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Sounds easy enough, until you remember it's taken 25 years for tech companies to even start to agree on a mobile phone charging cable standard.
All you really need is a standard compartment and connector.... and voltage and management system and.....There'd still be different user interfaces and profiles so one brand might be fast, one more economical so still options to differentiate. If you can swap in, it doesn't need to be so big so avoiding the need to squash cells into cavities and pouches all around the chassis.
There are lots of ideas- some of them pretty good. Shipping lithium and lithium ion batteries has been a problem for a while now but I keep thinking a change in battery chemistry is on the horizon. Less flammable electrolytes for example could make a big difference.
Nah, they're all in on lithium now, it'll take another huge shift (hydrogen?) to shift course at this point.
As for changing batteries depending on your journey, no chance. The battery is now an integral part of the chassis, designed to withstand accidents. It's just not practical to have replaceable batteries.
Re swapping of batteries.
It would, in the vast majority of cases be massively less convenient than recharging.
For most use cases cars spend the vast majority of their time stanionary, either at home or work place etc. slow charging makes sense there. Also, fast charging is REALLY fast if done properly so not a real issue so long as the car has enough range to do some significant miles before needing a charge.
Both of the above cases assume sufficient charging locations, both slow and fast. We’re not quite there yet.
As an example, I did 375 miles in my i4 over the last few days, and needed only 10kW charge before getting home again - adding an extra 10 for a buffer is 20kW. There was a low charger outside my hotel so I used that and it charged while I had dinner, but a proper fast charger would have added that charge in about 10 minutes.
Battery swapping is happening in China, but I'm not seeing many others currently going down that route. There is ever increasing platform sharing, so maybe it could become a thing, but currently most seem to be designing around the benefits of ev packaging compared to ic, so that generally means pushing wheels out to the corners and a well integrated central skateboard chassis / battery module.
https://www.nio.com/blog/1200th-nio-power-swap-station-up-running
Toyota's recent solid state battery announcement sounds like it might be the start of the next wave (and Nio are also starting to release solid state batteries).
On a different note, there must have been a big shipment from China in the last couple of months as the MG dealer I pass on the way to work seems to have ever increasing numbers of (mostly electric) cars scattered everywhere (i.e. cutting / gravelling the scrubland behind the dealership to store them). They don't seem to be disappearing so can't all be advanced orders - so maybe prices are set to get a bit keener?
Nah, they’re all in on lithium now
It's not the lithium it's the electrolyte that's flammable. Solid state batteries should solve that, as well giving us twice the range or the same range for half the mass. And they will happen, quite soon. It's not a nuclear fusion style pipe dream.
My wife is changing jobs so her SalSac EV has to go back. My company scheme allows 2 EVs so i've just ordered an MG4 Trophy for her. £300/mo all inclusive.
Okay, so 323 EV fires compared to 1898 IC.
Why are you comparing EV fires over 5 years in the whole of the UK to ICE fires covered by the London fire brigade in one year?
@gribs I have no ****ing idea.
Seriously, good spot, re-reading it that makes more sense against the claims.
An EV is believed to have a caused a fire on a car transport ship in the North Sea
Odd as there is no confirmation of the cause.
Odd as there is no confirmation of the cause.
why is it odd? The statement used 'believed to have' not 'was confirmed to have'.
Because the coastguard retracted to say they didn;t know the cause.
^^^ there is a huge difference in quality control in car manufacturing than in unregulated cheap Chinese electrical goods though.
Remember a few years ago all the posts in here about cheap lights, and putting the charges in biscuit tins to prevent fire risk etc. it appears that the vast majority of these ebike and escooter fires are similar cheap unregulated bits of tech.
I wonder how many occurrences of fires with bikes from the reputable brands - Spesh, Trek, Giant etc…. I bet not many.
The Press is ignorantly labelling all epowered 2 wheelers the same though.
When was the last time there was any positive news about any of Musk's ventures?
https://twitter.com/Timodc/status/1684581485183991808
Not a Musk fan but that story sounds like sensationalist shite. Walkers have a complaints team to deal with people who have issues managing a bag of crisps, it's hardly amazing to assume a car company has a complaints team to deal with people grappling with car issues on what is a relatively new consumer product.
I get this issue even now with my EV - it gives a projected range based on your past driving which may or not be representative of the journey you're about to undertake. Claimed range is 283miles, but in practice it can be anything between 190 and 280 miles depending on the route and conditions. However, you can avoid this by using any EV route planner which can generally tell you very accurately your range for a given journey. Most normally people can understand this but I am sure the manufacturer gets grief from a small subset of customers who can't wrap their head around it.
