Forum menu
It makes me chuckle that a Smart car is faster (accelerating) than the entry level (£90k) , and POSSIBLY the next level Porche Taycan!!!
Yep - but the entry level [Porsche] Taycan is RWD and can't get the power down that well.... next up is the 4S which is AWD does 0-60 in 3.5.
Frankly they're all fast but it's not just about speed is it?!
Which would you rather be in? If I was spending £45k I'd rather buy an 18 month old Taycan with 15k on the clock.
I think you’d rather an ICE @sharkbait. Unless you’ve checked what Porsche will do if your Taycan battery fails in twenty years time?
Taycan 4s, AWD, is 0-60 of 3.7, so the same!
Anyway, my comment wasn't about which is more luxury etc etc (obvs the porche), but that nowadays, with EV power, you could out 'drag race' a high spec Porche in a basic(ish) family car!
No need to mod, boost the turbo, or remap!
Sorry that was lost on you!
DrP
Taycan 4s, AWD, is 0-60 of 3.7, so the same!
3.5s with Launch Control
nowadays, with EV power, you could out ‘drag race’ a high spec Porche in a basic(ish) family car No need to mod, boost the turbo, or remap!
You make that sound like the Taycan is an ICE but they're both electric soooo [shrugs].
The base Taycan is hardly 'high spec' - hence why it's the 'base' model!
Ah, yes, I was looking at the 0-62 times...
You make that sound like the Taycan is an ICE but they’re both electric soooo [shrugs].
Not really my intention - historically the powerful and fast [ICE] engines really were 'reserved' for supercars or highly modified versions of basic family cars (M5, RS6 etc)...
As a not - Deadlydarcey's Smart car will out accelerate all 718 Cayman & 718 Boxster, all Cayenne ranges, many 911s etc etc... Even the highest spec/trim..
Nowadays you can get supercar acceleration in a basic family car (thinking P2, brabus smart, tesla M3 DM etc) that you can get on salary sacrifice etc etc...
I can't recall my dad saying "son, my Volvo could out accelerate that Ferrari"
Anyway.. I'msure you get where I'm coming from (that EV motors can now be whacked into any old car, and make them go fast)
DrP
Without wishing to probe too deeply into anybody else's finances, I'm also interested in how these salary sacrifice schemes work out overall.
I'm a simple fellow and have always just bought whatever I can comfortably afford with what I have in the bank. Originally that was old bangers, more recently it's been new cars, but always with an eye on the total cost and what else I could do with that money.
In principle a salary sacrifice scheme sounds like a great deal. Buy a car with your pre-tax salary. Sounds great. But when I try to look a bit closer it seems that you are not buying the whole car with you pre-tax salary at all as there is usually a deposit and a final lump sum to pay in order to actually own the car. So really you're just getting a discount on the depreciation, which for EVs is still pretty steep.
Take the Smart # 1 Brabus mentioned above. You can pick up a one year old model with around 10k on the clock for around £27k. What would the total price of buying one outright on a salary sacrifice scheme be?
Take the Smart # 1 Brabus mentioned above. You can pick up a one year old model with around 10k on the clock for around £27k. What would the total price of buying one outright on a salary sacrifice scheme be?
I view any money spent on a car as money down the drain, that is rather not spend. If I’m going to have car, then I’d like a nice one please. Even if I have to burst into tears every time I see Nige pull alongside me in his Taycan.
