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Who the heck is going to want to pour money into starting from scratch? When the results aren’t as good?
Many car manufacturers trying and failing to do so though even with "simple" electric car charging . Seems it's not as easy a network to set up as many think.
bear in mind that to fuel even a fraction of the worlds projected need for H2, you’d going to need 60+bn litres of fresh, very pure water
Edit - That is a well-made point. And that energy for splitting that water needs to come from somewhere. Perhaps using it more directly would be more efficient?
Sadly, hydrogen comes from methane cracking now. And that still takes a stack of energy. This hydrogen is brought to you by some of the same companies you’re already familiar with from other fossil fuel applications.
Hydrogen is not a viable fuel source [for vehicles]. It is vaporware. It is there to maintain the idea of clean-burn engines and to cause FUD over a move to BEVs.
On hydrogen, to shift the language from ‘fuel’ to ‘energy store’ is just sophistry. It gets ‘burned’ with either phrase.
On the petrol-powered Nissan electric car 🤦🏻♂️ the inefficiency of an ICE coupled with a closed-off battery powered car? I am at a loss for words on that one.
Er you do know Volvo Cars aren’t a western company any more? They’re owned by Geely.
Err yes ofc, that's part of the point though - Polestar aren't generally perceived of as a Chinese car company, much less Volvo. Volvo have a long history pre-Chinese acquisition and they associate that far more with the brand than it's current owners. It also no doubt helps there's a lot of Volvo parts used on Polestars and similar design language. A purely Chinese car company doesn't have that advantage (among other things).
It’s not actually a problem though, not really. More of a very mild inconvenience.
Unless you're a lone female and need to hang around some charging area for however long.
We've been through this before, charging parks tend to be out of the way and like it or not there are bad people out there.
Even Tebay has its chargers off in some far corner of the car park (southbound at least) meaning even if you head inside you still have a long walk to a secluded part of the car park.
This isn't a slight against EVs before anyone starts, just an observation based on our society. You can pretend it doesn't exist but it's not going to make the problem go away.
If you plug into a fast charger and don’t have to queue (the lack of a queue big is really important here) then 20-30 mins later you’re back up and running. As said above that’s just part of normal stopping regime for a long journey.
I agree. But...
The problem is increasingly the lack of queue, or having the chargers actually all working. In the 18months I've had an EV this has got noticeably more of an issue. The quantity of fast chargers has not increased anywhere near fast enough to keep up with the extra EVs now hitting the market. This is also an issue at destinations - my workplace has around 15 chargers at one office. This was great up to about last September / October - i could do a long journey in the EV, get enough of a top up to get home while working and then drive home. Then the new replacement company vehicles started to arrive and i was then only able to access a charger by arriving before 8am (i live 2hr from the office) and even then, not guaranteed. This means I now take a petrol car to these meetings (personal not company car) as I need to be able to get home without another 30 to 40 min stop on the way back.
It will get there, but my view on EVs for longer journeys has really changed in the last few months, simply due to the extra numbers on the road and the infrastructure not being up to the job yet.
We are off on holiday to scottish islands this summer, and despite our EV being much nicer and a bit bigger than the petrol car, petrol is what we will take so we can avoid charging queues and the added stress of fighting for a charge.
matthewlhome
This means I now take a petrol car to these meetings (personal not company car) as I need to be able to get home without another 30 to 40 min stop on the way back.
Is there no policy on max time on charge to stop people hogging the charging points.
We have a limited number of charge points at work and there is a strict 4hr rule - basically it means that the people who jump on them first thing have to move their cars around lunch time & the next bunch can then jump on.
its an interesting one...
people are generally pretty good, there are just so many EVs now. As an aside, I also learned that the bank of chargers will load share if they are all occupied - meaning that then everyone gets around 1kw, so they are pretty much useless!
Thats the other part of the infrastructure puzzle - work would install more chargers, but the network cannot handle it without significant upgrades. The building, lights, computers and canteen all need the same power.
Another issue that has developed is that the work chargers are only 13p/kwh, so as its substantially cheaper than most peoples domestic price, everyone with an EV wants to use the chargers at work. I believe this is because (as a major utility company) our electricity was hedged a long while ago. when this stops it may well alter behaviours.
