[Closed] The Empire STRIKES back...Who's striking then...

grantway you dont know me I can assure you I am not jealous

anagallis_arvensis nor am I angry

I am entitled as you lot are to say how I feel am I not ?

I am fully aware that pensions are not free

So if I took out a pension (which isn't free!) I wouldn't get any contribution from my employer so therefore I am far more worse off than public sector workers...At least its contributed be happy you get something!

Problem is project if the school wanted me too leave because I was unfit to work I'd get 1/2 the years available to me that I would have worked, why would I leave to go to work in B&Q? They'd have a hell of a task getting rid of me. It would cost and will be widespread... it will not be a way of getting the best education for kids.

country's up sh*t creek why take more!

TroutWrestler - Member
The employer contributes 14.9%. This is the deal that I signed up to, and was part of my consideration when picking a career in which I knew I'd never get rich.

Our pensions were restructured in 2007 for new entrants who accrue at a different rate. The point of this exercise was to ensure the long term viability of the scheme.

What is the difference now? In the Post-2008 world the Government want to reduce the deficit and Public Sector workers are an easy target for a 3% tax increase. The STSS doesn't need the money, but Government coffers do.

Why not just increase Income Tax for everyone by 3%? Because Public Sector workers are easy to single out and unlikely to vote Tory anyway.

Why cut Tax Credits? Because recipients are unlikely to vote Tory anyway.

See a pattern?

Na, doubt it most voted Tory to be hip and to shy of there working class backgrounds

no tory votes in this household!

So if I took out a pension (which isn't free!) I wouldn't get any contribution from my employer so therefore I am far more worse off than public sector workers...At least its contributed be happy you get something!

Then get a low paid public sector job. But you still will not be happy
being its low paid

You are Jealous and bitter

Im striking, so's the Mrs.

If Callmedave can tell me one thing he's had to go without this year i'll believe we're all in this together

its my view it doesn't make me jealous I am just stating the obvious and its obvious that most people on this site work in the public sector or just don't have an opinion or just don't care.

In the Post-2008 world the Government want to reduce the deficit and Public Sector workers are an easy target for a 3% tax increase.

unfitgeezer - Member
its my view it doesn't make me jealous I am just stating the obvious and its obvious that most people on this site work in the public sector or just don't have an opinion or just don't care.

Pointless
And Jealousy has got you no where

its your perception of what you think of me grantway but it seems pointless to keep saying I'm jealous how is that productive?

Presumably all the strikers here support the striking Greeks?

non sequitur

That's Latin not Greek...anyway, I wonder if the Greeks would agree with you.

The public sector doesn't contribute to tax

Yep. Striking for the second time this year even though at my great age the 'reforms' will not affect me. Why did the government say they couldn't do anything about the tax-payer funded £693000 pa pension of Sir Fred Goodwin when they see fit to ride roughshod over us?
Apropos of Danny Alexander, MP's pension deals and redundancy payoffs are fantastic, even after only one term of office.

You lot moan but at least your pension is contributed and you'll get a lump sum of some sort ! How the **ck is that fair?

Nope, I'm moaning because public sector workers/ordinary working people are being attacked by a Tory government.

I'm moaning because the Tories have transformed a crisis of the banks into a crisis of public spending.

I'm not a public sector worker, I'm not even on the cards.

Come and spend a week with me and then tell me that having teachers in their late 60's is a good idea.

Ditto nurses.
Ditto prison officers.
Ditto ambulance technicians or paramedics.
Ditto social workers

With age comes experience and knowledge

Not taking action myself purely by the coincidence that it happens to be a day off. I WILL be going down to the local ambulance station to distribute hot food and good wishes to the hard working crews who will be manning picket lines when they are not out responding to treble nines from the picket line.

What gets lost in this whole circular argument is that a pension deal is just part of the overall pay and remuneration package. If the country can't afford this package, then at least be honest and admit that what is mooted is a massive pay/remuneration cut for the nurses, teachers, social workers, healthcare assistants, paramedics, etc etc.

If the Tories came out and said "look, we just don't think your worth anywhere NEAR what you are getting now" to these people, then at least it would be honest. Not nice, but honest.