The Smart Brabus is a pre-registered sat-in-a-UK port-somewhere car so is being offered at a good discount. The Lease is around £420 on a 1+36 contract. No, I won’t own it. My employer will pay the lease and insurance, apply all discounts and I end up with a net deduction of around £215 plus insurance (which I also pay before tax, etc) but will be around £35 pm.
split between mrs dd and me, that’s not much more than £100 per month each to have a nice, but admittedly way less erection inducing than a Porsche, car.
the last car we owned ended up costing us a fortune in timing belts etc (scheduled) just to try and sell the ****ing thing.
this car will be fully covered for the 3 years we “have” it. The only thing we’ll have to pay for is one maintenance and maybe some new shoes. I imagine with the (less luxurious, less prestigious) acceleration, and mrs dd’s heavy foot, we’ll probably get through a set of those.
all £ on cars is throwing it away. I’ve “owned” cars for years. They’re a pain in the arse.
as above, the salary sacrifice schemes are generally a lease, but more cost effective than a personal one as tax is deducted from it at source, so your net payment in a month is lower than doing it privately. Some include maintenance and tyres and servicing, some don't, depends on the scheme provider and the deal that the employer sets up.
Thanks both, yes I get the theoretical advantages of buying stuff with your pre-tax income, I'm just wondering how that actually works in practice.
If I've done my maths right the Brabus will actually cost you (after tax) around £8k over the three years. So what would it then cost to keep the car? Also, are there any limits on how far you can drive it in those three years? I typically do around 20k per year.
@Roverpig I can only discuss my Salary Sacrifice scheme. I have no idea if they are all the same.
I have a 7 month old Audi Q4 eTron Sportback Black Edition. Book value is £67k (with a few upgrades).
No deposit required. Over a 4 year term and 15,000 miles a year.
This is a cost of approx £520 a month. (Difference between my pre car bring home and current bring home)
I installed an EV charger at my girlfriends, cost £1000.
Charging is pennies. Our electricity bill has actually gone down, we’ve moved washing, dish washing to all be at the same time as the car charging. The charger has paid for itself now, my old fuel bill was £60 a week approx.
I don’t have to pay for servicing, insurance or new tyres.
My previous car was a Cupra (Leon model) 2 litre petrol (300 hp, same as the EV). The Cupra was a great car, absolutely loved it. But it was 4 years old and while it had no issues the fuel bill, insurance and tyres added up. I paid monthly for the car on PCP.
For me, I’m not paying any more than I was previously. At the end of my PCP deal I could have bought the car outright (balloon), but I wanted a shiney new car….
I get I’m fortunate enough to be in this position. I know I could drive a cheaper car, pay more into my pension l, retire earlier…. However, this works for me.
I've had my Smart #1 Brabus for 8 months now, it has been a while since I've had anything that I've not played the "what would I swap it with" game after 8 months but there is genuinely nothing I'd swap it for right now. Boot is tiny, lots of other EVs have better range, that's pretty much my negative list. Usually just me in it, golf clubs fit with one seat forward and tilted. It has done 2 trips into the office this week and some general running around and I'll charge it overnight tonight. Overall running costs are same or slightly less than an Octavia estate on previous very cheap lease deal.
They were 3.9 to 60 when I got mine so not sure if re-tested or power increased but it is plenty quick. Lovely place to sit, had loads of comments how nice it is and how Mercedes like. With the power it has in Comfort (RWD until AWD needed) it'll twitch at the rear before the power is cut or front wheels join in, that mode is limited power and is still quicker than most cars around. Overall it is a fantastic cruiser into work, inside lane dynamic cruise, decent stereo, good controls and Apple car play etc, then turns into a proper quick car when needed. I absolutely love it.
Oh and it has a super annoying rattle behind the screen but with something playing I can ignore it easily enough not to take it back. Actually add in the black paint is properly soft, came with swirl marks and difficult not to add more. Benefits of a lease not having to care that much I guess.
Also, are there any limits on how far you can drive it in those three years?
yes, and the cost per mile over is punitive. You’ll find that, I think, it’s annual mileage that affects monthly cost most. 20k pa will easily lob £150-200 onto whatever lease deal is showing on screen (which always look like bargain because they’ll be a 9/12 month down, +48 etc; so ignore those.)
as for owning the car afterwards, I haven’t checked. Some lease companies want them back and won’t sell. Some will.
maybe in three years, I can get the Taycan. :o)
Anyway.. I’msure you get where I’m coming from (that EV motors can now be whacked into any old car, and make them go fast)
100% agree.... it's almost the new norm!