It’s simple enough to get home charging cheaper than this if you use a half decent company with EV tariffs.
I agree, Matthew, for the first time in six years I'm considering using an ICE for a holiday. 🙁 The EV is going to be an expensive faff. Or we'll take the train and Bromptons.
I agree. But…
We're agreeing with each other. My statement re charge speed not being an issue is considering the future state where there are enough fast chargers around so satisfy demand. I agree with your "but..." statement too, as the reality is that right now and for the near term future this isn't the case.
Early adopter types will be willing to live with this and plan / work around it, but for the majority of "normal" users including those that don't want to change away from ICE in the first place this will be a big deal. Any lack of planning which results in issues and/or becoming stranded will be blamed squarely on the technology.
matthewlhome - Agree with your comments was going the EV route for next company car but we are unable to charge on site and what I had seen over the winter period with the queues at service stations think I will wait until I retire. I am currently doing about 22k miles per annum that is far too much sitting down doing nothing.
I’ve ordered my next EV recently, if it goes through as I’m being cheeky with the delivery date. Real figures show 260 mile range is easily achievable, that covers about as far as I’d drive before stopping plus some. Then I’d be needing a break, refreshment and relieve myself too. By the time I’ve done that the car will be easily ready to at least another 150 miles are more. Not as cheap to run as they were until last year but still reasonable. I’ve never had to queue for a charger, only had one issue with one and that was in York as they had built the charge part into the bay, so I couldn’t fit in the bay without blocking the access road.
It also no doubt helps there’s a lot of Volvo parts used on Polestars and similar design language.
PS1 and S90 share a lot of components. But it's definitely more at the custom built end of the spectrum.
PS2 and XC40 BEV/C40 BEV are pretty much identical once you strip the body shell off. Electronics, hardware and software. You can get a PS2 (or PS3) serviced at any Volvo dealers to the best of my knowledge.
PS3 and EX90 will also share a lot of the part number count.
It’s not actually a problem though, not really. More of a very mild inconvenience.
You don't deal with customers/the public much do you?
What is a mild inconvenience to some will result in legal and/or death threats from others.
A customer connecting to a 50/80/whatever kW charger and only seeing 20kW charge speed on the DIM genuinely results in call centre staff at the charger company or on the cars on call service getting sworn at and threatened, and legal letters demanding a buy back of their faulty car.
Charging speed really isn’t an issue (or at least won’t be once the network is developed and home / destination charging is commonplace).
Some places it'll never be commonplace...
We’ve been through this before, charging parks tend to be out of the way and like it or not there are bad people out there.
Even Tebay has its chargers off in some far corner of the car park (southbound at least) meaning even if you head inside you still have a long walk to a secluded part of the car park.
Yes I agree lots of, especially older chargers, are stuck at the back of trading estate car parks but in defence of Tebay South which are Tesla superchargers they are situated about 50 metres from the Westmorland Farm Shop. There are a couple of Gridserve chargers at Tebay northbound but again they are right next to the services building.
Here's as example of how it can work. On Saturday I picked up my new Tesla Model Y at Trafford Park Manchester. I needed a quick juice up to get home as it only had 20% charge so popped over to the supercharger hub at the Trafford Centre never having experienced the Tesla network before. It being Saturday afternoon at the Trafford Centre and with drivers picking up their new Teslas all day I assumed due to bitter experience with non-Tesla networks I'd be waiting a while to get on a charger. Got here and spotted a free supercharger and just as I parked at it another came free. Later I had a look at zap-map and saw that there are 18, yes 18, superchargers at that hub so no wonder I didn't need to wait. So as William Gibson said, the future is here its just unevenly distributed.
On the petrol-powered Nissan electric car 🤦🏻♂️ the inefficiency of an ICE coupled with a closed-off battery powered car? I am at a loss for words on that one.
TBH, except for the lack of an external charging port, it's not actually a bad idea for markets where electrical charging infrastructure is cack. Emissions and efficiency of the ICE can be massively improved if it only runs at fixed speeds against a fixed load to charge.
