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Roughly twice the CO2 per km over its lifetime than an EV. That AMG is exactly the sort of car its hard to justify if you have a thought for the kind of planet people will live on in the future. For that money the new buyer can buy a fabulous EV that will be cheaper to run even at current electricity prices. And people are still buying ostentatious gas guzlers. That's a problem for everyone with kids or a few years to live themselves.
Mixing up economics and “doing the right thing” is both messy and is “looking at it all wrong”, but is ultimately the lever that will get most people to change behaviours so does matter. As I said earlier much as I like the idea of where EVs will take as and am quite invested in this from a professional stance (I is an engineer) I wouldn’t buy one as a purely personal purchase right now.
That said, if we are going to resort to mpg willy waving (and why not, it’s fun) then in purely financial terms a Diesel would have had to do 105mpg to cost me the same as my EV did this weekend.
If it’s a 100 grand car why bother getting an electric one at all? If someone can afford a car that costs £100,000 I’d assume fuel costs aren’t an issue so they might as well have bought a 3 year old Mercedes G Wagon…
Er because they want to do the right thing and lead the way to the decarbonisation of road transport.
I've given up trying to argue with the "my diesel does 70 mpg and costs less to run than your EV" or the "but they're too expensive" (how much did flat screen TVs cost when they first hit the shops vs now?) or the "its better for the environment if I run my Euro 4 diesel into the ground" or the "but all that lithium mining is trashing the environment" (3 million tonnes per annum of lithium will be mined in 2030 vs 15 billion tonnes of fossil fuels per annum right now) or the "I need to tow my caravan 500 miles non-stop crew. If someone is genuinely interested in moving to an EV I'll answer their questions otherwise I'll just say "if you don't want one don't buy one" because the argument has been decided and by 2035, if governments stick to their policies, they won't be able to buy a new ICE car in western Europe.
https://ondigitalmarketing.com/learn/odm/foundations/5-customer-segments-technology-adoption/
None of this is new, people just need to realise where they sit on the product life cycle.
Am I missing something here? EV charging tarrifs perhaps?
2.3 miles per kWh is shockingly bad. And yes, you should be on an EV tariff if you are doing even modest miles.
When I went to Scotland in September it cost me about £150 in diesel and it would have cost me about half that if I'd taken the EV because I'd start with a full battery. However, normal usage where I can charge at home costs us a tenth of what diesel would, and that's most of our driving. Even with a short commute it's saving us £100/mo.
Re winter miles - drive into town today at 3 degrees C and got 4.1 m/kWh instead of the usual 5, but it's a short trip of about 6 miles. On the way back we were cold so I tried whacking on the heated seats and heater just to see. We got about 3.9, but the best part was that the air got fully warm within a minute or two. Far better than any ICE I've been in. Car was toasty in no time.
The car can use waste heat from the motor and battery for the heater, so the faster you are driving the less the gap between hot and cool weather is. In town driving there's less waste heat so it has touse.more battery power for heat.
2.3 miles per kWh is shockingly bad.
He’s not wrong, it’s rubbish efficiency! One of the reasons why I didn’t choose this ETron car but something far more efficient. The i4 should be more around the 4 miles per kWh type range, I.E closer to molgrips numbers above.
The variation in miles per kWh even between drivers is amazing, while researching the MG4 I watched a number of videos and some of them had awful efficiency, then when I took one out in Friday's freezing conditions I managed to get around 4 miles per kWh on a mixed dual carriage way and M6 run.
Distance driven and speed make a huge difference. I see a range of 1.1 and 2.8. The car automatically stores a summary of every single run - resets when keyed off for about 30 mins to an hour. It’s downloadable so I’ll chuck into excel later on and see what it looks like if you plot distance driven vs consumption- I’m expecting a rough curve which changes over the months from summer to winter.
He’s not wrong, it’s rubbish efficiency! One of the reasons why I didn’t choose this ETron car but something far more efficient. The i4 should be more around the 4 miles per kWh type range, I.E closer to molgrips numbers above.
which eTron is it ? I have an order in through Tusker for a Q4 e-tron, the 50 quattro model, and it has a quoted figure of 3.5 miles per kWh which I though was ok ?
@ianc - mine is the original ETron (just about to be refreshed as the Q8 ETron. The Q4 is a fair bit smaller, and a more recent design so I would hope manages better efficiency.
Bjorn Nylands YouTube channel will have data on this, and he even makes his spreadsheet of his tests public if you search for it.
[i]That AMG is exactly the sort of car its hard to justify if you have a thought for the kind of planet people will live on in the future. For that money the new buyer can buy a fabulous EV that will be cheaper to run even at current electricity prices.[/i]
No EV available in 2007.
I didn't, and wouldn't, buy it new. I am simply re-using someone else's folly as that is currently better than scrapping a fully functional and efficient vehicle for another newer version of the same with batteries.
Thought about the impact on the planet is always a % game and too big and contentious for this thread I feel so I will avoid provoking.
Does that AMG speedo go to 320mph?
Huge school bragging rights.