If the Tories came out and said "look, we just don't think your worth anywhere NEAR what you are getting now" to these people, then at least it would be honest. Not nice, but honest.

You want them to spell it out to you ?

They've already told you that they want you to live in fear :

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jul/30/public-sector-jobs-oliver-letwin ]Public sector workers need 'discipline and fear', says Oliver Letwin[/url]

[i]"Oliver Letwin, the coalition's policy minister, has revealed the government's determination to instil "fear" among those working in the public sector"[/i]

How much nastier do you want them to get ?

anagallis_arvensis - Member
Big n daft or i could just carry on teaching and be progressively worse at it and spend a load of time off sick.

it's called performance management, it helps manage people, or does your comment explain why so few teachers get managed out

[b]Unfit you chose that i chose something else[/b]

errrr.... yes, you have no divine right to stand in front of a class, nor do you have a divine right to retire 7 years earlier than the people who pay the employer contributions

TroutWrestler - Member
The employer contributes 14.9%. This is the deal that I signed up to, and was part of my consideration when picking a career in which I knew I'd never get rich.

I thought you signed up for a job that paid relatively well, offered career progression if you wanted it, security if you wanted to sit in a particular job and a pension that you can't get anywhere else, you are can't be comparing yourself to a shelf stacker at Tesco just because the Tesco main board are considered "rich"

Without wishing to muddy the waters any more... Whenever I read these strike threads, I'm 'struck' by; how well the media campaign has been fought, how little solidarity there is left, the extent to which folks think of themselves rather than the greater good.

Even reading that, i can see how the wrong people will think it is written in support of their viewpoint.

Nope. There is a place and time to do so but now is not that time nor that place to do so.

🙄

Ditto nurses.
Ditto prison officers.
Ditto ambulance technicians or paramedics.
Ditto social workers

Ditto builders
Ditto roofers
Ditto scaffolders
Ditto anyone that digs for a job
Ditto etc

Big n daft those jobs rely on fitness not mental agility

CharlieMungus - Member
Without wishing to muddy the waters any more... Whenever I read these strike threads, I'm 'struck' by; how well the media campaign has been fought, how little solidarity there is left, the extent to which folks think of themselves rather than the greater good.

Even reading that, i can see how the wrong people will think it is written in support of their viewpoint.

The roads will be quiet on Wednesday. 🙂

anagallis_arvensis - Member
Big n daft those jobs rely on fitness not mental agility

Ditto accountants
ditto solicitors
Ditto quantity surveyors
Ditto etc

teaching is not the only profession where people need to be able to perform to retirement age

My wife is striking, but is actually planning on going into school to sort out a few things whilst it is empty!

I on the other hand will be looking after our kids, whose school is shut + couple of our friends kids.

nor do you have a divine right to retire 7 years earlier than the people who pay the employer contributions

Ah that'll be me then, no wait it can't be I work in the public sector so work and purchase everything tax free.

With age comes experience but it may not be good and knowledge if you can be bothered to learn

There that's now true.

Teachers Strike 30/11/11
5 posts & 5 voices | Started 58 minutes ago by 2twenty0 | Add this topic to your favorites (?)
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2twenty0 - Member
Ok, looking to ride on weds as have the day off. Turns out all my friends actually have jobs, so does anyone fancy hooking up for a ride in the North West, Peaks, degla etc? XC or DH not really bothered.

Posted 58 minutes ago # Report-Post

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/teachers-strike-301111#post-3220103

Oops

big_n_daft - Member

Ditto builders
Ditto roofers
Ditto scaffolders
Ditto anyone that digs for a job
Ditto etc

Ditto accountants
ditto solicitors
Ditto quantity surveyors
Ditto etc

teaching is not the only profession where people need to be able to perform to retirement age

I never had you down as a radical big and daft. Good for you for putting the case for a sensible retirement age across the board.