Drac
Full Member
What are you getting @Drac?Oooops! Q4
I had a Q4 on order with Tusker from last June till last month and the delivery date kept going back; it was showing laterally as September this year, so I cancelled it and ordered an i4, which is currently showing as July delivery.
Fingers crossed ..
I’ve just checked our Tusker and a load of Q4 e-Tron’s have just come into stock for immediate delivery…
^^^^ ah well 🙂
Interesting, at present I'm looking at a Q4 or i4 when my current deal ends.
^^^^ ah well 🙂
Don't worry - the i4 is nicer anyway (well, I think so anyway evidenced by the fact I ordered one, hence am also rather biased).
I'm driving a Q8 ETron (or rather the 2022 model which has now been rebadged as a Q8) now which although nice and comfy is very dull to drive - clearly deliberately so as Audi have gone for "quiet luxury" rather then "fun".
Yeah! I know people months over their delivery date so went ahead and ordered. Watch it rock in July instead of November.
(our gas meter is in an odd place and been told they can’t change it and will only do the two meters together).
Maybe take that further with your supplier. Octopus installed my smart electricity meter. I should have had a smart gas meter installed at the same time but it wouldn’t fit because of some weird configuration of the pipes in the meter box but there was no problem just installing the electricity meter.
Coming back to this in case it's useful to anyone. Our electric/gas supplier is Eonnext, who turned us down for installing an electricity smart-meter as they didn't have access to do the gas meter at the same time. I've discussed it with them and the situation is that the rules are this way for dual-fuel customers. If we were to change our gas supplier to someone else then they would be OK to update the electric meter in isolation.
Vw id2
2025, affordable, hatchback (although still seems to attract the crossover moniker somehow.)
Appear to have listened to feedback on the interior touch screen.
Lead picture had me thinking it was a three door, reminding me of the golf’s of old, but alas it appears to be a 5 door.
VW can't even sell you a Golf for £22k today. No way will the ID2 be on sale for £22k in three years time- that's even if reaches the market in three years.
This is interesting to me. The new Mercedes c300e has a 60 mile electric range and it's "only" £46k new. Could be a great option for our use case - local driving with the occasional long run or towing trip.
Picking up my EV6 GT next weekend and I'm quite excited to say the least
No way will the ID2 be on sale for £22k in three years time- that’s even if reaches the market in three years.
for one with a sensible battery, I'd agree, however it wouldn't surprise me if some manufacturers start selling cut-battery cut-motor options cheap to get folks in the showrooms (especially as the market slows down). for a city car (as a second car to something else), a lot of people would be happy enough with ~100 mile range and 100bhp
The city car EV with short range would be perfect for so many people but they also have to be cheap. No-one wants to spend £32k on a cheap runabout. £20k is more like it. Ok so it's more than an Aygo, but if you are driving 40-50 miles a day you'd make more than the difference back.
Chargers. I was just out ad about in leith and saw 8 charging places and not a car in them. this is in a residential area. One thing I noted was that you are only allowed in them for 3 hours. Is that the norm?. so come home from work at 6 pm and put the car on charge you have to go out and move it before 9pm.
Just interested if that is the norm for chargers
The city car EV with short range would be perfect for so many people but they also have to be cheap. No-one wants to spend £32k on a cheap runabout. £20k is more like it. Ok so it’s more than an Aygo, but if you are driving 40-50 miles a day you’d make more than the difference back.
agreed, but the polo starts at £20k (and a lot of them are probably used as second cars). I think a £3k premium for an electric version would be reasonable?
incidentally, the tesla model 3 has been discounted again, down to £38k now (so no posh car tax either) - nearly £10k cheaper than it was 6 months ago
Most chargers you see are the slow ones at 7kW, you can tell because it's a much smaller box and there's no cable attached - you need your own. Rapid chargers, the 50-350kW ones are huge, full of cooling hardware and have a big thick cable or two attached. The problem with the slow ones is that the rate of charge is too slow to be useful unless you're going to be parked up for hours. They're ideal at hotels or workplaces, or on streets with flats etc; and they're the same power as the home ones people install at their houses.