Deadlydarcey’s Smart car will out accelerate all 718 Cayman & 718 Boxster, all Cayenne ranges, many 911s etc etc… Even the highest spec/trim..
Absolutely - but it's not all about the speed obvs.
[True story]
We were pottering [50mph] down the road in MrsSB's 718 Boxster with the roof down on Monday and I was thinking how lovely it was to just listen to the gentle thump, thump, thump of the boxer engine right behind us. They're probably going to make the 718 all electric and it just wouldn't be the same without that background beat. You don't have to go quick!
[/True story]
just wouldn’t be the same without that background beat
many EV's can have a background beat of your choice coming through the loudspeakers ...
They’re probably going to make the 718 all electric
Pretty much guaranteed for launch next year - boxster version first then cayman. Watching that with interest...
Absolutely – but it’s not all about the speed obvs.
Agreed..despite loving the #EVlife...
I still really enjoy watching YouTube videos on ICE tech, and car modding/racing!
I very nearly bought a dihatsu copen, just for fun..!
DrP
Thanks for the details of the salary sacrifice schemes. It sounds as though, despite the tax advantages, it still tends to end up costing a fair wack. But it's all relative and depends how keen you are to have a new car and what else you could do with the money of course. There are no wrong answers really, as long as the kids aren't going without food 🙂
The Smart Brabus mentioned above comes with a choice of two engine sounds if you really want it to fart when you put your foot down. Thankfully you can switch it off though 🙂
Thankfully you can switch it off though 🙂
oh I’m very much having it on. I’ll close my eyes and dream I’m in a nice, slow Porsche.
(I won’t close my eyes, promise!)
Test drove the Genesis GV60 today and super impressed with it. Great ride and comfort levels as well as cool tech e.g. blind spot camera displays either side of the speedo depending on which way you indicate. Definitely top of the shopping list so far.
I don't want any thumping or banging or roaring as I am travelling about the countryside at the speed limit FFS. I want silence, maybe a gentle whoosh to indicate motion.
Test drove the Genesis GV60 today and super impressed with it.
Glad you liked it.
Be aware that some of the cool tech is optional though. The blind spot cameras are part of the Innovation pack.
Even the absolute poverty spec base model still has lots of cool kit though.
the cost per mile over is punitive. You’ll find that, I think, it’s annual mileage that affects monthly cost most. 20k pa will easily lob £150-200 onto whatever lease deal is showing on screen (which always look like bargain because they’ll be a 9/12 month down, +48 etc; so ignore those.)
This is a big cost killer but that's also an ICE issue. Totally switched me off the EV6 about a year ago when it was coming in at around £700/month (iirc).
I'm at that 15k up to 20k a year spot so I tend to buy at 4-5 years old/up to 50k miles and hopefully I'll get 4-5years before the bills are piling in too quickly. It seems to work ok. With long term battery life seemingly not as awful as people (I) feared that space is starting to back fill with some affordable and capable cars. Still more £ than ICE car for car (size/class) but definitely better options.
Was chatting with my dad today about EVs. I found myself wavering about whether we'd have been better with a 4 year old Ioniq5 than our recently bought diesel Skoda. Job is done now but I'm more convinced than ever that we are into our last 3-4 years of ICE cars as a household.
I did 360 miles last Thursday and in my head I could actually see while we were travelling how I would make that work fairly easily. I think we'd have been half an hour or so slower on the 225 mile evening run to the North, which would have been annoying but tolerable. Very unusual day though with work travel then a long slog up to a family thing.
Caranddriver just tested the new model 3 performance to 60 in 2.8 seconds
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a62640173/2024-tesla-model-3-performance-quicker-acceleration/
That's quicker than pretty much everything this side of £200k. Not bad for 60k
Enjoy being baffled, I guess....
Other views are available.. I like top trumps...
DrP
Are they giving the fast evs the brakes and handling to go with the acceleration yet? or are they still just just one trick straight line pony's?
