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Sorry, trying again. ANyone have any real world experience of the BMW iX? Reviews say great car but range is pretty poor at sub 200 in the colder months? These tests are generally extrapolations so wanted to know how people are finding these cars in use?
Tried to get a model Y and for some reaosn I'm looking at 1300 insurance minimum!
Tried to get a model Y and for some reaosn I’m looking at 1300 insurance minimum!
I thin it's because insurance companies are scared of high cost of fixing and liability so they are apparently much more likely to write them off.
@molgrips - that's exactly what it is. Tesla are very costly to repair. My Model S was in the same insurance category as an Aston Martin!
Leaf Drivers - what do you think of it? I currently drive a company XC40 recharge but its probably going in a few months as i'm looking to change jobs and the new role won't have a car. The new job will require a 130mile round trip twice a week, and whilst i could do it by train its £30 per day, compared to £3-5 or something in an electric car.
I've been looking at used Leafs, in particular the 62kWh variant, but i know nothing about CHAdeMO charging - is this old tech?
I've already got a OHME charger installed for home charging duties.
If the Leaf is not a good choice what else should i look it?
Leaning toward buying something for £15-£18k rather than leasing due to my planned annual mileage (20k)
Some genius at tesla decided to make the battery part of the structure of the car. So if there is an accident, chances are the battery will be done which means car gets written off.
Idiotic move, apparently there are a whole load of them having to be stored as they are uneconomical to repair and no one can recycle them
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a42709679/tesla-insurance-fixes-expense/
Leaf Drivers – what do you think of it?
I just got a Leaf 40kWh, solely because it's cheap, and that is the main benefit of a Leaf. Cheaper than an ICE car simply to buy, these days, never mind run. ChaDEMO is old tech yes, although there are plenty available.
However I bought mine because it was £9k. If I had your sort of money I would absolutely not get one, I would get something from Hyundai instead, like an 38.3kWh Ioniq EV (not Ioniq 5, the older one). It is significantly more efficient, has really good battery cooling tech, they all have heat pumps and a CCS connector. The quoted range is 192 miles and this is actually achievable. A 130 mile trip is guaranteed to be doable in all weathers unless you drive it flat out. For that money you could get a Premium SE which has leather and cooled seats (ooh). They have great battery management (liquid cooling) so I would not worry about higher mileage too much.
The other thing I would consider would be the Hyundai Kona long range. Slightly less efficient than the Ioniq EV but there's a 62kWh battery option, for about 280 miles of range. It charges slightly quicker too if you need it. They are available in that price range.
I would definitely get a car with a heat pump to make life more consistent and predictable. All Ioniq EV 38kWh cars have one, but not all Konas do. It doesn't always say, if it's a standard fitting, but you can identify it easily from the bundle of pipes and valves under the bonnet if you get a picture.
Idiotic move,
using a large, strong thing you have to carry around as part of a car structure is a smart move, it reduces weight, cost and is generally smart engineering. You couldn't do is with ICE cars as all the heavy bits (engine, gearbox) wobbled around too much, but it will likely be how all future electric cars are made
Found another free charger in Ayr and added 17kwh. Almost halved the cost of the expensive instavolt charger I used in Dumfries.
What he said. One thing that's changed with Teslas is they've progressively changed the subframe design to be made of less and less parts, and that includes the battery cost. It takes Audi/VW 200 parts to do what Tesla can do with three (apparently) via their big f-off 'gigapress' , and that, and similar is a big reason they've been able to progressively reduce the price and stay profitable
using a large, strong thing you have to carry around as part of a car structure is a smart move, it reduces weight, cost and is generally smart engineering. You couldn’t do is with ICE cars as all the heavy bits (engine, gearbox) wobbled around too much,
there are quite a few cars where the power train is structural. Mainly race cars or tractors mind.
Uk motorway charging is a LOT more than in France! I was paying 0.4-0.5€ per KW there and it’s £0.70+ here it seems.
Uk motorway charging is a LOT more than in France! I was paying 0.4-0.5€ per KW there and it’s £0.70+ here it seems.
Unless you’re driving a Tesla, in which case it’s about 35p per kWh. Another reason it’s hard to break the Tesla habit once you’ve got one.
I'm glad I couldn't afford a model 3. I don't want to have to face the fact that there are benefits.
using a large, strong thing you have to carry around as part of a car structure is a smart move
As long as you want to sell more cars. Less so if you want to make them repairable.
