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Buying new is also a mug’s game!
I agree...but others may want a new car (they ARE nicer..you get to choose colour etc..). At the time my wife (at the time!) wanted a new white yeti..seemed a reasonable way of doing it...
Meh... I've bought a wheelset that cost more than my current 07 Skoda octavia... choices innit!
DrP
I was looking at newer EV options then I realised that £30,000 is actually a hell of a lot of money.
i want an EV6 GT...
£60k.
I don't want it that much 😀
DrP
do most people even look at the 'rrp' cost anymore ? Main dealers seem to talk in monthly payments as default and I think this is the common mindset given that the majority use PCP or lease as their way of having a newish car nowadays.
Is car 'ownership' not becoming a thing of the past for the majority ?
Apologies if this has been posted, I haven't read all 112 pages.
Is car ‘ownership’ not becoming a thing of the past for the majority ?
You generally only lease new cars. Given the amount of cars > 3 years old on the road, I'd say it's not the majority. However, I do think that leasing is the most common way for new cars to be bought.
Seeing as we're doing buying vs. leasing etc, does anyone want to sanity check my potential purchase 🙂
Situation is we currently have one car (Petrol Octavia VRS as per STW requirements), but my wife is changing jobs which will mean a switch from commuting via train into London 1-2 days per week to driving to work (likely 2 days a week). I'm also in the office 2 days a week so it's possible, as we only both need to be in 2 days a week, that we can make it work with one car still, but even now it quite often inconvenient to not have the flexibility of two cars when eg. the kids need to be in two places at once.
I'm think of an e208*, couple of years old for ~£16,000. Would require a loan which, if over 5 years, would be ~£310 per month. That seems to be more sensible than a lease on a new one, as to get close to that monthly payment the lease would need to be over 4 yrs, which scares me versus the flexibility of flog car and pay off loan if the situation changes. Also having 'something' after 4/5 years versus 'nothing' is a big perceived benefit to my simple brain - maybe I'm missing something though?
*subject to me actually sitting one and checking the 'looking over mini-steering wheel at dials' thing is not going to drive me mad. It it does then would likely go for an eCorsa instead.
Leaf was the first new car I'd bought, before that it was four 2-year lease deals on the trot, I'd start shopping around 6-8 months out and jump on a good offer for a car I liked. Usually well under £300pm, low deposit, and less expensive than the depreciation. Last couple were a Golf GTE (wasn't sure how well the PHEV complexity would hold up long term, and ultimately wanted a BEV) then an eGolf (not the greatest BEV but it was a cheap way to try it). Then covid happened and most of the cheap offers just dried up. It's always been a relatively expensive way to do it if you want a specific model rather than cruising the offers and more so if you want to option it up.
Leaf is also well under £300pm on PCP but at least I can buy it for £14k at the end if I want to. Have been saving separately to cover that so it'll be owned outright at 4 years old.
Apologies if this has been posted
I like that guy. Life goals though, eh?
maybe I’m missing something though?
No, not really. The same logic I went through, it's by far the best option IMO. You get flexibility, you end up spending less because someone else's lease payments have already paid off the depreciation, and you own the car at the end for a final payment of £0. If you are doing low mileage it will still be nice and tidy when you own it outright at 6 years old and you'll be free of payments.
However, I do think that leasing is the most common way for new cars to be bought.
is that because it’s the best way to buy, or because it’s easier than finding a big wedge of cash up front to buy outright.
Interesting read through this thread - thanks to all who've contributed, it's a really useful resource.
We've just had a charge point installed at the office and I'm doing some idle man-maths on an old, old EV purely for the commute.
Roughly 20 miles each way so I wouldn't need a big range, but some of the horror stories seem to suggest even that might be ambitious on a 10 year old EV in winter.
For comparison, I'm getting about 52 mpg in my wee diesel Citan van. Logic being, replacing the daily grind miles with an old beater EV means way less miles on the van, prolonging the life of the wee Frenchie engine and maybe even save a few quid in the process.
AutoTrader is awash with cheap Leafs and such-like. What's the general consensus from those what have dabbled with such a plan? Did it pay off, was it an endless cash-pit, did you get stuck 7 miles from home when the battery conked out?