I ask, as our eqc (pretty old in terms of ev designs) is pretty quick in terms of acceleration, 0-60 in 5 seconds, but the brakes and handling are of a car that would do 0-60 in 10 seconds.
And from what I can deduce from reading reviews about a lot of other fast evs, they seem to follow the same formula, good brakes and handling are rarely mentioned, which leads me to believe they not very good for a lot of fast evs.
Disclaimer, I have not driven many other evs, but have driven a lot of fast ice cars over the years, so know what good handling and brakes bring to the overall picture.
Edit: I think the model 3 performance does have decent handling from reading reviews, but so many others don't seem to.
Are they giving the fast evs the brakes and handling to go with the acceleration yet? or are they still just just one trick straight line pony’s?
well…
The #1 Brabus gets:
Different Alloys (same size and tyres). A rear spoiler extended by an inch or so. Some vents in the bonnet that go nowhere. Some red detailing on the front, side and rear skirts. Selective AWD.
Oh and Rocket Launch mode.
So, as you can see, it’ll handle all that extra speed easily. :o)
well…
The #1 Brabus gets:
Different Alloys (same size and tyres). A rear spoiler extended by an inch or so. Some vents in the bonnet that go nowhere. Some red detailing on the front, side and rear skirts. Selective AWD.
Oh and Rocket Launch mode.
So, as you can see, it’ll handle all that extra speed easily. :o)
Lol, yep, that's exactly what I mean.
The performance edition polestar 2 (which..I don't have!) has bigger brembo discs and calipers, and ohlins suspension...
#salivates....
The BST 270 has even better shocks.
To be fair on the standard P2, the brakes are fairly sizeable at 345mm front, and has wide tyres (the rears rims are an inch wider than the front!).
Additionally, I've lowered mine.
However, I completely agree that it's all pointless and. 99% of the time I'm cruising around in complete peace, probably at about 26mph, accelerating slowly etc...!
But... I'm a kid at heart, and I'm completely honest on that fact it's kinda cool to have a near 500hp car!
DrP
That’s why the pick of the range for any given electric car is usually the biggest battery, single motor version with the smallest wheels. Gives the greatest range but throttles back the performance to match the characteristics of the actual car to make it just quick enough
Regarding the engine noise thing, I find myself equating it to loud hubs on a bike.
I've had loud clicky Hopes, loud buzzy C King and Superstar 120poe things.
I quite like loud hubs, but then I started using Onyx silent hubs on a couple of bikes, and on balance, I prefer it. Given the choice one way or another, silent wind hands down, but I like to hear someone else cruise by with a silly loud I9 or similar occasionally.
I just don't want it myself.
Same with noisy cars.
I love to hear, in no particular order, a proper old American V8 muscle car, a healthy cross flow on Weber's at full welly in a rally car, a scooby Impreza burbling by at low speed, air cooled Porsches, Harley shovelhead or older, Golf R32, a screaming four cylinder bike.
I just don't want that soundtrack while trundling down the A9 in the family car. Give me electric calm anytime.
Of course, come the lottery win, the MST MK1 with a Millington is top of the list alongside the leccy car.
And some daft old Harley.
And maybe a slightly rodded 50s Chevrolet...
.
I was a serious “petrol head” when I was younger and regularly drove everything from Caterhams to 800 bhp Audis and ridiculous supercharged cobras; the latter was terrifying, you could almost feel the chassis twisting, and the noise had other petrol heads twitching at two miles. I also did trackdays, drag racing, sprints and hill climbs frequently and went to the Nurburgring every year. I enjoyed a lot of very nice ICE cars but I have to say, despite being a fair bit slower than some of my previous cars, the silent acceleration of our Model 3 performance never fails to make me smile, I’m also a lot happier to pootle along and just chill no matter how manically others are driving. As a competent cross country car, it’s outstanding and really doesn’t want for anything on the suspension or brake front. The suspension and brakes wouldn’t be vaguely suited for hammering around a racetrack, then again, I had to swap brakes and suspension on my BMW M3 and many other performance cars.