I get this issue even now with my EV – it gives a projected range based on your past driving which may or not be representative of the journey you’re about to undertake. Claimed range is 283miles, but in practice it can be anything between 190 and 280 miles depending on the route and conditions. However, you can avoid this by using any EV route planner which can generally tell you very accurately your range for a given journey. Most normally people can understand this but I am sure the manufacturer gets grief from a small subset of customers who can’t wrap their head around it.
Most folk with diesel/petrol cars have no idea of either their range nor what they do to the gallon/litre and just fill up at half/quarter/reserve etc.
I don't have an EV, currently diesel, but my next car will be an EV and at that point I'll get a charger installed at home and pay a bit more attention on longer trips as to the range vs stops.
Yeah, as has been shown by the substantial numbers of motoring journalists trying to make a quick buck, publishing stories about how stupid people fail to take into account that their new car is not like their old car - this is just rubbish.
it’s akin to when Microsoft changed the look of Windows and Office and people couldn’t work it because they flat refused to try and use it like it was intended, not like how they’d used it before. Kubler-Ross in action - it’s often better to just ignore and wait.
I keep thinking a change in battery chemistry is on the horizon. Less flammable electrolytes for example could make a big difference.
It's already happened, LFP batteries are becoming more the norm. Telsa have been putting them in their rwd model 3 and Y for a few years now and many Chinese cars have this battery, also Ford are using them I believe. The advantage of LFP is it likes to be abused, it doesn't over heat, doesn't suffer thermal runaway and if you do manage to set fire to it, it doesn't release oxygen, so easy to extinguish.
"Most folk with diesel/petrol cars have no idea of either their range nor what they do to the gallon/litre and just fill up at half/quarter/reserve etc."
Yeah but... they do have an idea of how close petrol stations are likely to be and also have a high degree of certainty that there will be fuel there. You can pop a quarter tank in or a tenner as you are never that far from a pump. Even in the far north west where i'm headed tomorrow, i know where i need to fill and where i can fill again if required.
they do have an idea of how close petrol stations are likely to be and also have a high degree of certainty that there will be fuel there
Don’t most modern cars have some sort of GPS mapping device that tells them where lots of things are? Things like stores, filling stations, charging stations etc?
I’ve not considered running out of fuel a thing since I started driving back in the 20th century. I think it became more unlikely when we changed to electric cars.
Don’t most modern cars have some sort of GPS mapping device that tells them where lots of things are? Things like stores, filling stations, charging stations etc?
Lots do. Only a select few actually interrogate the charger live time to tell you if it's working at all - if it's already charging a vehicle(higher impact than queuing for petrol)
I've been using the chargefinder app for my long distance mid journey charging options.
The car navigation system isn't as up to date as an app and I'm only interested in using 50kw+ chargers when on big days out so the filters in the app remove the low powered chargers.
That requirement may determine where I head to or go via to get to the destination.
Cost of charging also is a factor, the Tesla open for all chargers can be much cheaper than other chargers.
Another fast charger has recently opened locally, 10p cheaper than the next nearest. Would save £2.50 per charge as I typically stop charging when the charge rate drops below 30kwh.
My parents used zap map on their trip north from Edinburgh.... And managed to hit two in a row showing on zap map as working ...... That weren't even hooked up.
As I've said before poor infrastructure is a bigger issue north of Perth than below it so if your south of the border it's probably not something that will concern you.
The vast majority of car carriers fires are caused by shipping used vehicles which develop shorts due to the motion and worn wiring.
The fires spread exponentially, 1st car takes about 10 minutes to get going, this ignites the 8 cars surrounding it, they ignite the 16 surrounding them and so on. Carriers will frequently have mixed loads of old and new vehicles.
The problem with the EV fires is the heat and intensity is much greater, which is more likely to damage structure and fire divisions. If the integrity is damaged, then the CO2 flooding systems are as effective.
You can't just pump thousands of gallons of water on the fire either, you might put the fire out but you may also capsize the ship.
tomd
Full MemberNot a Musk fan but that story sounds like sensationalist shite. Walkers have a complaints team to deal with people who have issues managing a bag of crisps, it’s hardly amazing to assume a car company has a complaints team to deal with people grappling with car issues on what is a relatively new consumer product.
I get this issue even now with my EV – it gives a projected range based on your past driving which may or not be representative of the journey you’re about to undertake. Claimed range is 283miles, but in practice it can be anything between 190 and 280 miles depending on the route and conditions. However, you can avoid this by using any EV route planner which can generally tell you very accurately your range for a given journey. Most normally people can understand this but I am sure the manufacturer gets grief from a small subset of customers who can’t wrap their head around it.
I'm really not sure how you got to your walkers crisps analogy here. Did you actually read the whole article? You seem to have missed the point of the story.
It's nothing to do with simply having a complaints team. It's also nothing to do with your second paragraph.