Were you influenced by the news of over one million unemployed young people ?

big_n_daft - Member
yes, you have no divine right to stand in front of a class, nor do you have a divine right to retire 7 years earlier than the people who pay the employer contributions

As a university lecturer it is very easy to find out what i earn, what my pension deal is, and what i do for that money. We are pretty transparent; that comes with providing a public service people want to consume. It also makes us an easy target. Perhaps you could even things up by telling us what you do, what you earn and what else makes up your renumeration package (apologies if i've missed it). Then the forum can pass judgement on whether you're worth it, maybe undermine what you do, suggest new working practices and a new pay package.

[i]" Perhaps you could even things up by telling us what you do, what you earn and what else makes up your renumeration package (apologies if i've missed it). Then the forum can pass judgement on whether you're worth it, maybe undermine what you do, suggest new working practices and a new pay package"[/i]

I started/manage a bike shop six years ago that is owned by a charity, we employ 3 adults with learning difficulties on a full time basis and 5 more adults come and gain work experience throughout the week.

I do this on my own I don't receive a pension nor can I afford one I earn under £30000 and have a family, my wife doesn't work as child care would be more than we earn! (she is a trained nurse)

There you go shout abuse at me all you like!

As I said strike away you get no sympathy from me...

I catch the train in in a morning with 2 fellsa that work for a Coastal Guarding Agency * neither are Union members, both are taking the day off to go sailing.

* do you really need to know what this agency is called

I started/manage a bike shop six years ago that is owned by a charity, we employ 3 adults with learning difficulties on a full time basis and 5 more adults come and gain work experience throughout the week.

How is this charity funded?

Adults get funding part of that funding goes to my wage building rent running the program etc the shop is in profit (just) and that goes back into running the charity else where.

These guys get a job rather than pushing trolly's around at tesco or asda

As I said strike away you get no sympathy from me...

It's not sympathy we want, it's solidarity. One day they will come for you.

Adults get funding

How much?

I'm not having a go BTW, sounds admirable, but what I'd like to check is whether there is a point at which the whole enterprise couldn't work without the public sector?

A small part of the hypocrisy of the "public sector is a cost not a revenue stream" argument is that hardly anyone with kids would be in a position to work in the private sector at all if it weren't for the fact that teachers took their kids off their hands all day.

And I'd also take a guess that your business couldn't run like it does without a bunch of public sector employees giving support to those adults with learning difficulties that you mention?

In all honesty, it seems to me like all you public sector workers are just pawns in Thatcherism Versus the Unions, Part 2, the sequel

Except this isn't the 1980's. Its way WAAAAAAAAAAY worse than that. So what's required is for everyone to stop acting like a bunch of *ing 4 year olds, sit down and sort it out!

Michael Gove was right yesterday. There are a load of Union Leaders itching for a scrap. But frankly, pointing that out is a bit *ing rich coming from this lot. The tory right are rubbing there hands with glee at the prospect of strikes too. I'm sure the rent-a-mob of the Lefty/Anarchist lot, and at the Met are looking forward to some good rucks.

Meanwhile, the rest of us will look on in disgust and despair as the economy disappears further down the tubes, while the 'leaders' of both parties make the most of their pathetic macho posturing and rabble-rousing

Its pathetic and Its short-sighted. The general public, who are in possession of a brain, will regard both sides as equally sad and misguided. So we won't be seeing this as a battle where you have to take sides. And in the end we all lose! There will be no winners. Oh... except Call-me-Dave and Mark bloody Serwotka. Their huge salaries and gold-plated pensions will be equally unaffected

The lot of you need your ****ing heads banging together!

The lot of you need your ****ing heads banging together!

Woahhh! There.

I agree the Unions and the Government need to sort it out but the Government refused to listen so sadly Union vote was for industrial action. I'd rather there was a discussion, who wouldn't out of the employees but you can't blame the members and workers when the head of the parties can't sort it over a cup of tea.

I do this on my own I don't receive a pension nor can I afford one I earn under £30000 and have a family, my wife doesn't work as child care would be more than we earn! (she is a trained nurse)

I'm sure you have your reason but if you earn less than £30k and no pension yet you believe the propaganda that nurses earn over £30k and with a pension. Why aren't you at home? It's a curious question so if you choose not to answer for personal reasons then I'm happy with that.

So binners, what do you think teachers should accept as their pay cut? and what should the Government be doing to show them that "we are all in this together?"