320 is fior when it is showing KMH. The car is limited to 186mph unless you get the secret unlock but you need to make sure you have the proper tyres etc then so I live with the limitation
My eUp! did about 4 miles/kWh with the temperature around freezing. It would have been nearly 6m/kWh in warm weather. The difference is probably half from battery efficiency and half from heater use. I was dressed for outdoors so only used the heater to demist the screen.
It does also seem to charge less efficiently; the Zappi is feeding it 1.4kWh which would usually result the charge increasing by about 1.3kWh, it's noticeably slower when it's cold. So the running cost is increased by loss of efficiency in both battery to drive and mains to battery. I assume the loss is as heat, the number of electrons in the chemical reactions is fixed.
utter nonsense 🙄No EV available in 2007.
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🙂
I didn't include 'lifestyle' vehicles
Premium, heavy EVs sold on lease deals so the consumer changes for a new one every three years doesn't sound environmentally friendly. Have we all slept walked into this profit-driven model the VMs are pushing on us? The transition to EVs purely for environmental reasons would mean we'd need to adapt to motoring on a very different scale than the choice, luxury and freedom we've grown accustomed to. Has the world been sold a pup? (apologies if this has been argued previously)
Premium, heavy
EVscars sold on lease deals so the consumer changes for a new one every three years doesn’t sound environmentally friendly.
Fixed that for you. It's not just an EV issue - the whole car market works this way.
Thought about the impact on the planet is always a % game and too big and contentious for this thread I feel so I will avoid provoking.
Ta. I agree that given the embedded energy getting a few more km out of an old car is no bad thing, and second-hand buyers will go on doing that out of choice or necessity. The sooner the supply of new ICEs dries up the better though. For our health in the short term and our existance in the long term.
The sooner the supply of new ICEs dries up the better though. For our health in the short term and our existance in the long term.
I'm not so sure about this these days. Expecting some interesting (relatively speaking) developments in synthetic fuels in the next few years. ICE that emits unicorn farts versus EV is an interesting choice
[i]The sooner the supply of new ICEs dries up the better though. For our health in the short term and our existence in the long term[/i] - Well I am doing my best to convert old cars into things where there is no-one else on the planet who will want to own them.
I feel arguing about EV vs ICE as 'solutions' is that they are resolving the wrong problem. It took a global pandemic to force lots of businesses to embrace technology and allow home based work. I don't have any facts to support this but I suspect that the Pandemic had a massive environmental benefit in terms of immediate reduced travel and long term change to working models.
"You don't get to lightbulbs by making better candles" - not sure where I heard this but seems to fit
Look at the ATI FlyZero reports if you want a real understanding of synthetic fuels. It's all a myth once we go beyond tickling the edges of a few % blended. The power required to create it erodes a vast amount of the benefits and even when it's all favourably totted up, you still can't hide the fact the the emissions are still all emitted in the wrong place, impossible to capture and significantly more harmful. You'd be almost better running everything on electrics, burning fossil fuels in power stations and developing carbon capture at source of emission.
The context for FlyZero is SAF, but it's basically the same regardless of use/source.
Expecting some interesting (relatively speaking) developments in synthetic fuels in the next few years. ICE that emits unicorn farts versus EV is an interesting choice
I work for a large (Fortune 200) multinational in the power generation business (large industrial engines and generators, plus "bus" size and up automotive). We're working on fuel cells, battery electric and combustion of alternative fuels all in parallel - not a secret, and it's industry wide, not just us.
There will be multiple solutions and it's not a one-size fits all solution, at least not for the foreseeable future.
Add in different ways of using power (e.g. telecommute instead of physically travelling, smart grids with localized storage etc) and things get more interesting still.
but I suspect that the Pandemic had a massive environmental benefit in terms of immediate reduced travel and long term change to working models.
You'd be very wrong. All the pandemic proved was that habits are hard to break and the corporate culture defines work practices.
Air travel was predicted to take 5y to recover. It did so in 18m (excluding China).
Business travel was supposed to be dead. It's almost fully booked.
Work from home was supposed to remove the need for personal transport, but road journeys went UP toward the end of the pandemic and are at an all time high.
People stopped wearing masks and washing hands as soon as they possibly could, despite other viruses and MORE Covid.
NOTHING changed as a result of the pandemic save for the divide between rich and poor expanding even further
The energy crisis will have a much greater long term effect than the Pandemic WRT changes in behavior. People are finally aware just how much they use and how much it can cost. Prior to the energy crisis, how many people even knew what a kWh of electric cost, never mind what in their house actually consumed that power?
The good thing about electric cars is that it's instantly relatable to home use as it's a directly comparable unit of use.
Hydrogen, synthetic fuels, fuel cells and batteries are all ways of storing energy that is then used for something - in this case driving vehicles.
They all take energy to create and to be environmentally beneficial that energy needs to electricity generated in a zero carbon way.
So what will drive the the solution is ultimately which is the most efficient (and so profitable) way of storing and selling that energy
Premium, heavy EVs sold on lease deals so the consumer changes for a new one every three years doesn’t sound environmentally friendly.