Maybe I’m getting old, but another thing I love about our M3P is that it’s not even slightly antisocial, it wafts along, barely disturbing anyone’s peace. I loved a BMW straight six howling away, the angry growl of a turboed V8 and that supercharger whine on a large capacity engine; different times though for me and I can’t say I miss the noise. 🙂
I think I’ll get a Nurburgring sticker for the back of the Brabus. As befits its Teutonic design.
MST MK1 with a Millington
My first car, back in 1985, was a Mk1 Escort Mexico. In orange.
It would now be a collectors item/museum piece but it was, by all reasonable measure, shit.
I'm not going backwards
Don’t forget the red seatbelts @deadlydarcy I’m sure they’ll save you from all that power 🙂
I do find the dual-motor = insane acceleration approach with EVs a bit annoying to be honest. I mean I’m sure it’s fun but you don’t half pay for it in insurance premiums. A Tesla Model 3 long range is insurance group 50, which is about as high as it goes and could easily end up costing a grand more per year to insure than a more sensible premium car and that’s for someone in their 50s. OK Tesla’s are particularly expensive to insure but there is usually a decent hike that comes with adding the extra motor. A Smart # 1 Premium is group 32 and a Brabus is group 38, for example
We’ve tended to go for AWD ICE cars as they suit our dodgy Aberdeenshire roads pretty well, but it’s hard to justify a dual motor EV as I don’t think anyone (other than maybe Subaru with the rebadge Toyota, which has its own issues) seems to make an AWD EV with a focus on traction rather than straight line acceleration.
Don’t forget the red seatbelts @deadlydarcy I’m sure they’ll save you from all that power 🙂
oh Cripes, yes. I totally forgot about those. There are red brake calipers as well I think. Which function way better than the unpainted ones on the other models.
@roverpig our M3P with full business use and loads of extras, inc European cover, legal etc is about £600 with Admiral, which isn’t far off our recent performance VAG cars. Maybe it’s an area thing for some reason? Although as they don’t really get stolen maybe not…
I honestly dont get the EV acceleration. So much so that i havent even used mine in anything other than economy mode so far. Why on earth would i want to 'nail it' in a family car that weighs over 2t? Its not as if its a sports car. It cant go around corners quickly and i dare say my wifes Mini Cooper would wipe the floor with it over a distance. The only thing i am achieving by stamping on the fast pedal in sport mode is to look like a slightly old, balding cock. It completely defeats the object of EV's as well.
I had the choice of AWD higher output motors on my vehicle but when i compared performance and range it was completely pointless. The higher output AWD version had a smaller battery (I presume to save weight) so a considerably lower range. BOTH cars were limited to 99mph so it couldnt even go faster. The only thing it had was the AWD in the winter and a faster 0-60 time.
I would honestly have them limited on their acceleration. It seems strange that a car marketed on its clean credentials allows itself to burn through its range doing pointless 0-60 times.
I drive in eco mode 99.9% of the time.
Normal mode for the occasional junction.
Sport mode for the fractions of a second that are needed when I cycle through the drive modes to get back to eco.
I would honestly have them limited on their acceleration. It seems strange that a car marketed on its clean credentials allows itself to burn through its range doing pointless 0-60 times.
If you if go you down that route then limit ICE cars acceleration also as they're burning through petrol which is more of a problem than using a few electrons.
When EVs were first commecialised the petrol heads rolled out the usual milk float jibes. Once the Tesla Model S was released all of a sudden they started arguing 0-60 times weren't important after obsessing about 0-60 times for decades. Having fast EVs removes a big argument against them used by a very vocal constituency.
To me that is the problem. Just because ice cars have become large heavy things with 300hp considered normal, evs didn't need to follow. They may not burn fossil fuel themselves, but there is still a need for efficient use of energy.