The van would be reserved for rare longer trips and bike duties only.
A barely used 1 yr old Honda E can be had for about £19k at the moment, if the budget will stretch that far (sorry, haven't read back OP).
Was talking to a client earlier whose brother has a Vauxhall (Astra-sized) EV, and in winter he can't do the ~150 miles home from London on a full charge, despite a claimed range of ~200 miles.
I like that guy. Life goals though, eh?
I like him too - his YouTube channel is one of the few I subscribe too (more for tech than cars though). I've never heard Rimac pronounced like that though - I thought it was a hard C at the end?
This is impressive if you live in Birmingham.
Buying new is also a mug’s game!
Depends on the market.
Dacia Lodgy bought 2012 with a five year service pack for <13000e, currently selling privately for around 6000e with twice the mileage of mine. No big bils in all that time. Now find me a lease at less than 53e a month or even a second-hand car that will cost less than that per month to own.
When you buy a new car you get everything new and look forward to five years of low bills, low hassle and the guarantee if anything does go wrong. Drive as many miles as you want or don't want, no worries about bills when you hand it back. With an EV there's the bonus of having 100% of battery capacity and knowing the battery history.
I'll let you know how it goes with the Zoé, after 3.5 years the lease price over the period would have been almost identical to the depreciation, from here on in it gets cheaper but that's normal because it's now an older car than a lease would be.
Leasing is a mug’s game, unless you simply must have a brand new car all the time – or someone else is paying. You’ll spend far more than the depreciation and have nothing to show for it.
I'm not so sure about that, it depends on how much you are paying, how many miles you do and whether you want the security of a new car with tyres, servicing, breakdown etc covered. Mine is a company car and £300 per month (paid by my business so tax deductable), I pay BIK which is only 2%. New, my ID3 would have been £35k, they are now worth about £18-20k, so the lease cost has easily covered the depreciation, plus that includes tyres and services. I'll likely be buying second hand next time though...
I’m not so sure about that, it depends on how much you are paying, how many miles you do and whether you want the security of a new car with tyres, servicing, breakdown etc covered.
Not all leases include the maintenance etc (ours didn't) and you can also buy all inclusive maintenance deals for your own car.
Company car schemes specifically for EVs with the minimal BiK are a different ballgame though. I was talking about private leasing.
Mine is a company car and £300
My Leaf is costing me about £160 a month, with insurance on top. Servicing is minimal. And in 5 years' time I'll still have it (hopefully!) and be paying nothing.
Dacia Lodgy bought 2012 with a five year service pack for <13000e, currently selling privately for around 6000e with twice the mileage of mine.
You bought a new Dacia - if you'd have bought a 1 year old one, you'd have saved even more money. And you'd own a 12 year old car instead of an 11 year old car which essentially is the same thing at this point.
Company car schemes specifically for EVs with the minimal BiK are a different ballgame though
this. I wonder what % of new EVs are now financed this way. Mine is and it's a much more affordable option than my previous personal PCP. I get a car allowance.
The results are in from the last road trip. Totals: 580 miles / 37mph average / 4.3mi/kWh.
Last leg was 160 miles / 48mph average / 4.0mi/kwh A7, M6, M65, 10 miles minor roads.
Happy with the numbers. The first 100 miles on the A7 and M6 to Killington services was pretty accurate on the range. I topped up to 93 miles range for the final 65 and made it home with 23 miles remaining. Nearer 65/70mph along the last stretch of motorway.
Corsa e was enjoyable. Not too complicated with the buttons. Only ones on the steering wheel I used the most was the volume control and the speed limiter/cruise control.
Not too shabby. How many stops all in?
EV6 Gt line - recently travelled to Looe from North Midlands. Stopped once on the way down and added 50Kw (£40) as I had to go to the Newlyn and then the Minack theatre first and didn't want to be looking for a charger first thing next morning or even on the Minack to looe leg of the trip. Stopped for 21minutes nr. Bodmin, all chargers were functional. Travelled 360 miles that day and finished at the site in Looe with 120 miles range.