I don't know. Its not my job to come up with answers, is it?

I'm not taking sides here. That's my whole point. But, predictably, this seems to have been lost. Though I am sympathetic to the public sector workers situation

It seems to me, and I'm sure a lot of other people, that any pretense to negotiation has been replaced by childish bickering and macho posturing.

At some point the two sides are going to have to negotiate a settlement. There is no option to this. But in the meantime, the public, who lest we forget, have seen pay freezes, cuts, etc, have precious little appetite to watch the fight. Its not helping anyone

Id love to be at home! But sadly the mrs one that battle

Unlucky Unfit but sounds like you do an admirable job.

I don't know. Its not my job to come up with answers, is it?

Quite - that's the government's job. Trouble is, what's the question?

If the question is 'how do we navigate the country out of its current economic position' then the government's answer to this has led to tomorrow's strike.

The representatives of the people who will be directly affected by the government's chosen answer believe not only that the answer is wrong, but also that more sinister ideological motives lie behind it. Other than withdrawing labour en masse, what else could the unions calling the strike be expected to do to voice this disagreement?

Its not the unions' job to come up with answers either - its their job to try and ensure their members, who will have to keep doing their jobs long after the current cabinet retire to a life of comfort, are not shat on by a government borne of privilege (like all British governments before them) and immune to the personal consequences of the decisions it makes. They absolutely have to be up for a fight, because that's what they're faced with.

Everyone is quick to blame this government, looks to me that most people have forgotton that the last government also put us in debt!

Two war ships being built not ready for years and we have no defence! Thats not very clever is it ?

Its simply not fair to blame this government for the mess...

I am in no way a conservative just saying what I see!

Everyone is quick to blame this government, looks to me that most people have forgotton that the last government also put us in debt!

That would be the Government then.

I'll be honest with you: I despise the Tories. Always have. And it was entirely predictable that they were going to set out on this course. Its their default setting.

But the unions have been absolutely brainless! They're playing right into their hands.

This afternoon, they're going to announce the worst economic figures this country has ever seen. Achieved through monumentally stupid economic policies. Do you think the predominantly right-wing press will be focusing on this? Of course they bloody won't! They have a picture of some Bob Crow-a-like snarling all over their front pages

Wrong fight! Wrong time! Far too Knee-jerk. The unions need some cleverer people in charge who aren't trying to hark back to the 'glory days' of the seventies. Because every day this goes on,,the public's sympathy gets less and less

No-one is blaming the current government for the economic crisis. What they're being blamed for is their proposed solutions to it and the effect these proposals will have on so many people.

that would be the government then !

I'm not striking but will only be going to emergencies, guessing it's gonna be a mad night for us.
Hope the weather calms down a bit, take care out there tonight my north of the border peeps.
(I believe the action down south starts in the morning rather than midnight up here?)

Midnight to midnight for us,

Binners - whilst I agree that there is a lot of posturing on all sides which is not useful or productive in finding a solution, the importance of attitudianl differences is not to be underestimated. A central tenet in conservative political ideology is a focus on the role of the private sector and a belief in the reduction of the public sector. Although it is interesting to debate contrasting political philosophies (and I can usually do so for hours ...), when those ideaologies are backed by a position of power, they become more challenging. It is therefore very difficult to find a 'solution' (via discussion or other means) when you have people approaching the same situation from different, but strongly held, ideological attitudes. Attitudinal differences will rarely respond to dispassionate discussion based purely on rational evidence, as all 'facts' are interpreted through an ideological filter. So unfortunately, based on an understanding of human attitudes and their impact on behaviours, I don't think a consensus will be achieved.

I'm on strike on Wednesday for a few reasons. Mostly importantly to me is that it is the only opportunity to get my voice heard. And I think that is the case with many people. And it is in protest against a cumulative situation - 20% reduction in staff with no reduction in workload (resulting in working unpaid in the evening and weekends); cuts in services to the most vulnerable in society (and that hits home very personally as it has substantially reduced my brother's quality of life, which was pitiful enough at the best of times), while pay freezes and pension issues are effectly a significant salary cut.