I'm sure you won't mind your insurance going up thanks to this "smart" engineering.
Less so if you want to make them repairable.
I'm pretty sure they are repairable. Not on your driveway, perhaps, but that's the thing. Getting it out of the car (and they do come out) is never going to be easy. But it will be a lot easier in the future as people understand how to fix them. There will be a big pile of slightly damaged cars and someone will work out how to fix and certify them so they can be sold.
Sure they will.
Are you aware how utterly opposed to repair Tesla are? They don't want them to be fixed and throw as many obstacles as possible in the way to discourage people from doing so. A car that's locked out the network (no updates, no fast charging) isn't going to be worth a lot. You think Cat N/D is worthless now wait till these become commonplace.
I won't be holding my breath for right to repair legislation to turn up here any time soon either.
Maybe on other brands though, back street battery refurbs will definitely be a thing.
As long as you want to sell more cars. Less so if you want to make them repairable.
I’m sure you won’t mind your insurance going up thanks to this “smart” engineering.
But what percentage of Tesla's sold have been written off due to a damaged battery thanks to their sub-frame design? I'd wager it's very low, if so given the benefits of the design I'd say it's an OK compromise. I'd also imagine a fair percentage of non Tesla EVs that have a big enough shunt (where the impact would write off a Tesla) probably get written off themselves (e.g. through chassis damage)
Just doing my first long range trip in the Model 3. Incredibly simple as the car simply added in a suitable charging point on the way home, cost is only 34p per kWh which is ?half the price of other chargers especially on motorways. Car knows exactly how long I need to charge before carrying on, and I can watch Netflix whilst it does so!
Sensible driving gave a usable range of 320 miles, and the more time goes on the more I find that driving sensibly to maximise range makes for much less stressful driving.
Same services (Hopwood) - Tesla 34p/kwh. Gridserve 69p/kwh. Crazy difference in cost.
I’d also imagine a fair percentage of non Tesla EVs that have a big enough shunt
You don't even need that big of a shunt. I had a look at Cat S write-offs, and I went to EV breakers to find a wheel arch lining for my new Leaf. There are loads of cars with what looks like fairly simple damage in the pictures that are being written off. It's an EV problem not a Tesla-specific one, and it needs looking at.
Interestingly there were very few Telsas in the lightly bashed up cars I was looking at.
I find that driving sensibly to maximise range makes for much less stressful driving.
This was the case when maximising fuel economy in an ICE car too, I'm glad people are finally realising it 🙂 It'll make everyone's lives better.
it does doesnt it, sitting at top end speeds it pretty stressful (even if you dont feel it at the time) and typically doesnt make much material difference to you arrival time.
knock it down a little and its a much more pleasant experience, especially if you are using active cruise control.
drive a tad slow.
Leaf Drivers – what do you think of it?
Oh yeah one more thing @freeagent - many cars except the most recent models don't have telescopic steering wheels, which irritates me. I can get a comfortable position if I modify what I normally like, but it's annoying nonetheless.
But there are still other reasons why I wouldn't buy one given the choice 🙂
sitting at top end speeds it pretty stressful (even if you dont feel it at the time) and typically doesnt make much material difference to you arrival time.
Also makes everyone else's life stressful. Even if you are driving relaxed, and there's a constant stream of nobbers bombing along at 90 hassling people out of the way then it's unpleasant for you.
Pleased to see you found an EV in budget and on first experiences it seems a good buy, Molgrips. Hopefully it'll make other two-car households on here think seriously about a second-hand EV as the second car. When we bought our first Zoé six years ago we kept the ICE on the basis that one car between three of was sometimes an expensive hassle and it was as cheap to keep the ICE as to rent as needed. The ICE did just 2000km between insurance renewals last year, mainly carrying building materials and for junior's ski work.
When the EV second car becomes the main car because it's cheap to run and everyone loves it.
Yeah it is a good buy, assuming the battery is not knackered from having been a taxi. All indications suggest it's not - but I haven't put LeafSpy on it yet.
If I'd have had more money I would have bought a better EV and sold the ICE, probably. I did a thorough spreadsheet analysis and a second car was still the cheaper way to achieve what we want. But we are still paying a lot to have a diesel sitting on the drive most of the time. And it's all down to the requirement to tow the caravan. However t turns out I can hire a tow vehicle (actually a pickup truck...!!) for two weeks for £1200, which would actually work out cheaper on a yearly basis. That does however remove our ability to go away for random weekends, which we do occasionally do.