Once on site there was a 7kwh charger available which did the job every night ready for the adventures next morning. In theory it should have cost £52 on site but the lovely people at Podpoint didn't take a penny. Happy with that.
In total I travelled 1200 miles including the return leg a week later for less than £100.
All of the M5 was done at 65mph, then Cornwall was a mix of 60-70 A30,A38,A39,A390 and plenty of b roads.
I'd have thought that cost was similar to petrol/diesel if not better.
EDIT - forgot to include the cost of filling the battery on my return 60kw@7.5p = £4.50
I've found that cost when rapid charging without a discount card is more than diesel, for me.
Not too shabby. How many stops all in?
6.
The motorway stop on the return leg was 15 minutes charging and 5 minutes exiting and rejoining the motorway. Sat in the car as only a short stop.
The slow charging free stops were all combined with something else like sightseeing.
The Instavolt at Dumfries we had some lunch whilst charging.
1 slow charge session in Selkirk wasn't essential but I had just missed out on the fast charger so opted for the slow version for 40 minutes. Read the internet.
1 fast charge this morning 20 minutes at the fast charger in Selkirk that I missed out on yesterday, went to the shop to buy some food.
There wasn't any range anxiety and the 50kwh of free energy that I was able to gain from charge place Scotland was a bonus.
Yeah. It's not always a case of running low then stopping and waiting to fill up like you would petrol. You can stop for all sorts of things and add a few miles whenever. You also don't have to be empty.
There needs to be some more regulation on charging costs especially at motorway services. It’s only as expensive as fuel because companies are choosing to sell for more than double the wholesale cost. I don’t buy the setup cost as an excuse because these will be long term earners for the companies.
Here are most of the fine details regarding my charging.
£0.30/KW at the charge point Scotland fast charger was reasonable. Equals 7.5p/mi which is probably half of the alternative diesel cost per mile.
I paid £0.69/KW at gridserve and £0.75/KW at instavolt. Would be better if they matched Tesla/council/government prices or at least had variable pricing depending on grid costs. 🤔
Wheres the charger on New Road? Is that the one in the island next to the wee roundabout? That spot always looks rammed, I assumed (wrongly) that one would be a no go.
It’s only as expensive as fuel because companies are choosing to sell for more than double the wholesale cost. I don’t buy the setup cost as an excuse because these will be long term earners for the companies.
The alternative argument is that we're funding the expansion of the network whilst still overall paying a lot less on fuel month-by-month. Maybe.
Wheres the charger on New Road?
Yes it's on a small free carpark with 2 slow chargers to the left of the entrance and faster chargers over to the right near the junction. On the CP Scotland app it pinned the charging down a street opposite so I didn't find it first time.
I was unable to access the fast charger on that carpark as one port was being used and the lead was too short. I did see an ev park across the hatched area to make the cable reach, which I was unwilling to do.
There were 3 Corsa e cars including mine in the area, one of which was charging an hour before I arrived and still there after I left. No time limit on the charger so I guess this will happen daily.
The high price of fast charging (especially away from motorways) seems self defeating to me.
There are two fast chargers in a retail park near me and two in a local pub carpark. I've rarely seen them used. Nobody local is going to use them at twice the price of charging at home and, although they are on the A65 - so route to Lakes/M6 to Scotland from Leeds I'm not sure there are far enough out from Leeds to pick up much trade
I can't see that they will ever cover off the capital costs of the equipment/installation or even the running costs
If the unit cost was a lot more sensible people may use them for topping up when shopping/getting lunch
It’s not twice the price of charging at home it’s 10 times the price if you’re on an EV tariff.
Tesla have invested massively in a Network that makes their cars eminently practical to drive long distances and internationally without having to constantly plan ahead. I don’t see an excuse for a 100% difference in price between Tesla chargers, which are not only cheaper but often faster and integrate perfectly with the car, and other chargers often in the same place which are typically slower, a pain to use and stupidly expensive. Imagine a motorway service station with two fuel stations, one of which was brand new but twice the price.