If they are in say a town centre car park where people are going to be parked up for an hour, there's really no point in plugging in. One of our Tescos has free ones but I never bother, I'm only in there for 20 mins.
agreed, but the polo starts at £20k (and a lot of them are probably used as second cars). I think a £3k premium for an electric version would be reasonable?
Yeah probably. I'm looking at EVs but I've ignored ICE prices and they seem to have gone up a lot whilst I wasn't looking!
The real problem with small EVs is lack of decent cheap used ones. That'll change of course as the current range of actually good EVs with decent battery management and range start to trickle down.
The ones I saw said 40 amp? 10 kw?. only 3hrs allowed at them. seemed odd to me.
Yeah that does seem odd. No use to anyone living in a flat, for the reasons you say, and no use to people visiting town who can charge at home.
Must be why they were empty!
Picking up my EV6 GT next weekend and I’m quite excited to say the least
My dream EV... Jealous!
DrP
£38k for a LR Tesla Model 3 and access to the supercharger network is a great price.
Where's that price?
£52k on the Tesla site...
DrP
Er you do know Volvo Cars aren’t a western company any more? They’re owned by Geely.
Geeley own 50% of Volvo, and Polestar are split between the two of them. Polestar offer performance products to Volvo, as well as having their own EV’s, and they share service networks.
The ID2 looks like a replacement for the eUp!, designed as an EV rather than based on an ICE design. A new eUp is currently about £24k. There should be some savings possible in the manufacturing process by having designed it as an EV, so £22k isn't impossible, although that would only be with the smaller battery size. The eUp has 32kWh battery and a nominal range of about 160 miles.
Ironically, the selling point for me was being able to fit a roof rack, which was only because it was ICE based. Not many EVs will take a rack.
Geeley own 50% of Volvo
Geely bought Volvo from ford 15 years ago.
This is interesting to me. The new Mercedes c300e has a 60 mile electric range and it’s “only” £46k new. Could be a great option for our use case – local driving with the occasional long run or towing trip.
Just realised it's actually a PHEV. On that basis that's not bad especially if you could somehow program it to switch modes depending on speed (so electric in 30mph zones or accelerating).
That Tesla though, that's a good price. Smart Summon seems a bit, er, surely you're not allwoed to do that??
Smart Summon seems a bit, er, surely you’re not allwoed to do that
IME summon is a gimmick in the U.K. the constraints on range between phone and car mean that it is always quicker just to get in and drive. Smart summon more so. This is on 3 different Teslas: S, 3, and Y.
Only real use is moving the car up and down the driveway when gardening and caked in mud or extracting from spaces when folks have subsequently parked super-close.
YMMV and the documented USA summoning seems useful. If scary.
Edit: My SO’s Model 3 SR I’ve found fun and surprisingly practical for a saloon when I’ve used it. We’ll be saying goodbye to it in august/September if anyone’s interested in buying a 4 year old one then. Unsure whether we’ll replace it with another Tesla or go down to one car.
Finally joined the EV club myself (second-hand Polestar 2 LRDM with all the packs). Loving it so far, driving is so much simpler (granted a lot of it is the fact it's the first non-manual car I've owned). I thought it would take me a while to get used to one-foot driving and regen braking but it just seems natural (although I do wonder if my emergency braking reaction time might reduce over time, hopefully I don't need to put that to the test though...)
Acceleration is insane but without driving around like a total dick you don't really get to experience it much (I still hope for red lights and being at the front, I'm sure that will wear off soon though...)
Why the heck is the 'gear' selector order R-N-D though, as in pull back on it for Drive and push forward for Reverse?! A couple of times I've selected the wrong one without thinking so now force myself to look at it before moving it.
The main negative for me is the lack of visibility, not just the small rear window but generally just a feeling of being much more disconnected from what's going on around me but I guess I'll get used to that soon enough.
I'm lucky to have a few 150Kw chargers a couple of miles from me (yes I did look a tit trying to use one for the first time, mostly as I wasn't expecting the spring effect on the rigid charging cable to cause the handle bit to shoot out of my hands as I removed it from the charging station...). Bit crap though it only only does 150Kw up to 30%ish and by the time you're at 70% it's down to 60-70Kw (I know it's for battery health). Getting my home charger installed next week so shouldn't need to use a charging station apart from the odd big trip.