I honestly dont get the EV acceleration.
Just because ice cars have become large heavy things with 300hp considered normal, evs didn’t need to follow.
Absolutely agree with this but there seems to be an expectation of quick acceleration/0-60 times – I have an EV with a 0-60 of 5.3 seconds and some of the reviews about it say things like 'it's sufficient but not amazing' and 'not as fast as a Tesla' etc. A few years ago, that acceleration would make it one of the quickest mass-market cars out there.
Thanks @steamtb that's very interesting. You seem to be paying less for your IG 50 EV than I am for my IG 22 ICE car, so I must be doing something wrong 🙂
I honestly dont get the EV acceleration. So much so that i havent even used mine in anything other than economy mode so far. Why on earth would i want to ‘nail it’ in a family car that weighs over 2t?
Whilst I agree doing sub 5s 0-60 shouldn't be a focus of why people are buying EVs nor encouraged I have to say after 18 months of EV ownership I still like being first at a red light where it's safe to floor it (my commute is mostly on 40mph limited dual carriageway with several sets of lights). It's a brief source of puerile enjoyment to go 0-40 in a couple of seconds (and the only remotely enjoyable thing about driving for me), I'm sure everyone behind me is muttering "what a tit" to themselves but I don't care :p It's a bit less than 1% battery but as it's a rare occurrence I'm first at the lights and my commute otherwise is only 4% of my battery I don't feel I'm killing the planet every time I do get the opportunity (and don't have discernable wheel spin either so not unduly wearing out my tyres).
There's also so many idiots around that do 30-40mph on the on slip when joining a motorway (where traffic isn't crawling along) I appreciate being able to quickly accelerate up to 60-70mph to more safely match the traffic flow.
There’s also so many idiots around that do 30-40mph on the on slip when joining a motorway
Possibly this is because there are many drivers who seem to identify a car as their entry point to the motorway and match its speed rather than identifying a GAP and setting themselves up for that.
Many folks joining motorways do not seem to recognise that slip roads end in a junction where motorway traffic has right of way. German and Dutch colleagues used to get quite perturbed at British motorway drivers slowing down to let slip road drivers out.
On the EV acceleration. Yes! It is very handy at times.
It is very handy to have quick acceleration on hand at times - I like it. I may trundle around 99% of the time but occasionally if I want to overtake someone, I want it over and done with as fast as possible. Note I just mean like sub 7 secs to 60 or whatever, not 3 seconds.
I overtook a car in my EV for the first time yesterday and had a hairy moment – I put my foot down hard, expecting it to 'wind up' a bit before accelerating (because of a lifetime of driving ICE cars), but it shot off before I had properly pulled out and I had to lift off and start all over. It wasn't close to being an accident, but the whole family in the car with me were like 'WTF are you doing'?
Lesson learned.
I think the fast get away wears off for me I spend most of my time driving as normal, Its nice to have but nowhere to use.
I'm determined to hand our Model Y back with the original tyres after three years, so pootle about in 'chill' mode. It's plenty fast enough for most comfortable driving with passengers.
Instant torque was great climbing hairpins in the summer.
@johndoh I’ve had similar while pulling out into gaps in traffic. Where previously a car would be passing, my brain would process time to move, move foot from brake to accelerator, auto box would start to engage, engine winds up, car starts to move a bit then really gets going… now the car has auto hold so my foot is already on the accelerator, as I’m processing ‘let’s get going’ my foot pushes the accelerator and the car rockets forward. I’ve not had any near misses but have been a bit too close to the rear of the passing car for my liking.
Just seen this, looks ace. Shame it’s a one off and won’t be made though 🙁
Looks nice. I wonder if they'd do one in colour 🙂
I know it's just a concept but it's interesting to see that (like a Tesla) it doesn't actually have a bumper; in the sense of a sacrificial bit of plastic that is designed to take the hit and protect the rest of the car. I was reading something recently about why Tesla's are in such a high insurance group and this was given as one of the reasons. Any small bump is likely to result in damage to a main panel and therefore an expensive repair.