Rapid charging needs to be regulated as it’s rapidly becoming the Wild West with people charging whatever they want and people having to pay as there’s often little choice. Like trading posts along the old settler trails in America and the Middle East, whomever sets up first, gets to dictate what people MUST pay to continue their journey.
…had the government been even slightly smart about this, they could’ve rolled out an integrated UK infrastructure and started to recoup some of the lost tax revenue from fuel duty with UK National rates for everyone.
Exactly. The government planning has been shite. Bit like the other day when they tried to sell contracts for wind farms that were impossible to make a profit from. Like you say they will need to recoup fuel tax from somewhere and like usual they made a bold plan to stop ICE cars being made very soon, and then just assumed that the market would sort itself out rather than making a plan to make it happen in the right way.
Like you say, the companies installing chargers have drivers over the barrel right now. Eventually competition will drive prices down but it could have been organised and regulated a whole lot better.
It’s only as expensive as fuel because companies are choosing to sell for more than double the wholesale cost.
Tesla 250kW chargers: 26p/kWh
Everyone else: 79p/kWh (actually 92p/kWh due to the metering).
While I'm not a huge fan of Tesla Superchargers being open to all EVs due to the loss of multiple spaces per car, I think it's going to be the only way to force prices down among Gridserve / Osprey / Instavolt etc.
There's no excuse. Is it still a cartel if it's unofficial?
Tesla 250kW chargers: 26p/kWh
Everyone else: 79p/kWh (actually 92p/kWh due to the metering).
and Intelligent Octopus home charging 7.5p/kWh - this is where the real differential is for those who have home chargers. I’ve had my EV for about 6 weeks and 1500 miles so far, not yet done a journey over 200 miles and not yet had to charge away from home.
I top it up overnight when it gets down to around 50 - 60%, which with about 85kWh of useable battery means putting in around 40kWh of charge which fits the cheap tariff window.
Rapid charging needs to be regulated as it’s rapidly becoming the Wild West with people charging whatever they want and people having to pay as there’s often little choice.
I manage a charging network and we're making very little on it. Utilisation might change the economics for motorway chargers.
I manage a charging network and we’re making very little on it. Utilisation might change the economics for motorway chargers.
I think people forget the huge amount of investment that goes into charging networks, which has to be recouped. If we want electricity to be cheap then the networks will need a lot more subsidy to be viable. Nationalisation even, maybe.
Ok so how are Tesla managing to be half the price? Are they subsidising it from sales or just have the advantage of time, and building their network when it was cheaper to do so? The price differential is not a bit, it is massive.
If the energy density of batteries and the efficiency of motors increases over the next decade then the range of cars will increase and the reliance on a charging network will decrease for those who can afford the better tech and have their own home chargers.
So wouldn't it be better for the current providers of fast DC charging to make it so cheap to charge that it would make petrol and diesel prices seem expensive? More people might consider electric cars even if they didn't have home charging.
I doubt I'll see another fast DC charger for another few months? Maybe 3 times between now and Xmas and then it'll only be a small top up to get me home.
I’ve only charged away from home once in 9 months but even so charging prices are a common argument that put people off buying EVs. Giles Coren’s vitriolic article that was mainly a good reason not to buy a Jaguar EV made a big thing of charging costs, even more relevant for him since he made the curious choice to buy one despite not having gone charging.
Guessing Tesla chargers are either a loss leader for the car company or maybe even just cost neutral. Ionity &al have to make a profit.
Anyway it's somewhat cheaper if you subscribe. What's the cheapest you can get it for non Tesla drivers?
The problem with that is only a few of them are currently available for non-Teslas. Not sure how much more expensive they are.
Ok so how are Tesla managing to be half the price?
Chargepoint Scotland still 30p / kWh, isn’t it? I believe that Tesla expect their pricing to cover running costs and expansion of the network but doubt they make a profit on it.
They also have time of use pricing. Whether this is because they pay more for energy at these times or it’s to discourage long stays, I don’t know.
I had cheap off peak charging at a York hyperhub, Poppleton? Below 30p/KW. Earlier in the day it was high 40's/p/KW. BP pulse but pricing controlled by the council.
CP Scotland was 30p and they had a 45 minute limit on the fast charger with overstay charges.