Is going on strike the 'answer'? No. But then I don't think we will achieve an answer via any other means, so this is a way for me to express what I feel about the situation. I would prefer not to strike, I can't really afford to lose a days pay, and I have far too much work to do, but I joined a Union to provide a collective voice on my behalf, so I will support this action.

Good man. I'd heard dawn sarf it was 7am.
Fair play though, will be taking some provisions to the folk I'm guessing will be outside our hospital tonight..
Might need to audit our blanket store too..

Well said Sue, +1

unfitgeezer, it sounds like you're running a brilliant service and I wish you lots of luck. It also sounds like it's funded, at least in part, by public sector funding.

Here's a thought: if you don't have a pension, who's going to look after you if/when you're unable to work?

unfitgeezer - Member
I started/manage a bike shop six years ago that is owned by a charity, we employ 3 adults with learning difficulties on a full time basis and 5 more adults come and gain work experience throughout the week.

I do this on my own I don't receive a pension nor can I afford one I earn under £30000 and have a family, my wife doesn't work as child care would be more than we earn! (she is a trained nurse)

There you go shout abuse at me all you like!

Nice one. Sounds like you have a rewarding job and add something to society. You'd probably find you share a similar outlook on life with many in the public sector. Keep up the good work, and i hope cuts to the third sector don't hit your business too hard. It is a shame you're wife's skills aren't being used more, as her training would have been a significant investment. Childcare is stupidly expensive.

As I said strike away you get no sympathy from me...

As pointed out above, we're not after sympathy.

I'm in the private sector, the wife's works in the Public sector, she's not striking but they have been told if you go out your position is in jeapordy when the next round of job cuts take place in the new year.

Nothing like a good bit of black-mail to prevent the democratic to air your views. 🙄

Good man. I'd heard dawn sarf it was 7am.

Seems to be based on each local Union. There's designated picket lines for ours, well the Union said there will be and they'd give us plenty notice. 13 hours is enough I suppose so maybe they'll let us know soon.

if you go out your position is in jeapordy when the next round of job cuts take place in the new year.

Really? NIce employers she's got I do hope she got that in writing?

Will sell my children...

as terrible as it sounds our pension will most likely be the sale of my fathers house/inlaws when they are no longer with us...and investing then.

Sue_W
It takes a lot to draw me into these debates, but I just wanted to say well done, the most rational discource this forum has seen for awhile IMHO.

.....will rarely respond to dispassionate discussion based purely on rational evidence, as all 'facts' are interpreted through an ideological filter.

jimster - Member
I'm in the private sector, the wife's works in the Public sector, she's not striking but they have been told if you go out your position is in jeapordy when the next round of job cuts take place in the new year.

Nothing like a good bit of black-mail to prevent the democratic to air your views

Is that even legal? Presumably she has told her union rep...?

Sue - I can understand completely where you're coming from.

But just as an example: If everyone is so short-staffed and over-worked,a work to rule would have a massive effect! Thus putting the unions in a much stronger position in negotiations.

I think the unions were far too keen to get out on strike. They need to be shrewd. The Tories will be. Unfortunately, I feel this is the opening salvo from them. I think they're settling in for the long haul. A prolonged battle. With who-knows-what ultimate aims. Depressing

Drac - Moderator
Midnight to midnight for us,

Mersey tunnels are closed tonight from 23.45, to 00,145 on friday, no mersey ferries or cross river buses, just 25 year old trains running through a 150 year old river tunnel.

SO there will be massive queues at runcorn bridge and m53/m56.

and i would be curious to know how thats not going to disrupt ordinry peeps lives,and work places and what its going to achieve.

I think the Tories are loving that the unions are going to strike. It's perfect ammunition for them. The media and politicians are whipping up a storm staying how the unions are not prepared to negotiate - getting the general public have anti-union and anti-public sector views (which seems to be working).

It gives them ammunition to privatize the NHS and schools. Which is already quietly happening, academy's etc. My missus is striking tomorrow, she doesn't want to, but feels the offer on the table isn't quite the deal the Tories are claiming it is - she has to work more hours, for less, pay in more (which she has no problem with), for less (which she has a problem with) etc etc.

