewhere to stay, and food, at no cost to you. Try doing that when you live with your parents in the Midlands. The peoples anger is directed to those people who arrive illegally, and, to the people who can afford to dodge their taxes, when they are clearly able to pay a little more tax. Try getting out of paying a little less tax when you are on PAYE. Labour are taking the brunt of this anger, as they are sympathetic to a lot of causes, many of which are not on the radar of a working family.
The Tories are not much better, as I said earlier, they are a rabble, and probably the worst Government in the last 40 years (though I do think they have improved slightly over the last year), but Labour just cannot keep up. What should be an easy target for them is anything but. Corbyn should have had a landslide in the last election, the Tories were awful. Yet he had the biggest defeat ever. It is the Labour Party that is failing the Country, we need a good, strong opposition now. We arent getting it.
At what point in time ave the people of Hartlepool had a socialist governent? Theyve had some years of centrist (Blair) and the rest of the time increasingly right wing.
ok...
‘Perhaps, just perhaps, the people of Hartlepool are in fact seeing that believing in Socialism and voting for it since the demise of coal mining and shipbuilding and everything else hasn’t worked.
Wait, you’re saying they used to vote for socialism?
https://www.socialistparty.org.uk/
https://www.tusc.org.uk/
Or were you referring to them voting Labour?
@alanl. Very true. This is compounded by the fact that France is a perfectly safe country to live in and those genuinely fleeing persecution would be safe which just reinforces the picture that it’s all about economics and not safety
Really, people see the UK with a Covid death rate similar to Brazil and don't join the dots. Not much hope for sophisticated discourse on the doorstep.
Emigrate? I did.
The system just doesn't work in the UK at the moment. House prices are ludicrous compared to salaries. Tax is high for workers, which I don't have a problem with if everyone pays it, but companies such as Amazon pay zero on billions meaning schools, healthcare and infrastructure are crumbling.
We both teach and our quality of life would be through the floor back in the UK.
This is a shame because if the system worked then we'd live there.
It doesn't so we've taken our UK taxpayer paid for education abroad. We're doubly bad because we own property in the UK and so we're absent landlords pushing up prices and paying zero tax on the revenue.
Broken system and a real shame.
Edit: deleted
So are we saying that Labour need to pretend they don’t care about minorities, stop caring about minorities or actively take actions that disadvantage minorities?
Absolutely not. But there also needs to be a recognition that you can't pour from an empty cup, and you can't expect people focused on the economic here and now of their job security, their roof over their head, and feeding their family to think about anyone outside their bubble of focus. That's survival instinct not "selfishness" or whatever. If struggling communities feel neglected and ignored by a party that seems more interested in other causes, they won't vote for them. It's that simple.
Improve those communities' quality of life tangibly, and when they can afford it economically and emotionally, they'll share the love wider. While they're having a hard time, they'll hunker down and support themselves and their loved ones. Nothing wrong with that.
While they’re having a hard time, they’ll hunker down and support themselves and their loved ones. Nothing wrong with that.
This is how austerity pays/has paid out to the Tories/the rise of RW Nationalism. Grind people down for decades, carve up and sell off social resources, then blame asylum-seekers and foreigners in general. The coup-de-grace is to remove any perceived distinction between illegal immigrants and refugees, in much the same way as ‘legitimate welfare claimant’ and ‘benefit scrounger’ are now synonymous in the national mindset. Shaking off the EU and Labour at this time is a cynical masterstroke of Little England. The American Dream, over here, overpriced and underpaid. The field is now wide open for every cynical **** to clean up.
But without the luxury of time travel, there's zero value in looking backwards at "wot the Tories done" - and that's not to diminish the impact of austerity. But the man in an estate just wants a political party that has vision for the future and can tell him how they will make life better for him and his family.
Labour need to do that bit first. Like in the olden days, looking after working communities, building a sense of pride and support within the community. At the moment that seems to be neglected or forgotten.
What they do want is for their taxes to be used for the people of the UK, not to support illegal activities. Their children cannot get a home, yet if you arrive in a boat from France, you are given somewhere to stay, and food, at no cost to you. Try doing that when you live with your parents in the Midlands. The peoples anger is directed to those people who arrive illegally,
And how many people are arriving illegally and what is the actual cost?
Oh yes, that's right you don't actually have any idea of the tiny scale of it but it is nonetheless a big issue because someone can't buy a house somewhere.
The children can't get a home because their parents have been happy helping prices get out of control for the last 40 years.
Still, makes people feel better if they have an 'enemy' to blame.
At the moment that seems to be neglected or forgotten.
It’s gone and largely forgotten. Let it die. Communities are a thing of the past. We have the internet now, where ill-supported and ill-founded idealogical arguments preside seemingly in an abstract Punch and Judy-esque cyberspace, yet deliver surprisingly real results at election time. Like the tabloids, except faster and harder. Partisanal porn.
It’s a shell game within a shell game. If you can’t beat it, join it. Or else grab enough dough to drop out/emigrate before you’re found selling the family home/begging online to pay for urgent healthcare.
There is a social revolution in the UK and it’s ‘getting rid’ of ‘foreigners’ and ‘the left’. It’s working very well, you must admit?
The coup-de-grace is to remove any perceived distinction between illegal immigrants and refugees, in much the same way as ‘legitimate welfare claimant’ and ‘benefit scrounger’ are now synonymous in the national mindset.
Not anymore. Thanks to covid, pretty much everyone is now on the government's tit. 🙂
The question is whether you see society as divided by capital and class (you choose a side) or you support capitalism and hope to make it grow to allow for a little trickle down.
Not anymore. Thanks to covid, pretty much everyone is now on the government’s tit. 🙂
That’s a passing phase. They’ll turn their attention back to disabled, foreigners, single-mums and asylum-seekers once everyone’s back to the new scheme of working zero hour contracts and/or 90hrs p/w to clear the £1k pcm roof over head bill. Bread and circuses will remain cheap(ish).
It’s of course v handy (now we’ve left the nasty Liberal globalist EU) that those famous socialist Chinese people are supporting most of the UK’s needs by way of building materials, tech, clothing, household goods, etc. And with generous mark-up potential 😉
chrismac
The first is brexit which, certainly in their traditional northern heartlands, was very popular for reasons I am at a loss to understand. And Boris gets a lot of credit for getting it done
The second is wokesim. Labour has gone woke and I cant for the life of me see how that was ever going to appeal to their original core voters who are / were white working class families.
Pretty much it ......
On the other hand Boris is appealing to the other side of National socialism... that is the bit without socialism. Quick send the gunboats out to Jersey and he ho... next step invade Poland (or just pretend he will)?
At the moment that seems to be neglected or forgotten.
True. But that’s because of those actually in government, yet it’s the alternatives that get the blame, and lose the support of those voters.
If the real question is ‘why can’t a centre left party with a pretty standard European social democratic manifesto win in England?’ then it’s entirely down to the charmless leaders they choose to head them (combined with the right wing propaganda of the establishment and press of course).
People want to like their leaders. They want charm and smiles and approachable friendliness. Johnson has got this in spades, Corbyn and Stamer seem to have had their charm removed at birth.
How hard can it be to find a charismatic left leader? None of the shadow cabinet front bench qualify. It’s seems dourness is a necessary facet to rise through the ranks in the Labour Party.
Modern right wingers have sussed that charisma can sell any policies. It’s time the left learned it too.