Friendlier than premium heavy ICE vehicles sold on lease deals. Due to the cost of batteries EV manufacturers have to start at the higher end of the market where the margins are sufficient to absorb the higher manufacturing costs. This will get better with time. Already the MG4 EV can be had for £26k which isn't bad considering a basic Fiesta costs about £20k
Expecting some interesting (relatively speaking) developments in synthetic fuels in the next few years.
E-fuels will only ever be niche to keep vintage ICE on the road at weekends due to the huge inefficiencies in their manufacture.
Wind turbine/solar farm to wheel efficiency for an EV is 70-80%. For a fuel cell EV its 20%. Half that again for e-fuel burnt in a combustion engine. So if we are to drive on eFuels we'll need 7-8 times more renewables than simple sticking to EV.
Business travel was supposed to be dead. It’s almost fully booked.
But has capacity reduced? I work for a very large company and none of us are travelling anywhere. Customers aren't even asking any more.
a question please on tariff's. We are on a standard Scottish Power tariff and have an EV coming in the Spring. The nice chap from ChargedEV is putting in an Easee charge point as I type (they had a cancellation !). The Scottish Power website is pretty poor at explaining tariff change options, and it is, as ever, impossible to speak to them. So, knowing that someone reading this will have been through similar, keen for your knowledge, please !
I'm on Octopus Go. The cheap rate is between 0030 and 0430, and it takes about 2 days to completely charge the car from empty at those times (7kW charger). I think at the moment it's 12p/41p so you'd need to check the maffs quite carefully to see whether it's worth it for you, especially if you can charge at work etc for free.
Relatively lucky as I'm on the original tariff (7.5p/38p) and also have house batteries, so 99% of my consumption is at the low rate.
Their customer service has been pretty good on the one time I needed to call (they didn't generate any bills for my first three months).
https://share.octopus.energy/cute-dingo-92
If you use my referral code we get £100 credit to split between us.
Octopus uses a form of black magic to 'talk' to the car and charger via the app and schedules your overnight sessions to use the cheaper hours (probably linked to grid demand).
Octopus are so far ahead of the other providers in terms of the interaction between the app, home devices and the grid demand.
Never had an issue with them, the installed smart meters or the supply. Highly recommended.
Octopus Go gives you cheap electricity overnight so you can set your charger or car to charge then - and you can also do other things like run the washing machine or immersion heater.
Intelligent Octopus requires a supported car or charger (Ohme is currently the only one IIRC) that gives you cheap electricity overnight BUT also will charge your car at any time they choose, ensuring that it's ready at the time you have specified e.g. 100% by 7am weekdays etc. And ALL the energy going into the car is charged at the low rate regardless of when it happens. This is so that they can plan ahead divert excess energy into your car when it suits them (as well as you) e.g. on a sunny and windy day.
Both Ohme and Octopus are highly recommended.
very helpful, thanks, charger is an Easee so will look at Octopus Go once I have a confirmed delivery date for car
What car is it?
We can currently connect with Tesla, Jaguar, Land Rover, Ford,
and Volkswagen (excluding ID models), OR any car that uses an Ohme charger.
^^^ Audi Q4 etron
Think I'll join this thread now as 8 have an MG5 coming at the end of January.
Quite excited.
Actually not sure if by VW they mean VAG. You'd think they'd all use the same system...
Yeah, I wondered about that too…
My podpoint charger works with intelligent.
It's such a clever system.
Well, my company car scheme just opened again, no PHEV/HEV, no BEVs, all preconfigured with high value options (to improve resale value).
So, another diesel but with the 48V light hybrid system on it.
But nearly £15k worth of options i didn't really want.
On the plus side, there were plenty of cars cheaper and more frugal than a fully loaded petrol SUV at ~£850 a month and 35mpg...
On the plus side, there were plenty of cars cheaper and more frugal than a fully loaded petrol SUV at ~£850 a month and 35mpg…
jeez, that's a load of outlay ! Our Tusker deal at work would just about get a Taycan for that ! 🙂 well maybe not, but would more than cover a long range Tesla or similar.
The SUV in question costs a little more than a base Taycan and we're selling every single one we make at pretty much full price.
(The lease deal includes everything except fuel, insurance, service, tyres, hire cars if it breaks down, winter wheels etc.)
The lease deal includes everything except fuel, insurance, service, tyres, hire cars if it breaks down, winter wheels etc.
I assume that comma after fuel should have been a semicolon?
The lease deal includes everything except fuel; insurance, service, tyres, hire cars if it breaks down, winter wheels etc.
£850/mo? Blimey. That's not including the BIK tax?
You can do much much better for that kind of money.
so reading this one :
mert
Free Member
Well, my company car scheme just opened again, no PHEV/HEV, no BEVs, all preconfigured with high value options (to improve resale value).So, another diesel but with the 48V light hybrid system on it.
But nearly £15k worth of options i didn’t really want.On the plus side, there were plenty of cars cheaper and more frugal than a fully loaded petrol SUV at ~£850 a month and 35mpg…
and then :
he SUV in question costs a little more than a base Taycan and we’re selling every single one we make at pretty much full price.
I guess you work for a car manufacturer.... and they don't offer EVs to their own employees on the staff Company Car scheme. I'd love to see how that fits into the Company's ESG value proposition !