Bumper looks pretty similar to the original? It is there, just not a very obvious panel join.
The original was expensive to repair I think because it was aluminium. Presumably the bumpers are plastic.
Is it still a bumper if it doesn't stick out 🙂
So it looks as though you can't get an AWD EV without also getting bonkers acceleration, which means higher insurance costs. I'm not ruling that out but I am questioning whether I need a dual motor EV. My main motivation is improved traction in winter conditions (which we still get a fair bit of up here in the frozen North).
So, if I go for a single motor setup and with traction being the key is it still better (as it was with ICE cars) to go for FWD over RWD?
So, if I go for a single motor setup and with traction being the key is it still better (as it was with ICE cars) to go for FWD over RWD?
The only reason people used to say a fwd car had better traction in poor grip conditions than a rwd car was because the engine (and therefore more weight) was typically over the front wheels.
In an ev the motor is over the axle it is driving, so it doesn't matter ( in terms of weight distribution ) whether you go fwd or rwd from a traction point of view, also the battery spreads it's weight more evenly. You still have the characteristic that in a fwd car the power from the wheels is steerable, whereas in rwd it is not steerable
Maybe fwd still is just ahead of rwd for poor grip conditions because of the steerable power, but I reckon there's less in it than there used to be.
I'd still say get a twin motor car though, the extra insurance cost must be minimal for an oldish person with a clean licence and no previous claims.
Thanks. I still tend to think that FWD will perform better in snow/ice than RWD but that may just be years of driving ICE cars. Somehow being pulled along feels like it should work better in those conditions than being pushed along and understeer is much easier to control than oversteer. But then modern cars have electronic stability packs, so maybe it is irrelevant.
As I say, I'm not ruling out a dual-motor EV but it generally means a higher purchase cost, higher insurance costs and less range than the single-motor alternative so it's a bit harder to justify.
i reckon an EV with CrossClimates would be pretty effective in wintry conditions. It is still gong to be a very heavy sledge if/when braking forces, whether regen or discs, are overcome though by gravity.
Yes, tyres are still king 🙂
I've done a bit more digging and I think I've now convinced myself that RWD is better than FWD for an EV. As @julians says, weight distribution is different to an ICE car, which was the main reason for preferring FWD in an ICE car. EVs also have more torque which means torque steer could be more of an issue. Finally, when you accelerate the weight tends to shift from the front to the rear anyway, so RWD should actually give better traction . Of course all modern cars have so many traction aids that it probably makes little difference in practice , but I do like to sweat the details 🙂
Of course, if you accept that RWD is better than FWD that does rule out many popular offerings from Hyundai, Kia and almost anything French, which is a shame 🙂
my EV is RWD, with standard tyres, which are big fat ones, and it's laughably crap in the snow. I only had the opportunity to try it once last winter, which was my first one with it, and I won't be repeating it. It's an i4, and brought back memories of my 520d Tourer from 10 years ago.. It's a lease car so I can't swop the tyres.
Thankfully I can WFH much of the time so don't 'have' to use it in snowy weather (high part of South Lanarkshire so we do get some proper winter conditions most years), and we do have 3 FWD petrol cars in the household, one with CrossClimates all round.
why has there NOT been a decent estate EV?
I'd suggest it's partly market forces and partly packaging. SUVs have outsold estates for a while - ever since the Quashqai came out really. Then if you are going to stick a load of batteries under the floor it's easier to do that if you're making a taller vehicle. Now we've got posh estate offerings from VW, Audi and BMW but I think STW has a few years to wait for the e-Octavia
To me that is the problem. Just because ice cars have become large heavy things with 300hp considered normal, evs didn’t need to follow. They may not burn fossil fuel themselves, but there is still a need for efficient use of energy.
It doesn't make a difference to the efficiency.