According to the source in the article, Tesla, at Musk's personal request, intentionally made their software give wildly optimistic and unachievable range readouts between 100% and 50% SOC. It would only give a realistic readout after this point.
This affected customers to the extent that in some cases drivers got only around half of the predicated range stated when the battery was full. They quite reasonably therefore believed their batteries were faulty.
This complaint was raised so often that Tesla's service centres were completely swamped. Tesla therefore formed a specialist complaint handling team specifically tasked with fobbing off the customers with this particular complaint as early as possible. And in actual fact, nothing was wrong with their cars, other than the software added at Musks request (again, allegedly, according to the source in the article).
Seconded, the article goes into some detail regarding Tesla and their wildly optimistic ("aggressive") range predictions that don't take weather, terrain, accessory use (HVAC/ICE) or driver habits into consideration (dashboard) and when they do (sat-nav) still come up short. DoT testing found Tesla were consistently over predicting by up to 26% across all models.
That's the sort of thing that results in class action lawsuits, never mind killing more baby robins than you thought, this is directly costing people money as they were sold a car that claimed an efficiency it was never going to achieve. Put it this way, if Volkswagen were selling cars that claimed 50mpg but even in testing could only hit 40mpg people would rightly be pissed, why is this any different?
This isn't a boot into EV makers, this is a boot into Tesla and in particular Musk who has once again applied his Shiteas Touch and brought another brand into disrepute.
As I’ve said before poor infrastructure is a bigger issue north of Perth than below it so if your south of the border it’s probably not something that will concern you
It's not just north of the border. It's anywhere it's not profitable. That's the problem of the network developing commercially rather than through nationalised infrastructure.
I have family in East Anglia. Charger (and particularly fast charger) availability in their town and surrounding arterial routes is pretty poor. In the 60 miles I travel up the A12 zap map is only showing two petrol stations with a fast charger directly on the road. Directly on the route the next nearest fast chargers are I think Thurrock and South Mims depending on which way round the M25 and possibly one at j28.
When I'm only there for a weekend I really don't want to spend a morning of my visit hunting electricity or taking another 30 minutes trying to get to a charger 5 miles off route that is somewhere I have no interest in being.
I love teslas ecosystem . I think it makes perfect sense and eclipses any other I've used.
But vanmoof rings hard and getting invested into a Tesla especially with the random angle generator at the helm seems like a good way to end up with a paperweight.
My current ICE car lease is up at the end of September, and whilst I have the option to extend for a final year (which is probably the most sensible financial choice) I'm also looking at the Tesla Model Y as an alternative. For me it fits the bill size wise and the charger network is a big plus, additionally the way that the retail model is set up I can obtain one at short notice (I'd be looking at Inventory stock to give the best price).
My conundrum is which version should I be looking at. Having never owned an EV range anxiety is strong, I don't commute via car (unless travelling for a customer meeting), but do take journeys of a decent distance for meetings, riding, UK holidays, family visits etc). The Long Range would be preferable (and AWD and better performance is nice) but the RWD version is significantly cheaper, however I can't get the lower range out of my head (and I know the real word figure is going to be lower than the given range). Anyone been through the same through process and can provide a view?
When was the last time there was any positive news about any of Musk’s ventures?
Here you go
https://electrek.co/2023/05/25/tesla-model-y-is-now-the-worlds-best-selling-car-first-ev-to-do-so/
When was the last time there was any positive news about any of Musk’s ventures?
Here you go
Thanks. Three months ago then.
Don’t most modern cars have some sort of GPS mapping device that tells them where lots of things are? Things like stores, filling stations, charging stations etc?
They do, but the problem is areas of charger 'desert'. Went to Filey recently and in the wider area the only fast charger seemed to be at McDonalds in Scarborough.
My conundrum is which version should I be looking at.
I have a Model Y RWD. Real world range 220-250 miles. Range is not a concern because the Supercharger network is just so damn good and the integration with the nav system is excellent. Coming from a non-Tesla EV I feel like what I imagine the Nomenclatura felt like the the Soviet Union with their own lanes on the motorway. Everywhere I go there's a Supercharger just for me and there's always a free charger. Also Supercharger prices per kWh are getting on for half what other networks charge.
OK the MY RWD its the slowest Tesla but at 6.5 s 0-60 and 137 max its still the fastest car I've ever owned. Also the RWD has the LFP battery which likes to be charged to 100% so you can have max range every day before you set out. Also LFP battery has no cobalt so you can be smug and tell ICE drivers their cars use more Co than yours because Co is used to desulphurise petrol and diesel.
The range issue is because manufacturers quote WLTP which is the imposed testing standard. Drive like the test and you'll get the quoted figures whether ICE or electric. Renault quote two figures; WLTP and their own estimation for normal use 395km and 320km respectively for the Zoé, they also have a very pessimistic calculator on their web site in which you enter speed, temperature, A/C, heater. I can and do equal or better the test figures with both my ICE and EV vehicles. The information is there for all to use, far more than any ICE.