She was also told the other day that if they did not accept the new terms, then their contract would be removed, terms re-written anyway, and they'd have to reapply for their jobs. Doesn't exactly sound like negotiation by the Tories to me.

Before all this kicked off, I have very little views on one party or another. They're all a bunch of lying, thieving bastards - but the Tories are beyond that. They literally make me feel sick having to listen to their lies when being interviewed on the TV.

The sooner this country gets used to being stagnant and realises wealth generation doesn't (relatively) live here any more the sooner we can all be happy playing around on bicycles. Happiness can be cheap. It's up to you.

A lot of people (some in power) need to look at where we are not where we were.

Oh and stop giving aid to India

Happiness can be cheap.

Indeed. Few go into the public sector to have an outrageous lifestyle (except politicians), they go in to do a service (teachers, nurses, doctors) - and we should support them. Not keep beating them down.

Oh and stop giving aids to India

I assume that was a typo and fixed it. Anything else would have been stupid

from a curiosity perspective, what would happen if the government forced the changes through? Is there a (legal) limit to how long a strike can last? obviously most people wouldn't have the money to keep it going particularly long, if its unpaid time?

obviously most people wouldn't have the money to keep it going particularly long, if its unpaid time?

Interesting question.

I wonder how long the country would keep going with all the schools shut?

jimster - Member
I'm in the private sector, the wife's works in the Public sector, she's not striking but they have been told if you go out your position is in jeapordy when the next round of job cuts take place in the new year.

Nothing like a good bit of black-mail to prevent the democratic to air your views

Is that even legal? Presumably she has told her union rep...?

The union reps at her office are friendly with the management, so pointless really.

I genuinely wouldn't put it past this lot to be trying to provoke the kind of entrenched, and violent confrontation they had with the miners in the 80's. Lets not forget, it did them a lot of good! Though everyone else suffered

I could see them, after a suitable period of confrontation, pulling a stunt like finding every striker in breach of contract, sacking them, then offering them re-negotiated contracts on massively reduced terms.
All Tories are evil. FACT!

I could see them, after a suitable period of confrontation, pulling a stunt like finding every striker in breach of contract, sacking them, then offering them re-negotiated contracts on massively reduced terms.

Already being pulled - funny how it's not being reported by the media though.

She was also told the other day that if they did not accept the new terms, then their contract would be removed, terms re-written anyway, and they'd have to reapply for their jobs. Doesn't exactly sound like negotiation by the Tories to me.

5thElefant - Member

I'll work well into my 70s at the very least. Regardless of whether I have to. [b]What else is there to do?[/b]

on this site? IMO you are either Jedis understudy or lying or just lack imagination.

Hopefully, when the posturing is over, attention will come back to the "real" pension problem in the UK.

The UK has a workforce of 29 million people. Some 23 million of these are employed in the private sector. [b]Of these, only 3.2 million contribute to a workplace pension scheme that also includes a contribution from their employer. [/b]The number of people actively saving in company pension schemes in the private sector has almost halved since 1991. (source: BBC today).

Pension [b]education[/b] for the majority of the UK's workforce should be the government's priority.

True - but how many people can actually afford to put money into a pension? I know I can't.

With the petrol prices, energy companies hiking up rates etc. There's just nothing left to fund a pension at the end of the month.

Unfitgeezer, what charity is it, and how can we help to donate or support it?

I'm always surprised people think there is still such a thing as a job for life, and expect to stay in the same place. The thought of still working in my industry / role in 25 years time scares the hell out of me, I've already got a plan on where I want to be in 5-10 years.

On the pension side, I'm making arrangements so my income stream won't be based from a pension pot where the age I qualify or how it is invested is controlled by someone else. I want to have a degree of financial freedom (not that it will be a big pot of money) to decide when and how I use my money. A pension is great but other assets and financial vehicles are much better.

On the strike side - if changes need to be made then you have to accept them, look at those who have been made redundant, had a wage cut or seen their job roles change in the private sector.

You cheese is moving - find a new one!!!

On the strike side - if changes need to be made then you have to accept them

Clearly not.