To give an EV higher max power, you just need thicker wires and a bigger battery*, which also increases the range anyway. In an ICE, an engine capable of higher maximum power is less efficient (to a greater or lesser extent) but this is not the case with EVs.
Even if you use all that power to accelerate it makes little difference to your overall economy. You still need the same amount of energy to get from 0-60mph regardless of how quickly it's delivered; the only thing is that you will waste a bit more energy as heat - but that's trivial compared to the content of a battery pack. If you were accelerating hard and braking hard all the time, like on an actual racing track, then yes you'd lose range, but booting it on a public road to modest speed - barely any difference. Sustaining a higher speed for a long time though, like driving at 80 vs 70 - that does cost you range because of air resistance.
* Caveat: generally a more powerful car would come with wider tyres, which do cost efficiency, but such tyres are also available on lower power cars so it's up to you if you want to factor that in.
EVs also have more torque which means torque steer could be more of an issue.
My Leaf got quite sketchy when booting it with any lock applied.
One thing I have been wondering about - when regen braking, I assume the brake lights don't come on? Surely there is going to be an increased risk of collisions when the person behind doesn't know the car is slowing quickly? The same goes for the assisted braking my car has – if the car in front is slowing, it automatically slows down but I assume the brake lights don't come on.
when regen braking, I assume the brake lights don’t come on? Surely there is going to be an increased risk of collisions
They very much come on, regardless of whether it’s the brake pedal being pressed or regen (most modern EVs actually regen instead of brake when you press the brake pedal anyway, for efficiency.)
It’s ICEs where use of engine braking does not trigger the brake lights which are the higher risk here
Any Enyaq users on here with the standard headlights? Have you found a way to increase the throw of light whilst dipped? I think they are 2 or 3 degrees too low. Absolutely fine for driving at 20mph or in town, but utterly useless on dark country roads (even at 30mph) - just not enough light thrown forward.
when regen braking, I assume the brake lights don’t come on? Surely there is going to be an increased risk of collisions
You might be surprised but you're not the only one to have thought of this 🙂 The govt has made a rule that says brake lights have to come on beyond a certain level of deceleration regardless of how it's achieved.
Have you found a way to increase the throw of light whilst dipped?
I don't know the enyaq specifically, but on our vw tiguan there were small angle adjusters that you turned with an Allen key to adjust the static angle. A quick google should confirm. But if you open the bonnet and look at the rear of head light units it was fairly obvious what the adjuster screw was, it was a whiteish plastic looking adjuster.
but why has there NOT been a decent estate EV?
5 series launched this year. VW ID.7 available as an estate (bit of a barge though)
Audi A6 and A4 launching next year. The A6 looks sublime.
A4 will be on my shopping list when we go EV.
I'm pretty sure ALL cars have headlight alignment adjusters.
You can try that.... Or they might simply be a bit crap!
I think they are 2 or 3 degrees too low
I've had this on several cars (including new) and apparently it is widespread even on new cars. It's utterly insane that no-one cares. Even garages shrugged their shoulders. You need to find the adjusters for your car (the internet can help) and then the little headlight sticker on the front of the engine bay with a percentage next to it. That's the specified gradient of the lights. So you drive up to a wall, mark the cutoff line and the inflection point, then reverse back say 5m and calculate how much lower the line should be and adjust to suit. The inflection point is meant to stay dead ahead of the headlight.
Ok so it wasn't new, but the Leaf's headlights were so badly aligned that I had to stop at midnight on the way back from picking it up, buy some allen keys at a petrol station and adjust them. They were still shit though.
The throw on the lights of my EV6 was awful when I got it. I have no idea why the angle was set so low in the factory. A quick fiddle with the angle adjusters and it was like having different lights.
Can someone just clarify something for me on tesla charging points. I investigated a new site for me to use yesterday that will be handy for any trips going south on the motorway. I just did a quick 2 min charge but it seems they have taken £20. Is this a refundable cost they take on every charge or is there a minimum they have. I dont recall them taking £20 on my visit at gretna a week or so ago.