There are conditions in which both do much worse. The worst I do in the ICE is short journeys from cold in town with traffic jams and lots of stop start . Volkswagen is selling cars that are advertised to do 50mpg and only 40mpg in some circumstances - see the threads about car fuel economy - there are as many figures as drivers/uses. Lead foot vroom vroom petrolhead versus smooth driving economical citizen.
Thanks. Three months ago then.
July good enough?
https://electrek.co/2023/07/25/tesla-now-outsells-toyota-in-california/
As for fires, if 25% of CO2 emisions over the last century or so have been from transport then you can blame ICE vehicles for their role in the climate change wild fires we are seeing around the world.
@edukator, the range figures tested were the ones given by Tesla that, when tested (using the same criteria for all makes) fell short of their predicted range by up to 26%. I'm not sure where WLTP fits into that as I don't recall it being mentioned (it's the US energy efficiency tags like we have on white goods). From what they say Tesla haven't done anything wrong as far as they are concerned but are gaming the calculations much harder than their competitors, some of whom are still falling short (but not by as much and as consistently) whilst others are actually under predicting by a fair margin.
So yeah, Tesla are clearly taking the piss albeit within the framework that's set up. Charger network aside I wouldn't be comfortable owning something I'm not in full control of. Sony got a slap, what, 10 years ago? for trying to claim they had free reign to brick Playstations for whatever reason until a court decided that no, you can't claim the hardware on it's own is what was bought and you can withdraw the software that runs it as and when you please. Tesla are known for pulling features and "bricking" cars for anti-consumer reasons ("unauthorised" repairs being one) so between that and the general beta test-vibe it's not something I'd be interested in (for the same reason I don't pay for "early access" games).
Which is a shame because that aside they are good looking (on the outside at least) and come in a sensible form factor.
Re WLTP range.
On my recent 390 mile trip over a couple of days, mostly cruise control set to 65mph I got within 5 miles of the WLPT range (my range was 355 miles*, WLPT is 360 miles). So it IS possible to get the range in the right conditions. It was admittedly fairly perfect temperature, but if I'd slowed down to 60mph or turned AC off etc it would have been slightly better so swings and roundabouts etc)
*3.4 m/hw.hr * 80.7kW = 355 miles
That's a BMW i4 e40 MSport with 18" wheel BTW.
Thanks upthedowns, useful to know.
Have 2 EVs - Renault Zoe quoted range 235, 52kwH so achievable at about 4.5 miles per kWh. Tesla Model 3 Long Range quoted is 348 I think, so would need 4.8 miles per kWh to achieve this but can get quite close to this even with a hilly commute. From what I can see, real life vs however they work out the quoted range is reasonably similar for both but in practice we regularly get closer to quoted in the Tesla. Predicted range when driving though they clearly use very different alogorithms to predict. The Zoe is super pessimistic and gives you a terrible predicted range which it then usually beats. Tesla is more optimistic and you have to work to achieve it!
The oddity is that in independent testing in Scandianvia, inc. Norway where we have a LOT of EV's , but also Denmark and Sweden Tesla are considered ok for hitting range numbers, and don't get an excessive writedown when it's -5C and ploughing slush.
In contrast Toyota are in all sorts of a mess with how much range can be achieved before the car shuts down... less than 50% of what Toyota claim.
This is real world, and leaves a lot of Toyota owners unhappy on their summer road tours.
<p>Picking up my i4 e40 on Monday afternoon 😁</p>
<p>Wbo your comments fit my experience. The Tesla is undeniably more efficient than the Renault despite being a much bigger car, and suffers less in the winter even though I have the slightly older one without the heat pump. The Renault is still a really nice car but in winter if I had to put a figure in it I’d say 10% loss of range for the Tesla and more like 15% for the Renault, although of course it friends on the actual temperature. Scandinavian countries would be better placed to see the maximum seasonal changes though! Dad has Kia Soul EV and although he’s quite happy with it, it seems to be consistently further away from quoted range than the Tesla.
Tomorrow’s a big day in my EV journey - driving to Morzine for the family holiday in my Ioniq5.
All my research suggests the Autoroute charging provision is pretty good and even on a busy Sunday waits will be minimal if at all.
520 miles off the tunnel and I plan on filling up at the Eurotunnel Supercharger to 100% before boarding.
My wive has an XC40 recharge and her Volvo RFID card gives cheap IONITY which is plentiful and fast for me (10-80% 16 minutes)
I’ve also got Hyundai/shell/Electroverse RFID plus IONITY/Tesla/Fastned/total apps.
Morzine chalet has an EV charger too.
Excited!!!!