Why the heck is the ‘gear’ selector order R-N-D though
Because that's how it is on every other automatic car...
Ironically, the selling point for me was being able to fit a roof rack, which was only because it was ICE based. Not many EVs will take a rack.
One of the reasons I adore my Leaf!
DrP
Megane takes a roof rack as well......... https://www.flickr.com/photos/33589130@N03/52768650084/in/dateposted/
Yep, I was surprised at the number of EVs that either couldn't take a rack at all or the solution seemed a bit of an afterthought.
The i4 has a decent rack mounting system, being based on a normal ICE BMW.
^^^^ wonder what a rack does to the range though ? I have ordered the towball as a factory option. That said I do often carry an ebike, so the roof option doesn’t really work.
There's a chap in my road with a camping tent on the roof of his Tesla!
A rack will ruin efficiency of course- scaling as you go from just the bars to a bar and bike rack to bikes actually being on it.
I’ll do some tests once I’ve got it - same trip with the bike in the car or on the roof, and with with the bars fitted but bike inside to see the difference. Not just being nerdy but also to help plan trips away - range hence where / whether to charge etc.
I imagine a towbar rack would be less of an impact - I wanted a towbar on the i4 for that reason and also because it’s less faff to out on and take off, but budget allowance didn’t allow it (at the time you needed to pay for the towbar AND a circa £1k options pack to get the button which deploys the bar which took outside my allowance). That button now seems to come as standard but hey ho too late for me now.
A bike on a towbar rack does impact economy a fair bit in my experience, but as said they are super easy to remove. I do remove roof bars when not in use, but that's me.
So I've not done proper efficiency figures... But at 30mph on a flattish road with either bike, or just rack, it's a actually a minimal difference to economy.
But.. 60-70mph and the mpWh suffers!
DrP
AND a circa £1k options pack to get the button which deploys the bar which took outside my allowance). That button now seems to come as standard but hey ho too late for me now.
I had to add a comfort pack when I selected the towbar option, which I think was about £1000 total
Last couple of cars I have had a towbar fitted by a towbar company at around £800 a pop so felt it was ok as a factory option.
Why I would never buy a second-hand EV. The cost of a replacement battery would be much higher than the cost of the actual car. A replacement engine on a ICE would be actually affordable.
https://insideevs.com/news/658962/tesla-roadster-ev-battery-end-of-life/
Have you read the article?
It's about a specific model of a niche car that has been fitted with a component that fails. It's not exactly representative of a wider issue, as the article points out.
So first Google results tell me a brand new battery for a Tesla Roadster (now very much a classic super car) costs $29 000 and a rebuild of a Ferrari engine of the same vintage costs $40 000 dollars.
Given the cash saving on fuel over the life of a battery replacing the battery on the Zoé if it dies after 8 years will be cheaper than a reconditioned engine for a Cléo plus the additional fuel cost.
You logic is back to front on EVs as usual Countzero. When I compared running costs of the Zoé and Clio the longer I keep the Zoé the more it will save me, even if it needs a new battery at 10 years which is unlikely given how most 11-year-old Zoés are doing.
Replacing the entire battery isn't the only option. Below is quite an old video so this sort of diagnostic work will more than likely grow a market of small specialists.
had to add a comfort pack when I selected the towbar option, which I think was about £1000 total
Yes that was it. Towbar was £900 from memory and the comfort pack was £1000. There was nothing else I wanted in the comfort pack hence I was looking at a £1900 towbar. Aside from value for money, my car allowance (company car) would not allow it.
To be fair, this isn’t an EV issue, it’s a BME issue - I believe the ICE version of the same car had the same issue.
I wonder if an aftermarket non retractable towbar is an option - would be much cheaper.
Yes, an expensive option, but I couldn’t see an easy alternative, esp as I regularly transport an eMTB. Mine is on a Tusker lease through work so I just added it on..
Also noticed that since I placed my order for the i4 40 they have now bought out a 35, with smaller battery, lower range and almost £10k lower price..