@freeagent I've had a 62kwh Leaf for 18 months or so. As molgrips says, how good they are is relative - as a cheap buy they're pretty good IMO. Ours was new but I'd looked at most new hatchbacks available at the time and it rode better and had a bigger battery than the Zoe, the Stellantis stuff (Corsa, e208, etc) and the deal on offer was much better than those too.
It can feel a bit dated but buttons for climate control etc are no bad thing. It's well built, big boot, has very few issues and the powertrain is probably the best understood for third-party repairs. Tekna or one of the lower ones specced with Propilot gets you a very good cruise/lanekeeping system for relaxed motorway trips. CHAdeMO has definitely lost out to CCS but there are loads of cars out there with it (Leaf was still the 5th best selling EV last year, 4th before that), and almost all charging sites have it, a great many of which put it on every rapid charger. I do 300-400 mile round trips for work every month or so and have no problems charging along the way.
Thing is for £18k used there's quite a few other good options getting down there now - eNiro, Kona, Soul give you more range and CCS (and a longer warranty). The Ioniq is efficiency king, well specced and also great on range, CCS, good warranty. MG5 long range too if you want an estate (albeit with very staid looks).
and had a bigger battery than the Zoe
The Zoé has a smaller battery at 52kWh but a better range, 395km WLTP for the Zoé and 385km for the Leaf.
But yes, the Leaf is something of a second-hand bargain and has more space.
MG5 long range too if you want an estate
I couldn't bring myself to drive an MG5 if it were free in the current geopolitical climate. South Korean maybe, Chinese, Russian no way.
Ioniq EV spec is good. Most cars are 'Premium' which gives you pretty much everything - lane keep assist, auto dimming mirror and lights, auto cruise, heat pump.
Another free charge of 20.4kwh at Dawyck botanical gardens near an unknown town called Peebles. 😉
<p>Has anyone used the free charge points at Coed-y-Brenin? I just wondered if they were likely to be OK/ICE'd/busy on a Friday ? Where in the car park are they located?</p>
Thanks for the feedback on the Leaf guys - i'd been also looking at the Kona long-range which although at the top end of my potential budget looks pretty good. i'm 6-9 months away from needing to choose so got time on my side to do some research.
Yeah go and test drive them, including the Leaf. It is nicer inside than either Hyundai and it doesn't bong incessantly for every little thing, which may be a benefit for you.
Not sure if this has been covered, but if buying second hand EV (say 2-3 years old) don't you worry about remaining battery warranty and health when the times comes to sell on?
I'm leasing an id3 currently (good car but not great service from VW so far). I'd like to buy a second hand one for around £18-20k when the lease is up but I worry about losing a lot of value or being unable to sell on after a few years as the battery warranty is only 8 years :-/
Yeah go and test drive them, including the Leaf. It is nicer inside than either Hyundai and it doesn’t bong incessantly for every little thing, which may be a benefit for you.
My current XC40 recharge Bongs and chimes at every event - i've never been in a car like it. Change lanes without indicating? it thinks you're falling asleep.. Wasp fly's past the back of the car whilst reversing - it slams the brakes on..
Change lanes without indicating? it thinks you’re falling asleep
That's ok, because you might be, and it might save your life. I'm talking about stuff like bing, you unplugged the charging cable. Bong charging has been interrupted - well obviously - all whilst driving up the road.. even though the car will not let you drive away when the cable's plugged in, so the fact I'm driving implies both those other things so there's absolutely NO NEED to alert me to any of this. Completely useless bongs of no value.
Not sure if this has been covered, but if buying second hand EV (say 2-3 years old) don’t you worry about remaining battery warranty and health when the times comes to sell on?
I thought about this when I bought the 2.5 year old Corsa e.
The manufacturer warranty is up after 3 years and the battery is around 7 or more miles than I'll probably reach.
I intend on keeping the car until beyond 2030 so both warranties will be long gone.
I reckon battery replacement/repackaging options will be easier and cheaper to come by by the end of the decade.
Will the car ever become a cheap run around given its initial cost to me? Probably not in the same terms as the car that it replaced but it might to some one else who is willing to buy it off me 3rd hand and around 10 years old with a reduced range good enough for city driving?
Thinking about it, if I drive it until the car rusts and becomes inoperable maybe 2040 I'll still be happy with it if it is cheap to run up till that point. 🤔
@mulv1976 I think the battery life thing has been substantially overblown, in reality they really don't lose that much over 10y and more. Well, that's what I choose to believe anyway 🙂 Even if my range went down by 10%, it would still be perfectly usable. 20%, even.
Not sure if this has been covered, but if buying second hand EV (say 2-3 years old) don’t you worry about remaining battery warranty and health when the times comes to sell on?
Well, it is what it is. Some cars will prove to be better than others, but most new cars will probably be fine. You will lose money, of course as with any car. Hyundai look to be really good for battery degradation, and we know that Nissan are about the worst because of their passive battery cooling. But even those aren't too bad. Only the first couple of years are really bad, not least because they had crap range from new. I think 2011-2013 are the worst because they get a software update which limits charging speed when hot, and in the 2018+ cars (new shape) there are some more changes that help. But even then, first gen cars seem to be holding some value and you can still spend £7-8k on one. I wouldn't, but you can. That's the main reason I considered a Zoe, they have always had battery cooling, and why I stretched to a 2nd gen Leaf because they look after their battery better.
I'm not sure many buyers know these things though, at least not at the moment.
There will be a strong market for runarounds that are cheap to run, where people only need 20 miles of range, so I would imagine prices will drop to that point and then hold up well. Because even if a battery is degrated the rest of the car should be better than a cheap old EV - it'll always start, it'll always be quiet and smooth, there'll be no clutch problems or it'll never be running rich etc etc.
Change lanes without indicating?
I'd prefer it if you did indicate, thanks. A nudge in that direction seems very helpful. Mind you, I do switch that stuff off myself unless on motorways.
I’d prefer it if you did indicate, thanks.
It does help train you to indicate at all times just to get rid of the noise!
If I was getting an EV would certainly be second hand the depreciation of EV's is only going to get worst with new manufacturers coming on board. I would never buy only lease.
It is encouraging to see that 2nd hand EV's are becoming more affordable, but there is still a huge premium on new ones, compared to their ICE equivalents. Given that the majority of new cars are 'sold' on some form of PCP or lease, the differential in monthly payments of usually a few hundred pounds plus is unlikely to be recovered in fuel cost savings.
We will be changing my wife's car next year, when it's 3 and a bit years old, currently on a 4 year PCP, it's a 1l 3cyl petrol Audi Q2, so a nice car, and was a significant step up from her previous petrol Kia Soul. The Soul was a great car, and ticked a lot of the boxes, but looking at the Soul EV, as an example, for next year, for an equivalent type spec the rrp is around 15k more than a new Q2, so the monthly payments are about £250 or so more than we currently pay (so more than double)
Fuel savings (we are on IO and have a charger etc as I have an i4) will likely be just under £100 a month, so part way closes the gap.
So in our case certainly, we won't be making that switch until the monthly cost differential comes down a chunk more.
My i4 is on salary sacrifice, so a different financial model entirely, which is cost beneficial in our situation compared to previous diesel Audi Q5.
I would never buy only lease.
Leasing is a mug's game, unless you simply must have a brand new car all the time - or someone else is paying. You'll spend far more than the depreciation and have nothing to show for it.
And depreciation works both ways. If prices hadn't dropped so much, there's no way we could have afforded an EV and we'd be burning diesel. I expect prices at the bottom to stabilise as cars enter the 'runaround' category which has a different demand to the 'expensive new' cateogry.
Leasing is a mug’s game, unless you simply must have a brand new car all the time – or someone else is paying. You’ll spend far more than the depreciation and have nothing to show for it.
Though I'd never lease again (for a variety of reasons..I prefer to own!) we had a Skoda Yeti fancy pants bells and whistles, that cost us £5k over the 2 year lease (all servicing/tax included) and that car dropped at least £8-10k in depreciation!)...
DrP
Buying new is also a mug's game!
We're paying less on the loan for our Leaf than we were paying on the lease for the Hyundai so it's like leasing from the bank, except I can sell it and pay off at any time*. All we have to do is keep up the payments for 5 years and we'll have a free car!
* hopefully - this is the gamble, although it seems to be paying off so far since we bought cheap. If we were to 'cancel the lease' on the Merc we'd get a £3k bonus for doing it 🙂
I prefer leasing (PCP) a car is just a tool for me, no concerns about depreciation or in fact anything. It's also nice to keep my tax-free allowance which the company car used to eat all up. The savings have been quite significant.