I do think I prefer the idea of extra range and performance though 😁
Just joined the growing ranks of EV drivers with a second hand BMW iX3. Found one with a folding tow hook so bikes will go on a rack at the back. Hopefully that won’t destroy the range.
We were looking for around a 300 mile range (not real world obvs) and 30 min charge speed (10-80%). Test drove a whole list of cars (ioniq 5, Skoda enyaq, ev6, id3, id4) but finally went for the iX3 given the drive quality and goodies.
Had the full spectrum of charging experience so far (from “this is easy what is everyone worried about” to “standing by a charger in the rain downloading apps and uploading card details”, “being blocked”, “being iced” and back to “this is easy”)
I’ll let you all know how it is to live with…
Looks like the love child of a Humvee and a Suzuki Ignis designed by Lego and built by IKEA. Interesting indeed 😆
You might think by that comment that I hate it. I don't. Quite the opposite actually. Except that windscreen rake (or lack thereof).
Replacing the entire battery isn’t the only option.
Quite so. Here's a vid of the analysis of an old Leaf Bjorn Nyland bought with 40% battery state of health. Looks like the culprit might be one bad cell. Will be interesting to see if replacing that cell does the job. Cost is about £1000 of which only £155 is the battery cell and the rest labour.
Just joined the growing ranks of EV drivers with a second hand BMW iX3.
good choice 😉
Just coming up to 16 months (13500) miles in mine MSport Pro. It’s been faultless and a pleasure to drive. This time of year getting around 230 to a full charge ( did a 330 mile round trip today). Mostly at 70 with return journey in the rain.
@revs1972 - we also went for the Pro. Great to hear positive experience. Not sure I’ll ever understand all the gadgets but the HUD has been a revelation and I’m loving the heated steering wheel.
I’m yet to try the battery pre-heat function ahead of DC charging to stop coldgating - has it worked for you?
Woody
Rain has a huge impact on range.
Why does rain have such a big impact?
I think it's the amount of water you have to move around driving on a wet road. I haven't done a lot of motorway trips in the wet in my EV but it would take 10% off the average MPG in the Prius.
Why does rain have such a big impact?
Presumably as you're shoving water as well as air out of the way + wipers + lights + demisting/blower/heater. It's also not uncommon for there to be strong winds with heavy rain.
I've never bothered to look at the fuel consumption in different conditions in any car I've owned but I suspect this isn't an exclusively EV/hybrid issue.
I suspect this isn’t an exclusively EV/hybrid issue.
correct, this applies to any kind of car/vehicle etc
Wipers and lights run off the standard car battery and won't make any odds on range. Can't say I've noticed much difference in range in the rain it's the temp that affects it the most I find.
Wipers and lights run off the standard car battery and won’t make any odds on range. Can’t say I’ve noticed much difference in range in the rain it’s the temp that affects it the most I find.
whilst that is entirely correct….
You do know where the power for the 12v system comes from don’t you ?
I’m yet to try the battery pre-heat function ahead of DC charging to stop coldgating – has it worked for you?
I do 95% of charging at home and when I’ve charged away from home I haven’t given it much thought. I’ll have to look into it.
And yea HUD is a gamechanger . In fact I like it so much , I have specced it on next car . I think it is something that should be standard on all cars.
The BMW HUD is far superior to any other car I have tested though.
Lots of toys , have you run the relaxation program yet ? Got to make sure you have the Aircon in the correct setting though
I don't think wipers and lights make a lot of difference, it's the water on the road. You can feel the deceleration when you hit a puddle; of course standing water on motorways isn't usually that bad but it's constant and adds up.
What tyres are you all running?
I've michelin eco things on my Leaf - though they're EV specced and LRR, they really do spin out quite often.. I'm not trying to accelerate like a nutter, but Brighton is hilly, and often when accelerating out of a junction UP a hill it'll spin spin sugar...
I REALLY wanna stick michelin crossclimates on it, but reaf it'll bugger the range...
DrP
Are they they OEM tyres? OEM tyres are crap versions of after market tyres even though they bear the same names.
The current best energy saving premium tyres that I know of are Bridgestone Turanza T005.