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If you want to measure the development of EVs then looking at range in isolation is a poor measure. It'd be better to look at something like range per tonne of vehicle weight - that'd capture improvements in drive train efficiency as well as in battery energy density.
Double post
it’s very jerky as it changes then I react to take over
Is there not a setting to adjust how quickly it responds to these things?
Pass, it's not frequent enough to have bothered looking at it in any depth, it's just annoying on the occasions it happens.
There's an option to turn off the "set cruise to speed limit" function, and the "slow to glacial pace because there's a bend, roundabout or whatever" feature too. And they don't turn back on at restart unlike the speed and lane warnings.
Oh this is good to know! Although I do quite like being able to just hit 'Res' and have it auto go to whatever the current limit is...
What spec have you got??
The very base spec, no options or anything (not that it really needs any).
About 250 miles.
That’s enough for all but edge cases and , as the technology gets more efficient they’ll just put less battery in each car to make them lighter / cheaper / more eco friendly.
That's lower than it is now. I'd say that's quite an optimistic view of the future 😀
It would require the charging network to improve to the point where people didn't worry about being able to charge when they stopped and for people to buy cars based on what they actually needed rather than what they thought they needed. The first is certainly possible, but given the number of people using a hulking great 4x4 to take the kids to school, the second seems unlikely.
I can see a bit of a divergence in the next few years though; with long range being used as a selling point at the luxury end of the market while at the other end cheaper batteries lead to reductions in cost for vehicles with a more sensible range. Since I said median range I guess it's not impossible that this does come down a bit as a lot more cheaper EVs get sold.
I'd hope that customers and manufacturers are smart enough by then to realise that most people, most of the time don't actually drive that far. Then start focusing on charging speed/infrastructure and km/kwh. So the couple of times a year they need x00 mile drives, they can stop for 10 minutes after 200 miles and charge their sensibly sized battery back to 90%.That's lower than it is now. I'd say that's quite an optimistic view of the future 😀
that'd capture improvements in drive train efficiency as well as in battery energy density.
This..
I love watching the 'munroe live' youtube videos where they strip down the latest EVs and motors, and really geek out about them.
One recent(ish) video they had the latest VW reduction gearbox, and were commenting that simple improvements in its efficiency (like, just 3 cogs..) have drastically improved the efficiency of the whole vehicle.
And other simple changes happen too; the latest Polestar 2 disengages the front motor/gearbox at stable speeds, which again improves its range over the model I have. All little things that add up.
DrP
I'd hope that customers and manufacturers are smart enough by then to realise that most people, most of the time don't actually drive that far.
So do I, but I'm not sure what there is in the history of car manufacturing to suggest that will be the case. At least in the UK. Maybe in France where they have more of a history of "cars for the masses" with things like the 2CV, R5, R4 etc.
they can stop for 10 minutes after 200 miles and charge their sensibly sized battery back to 90%.
I actually think that ten minutes is probably the worst. Too long to just sit and wait for it to charge but not long enough to go grab a coffee/snack. Unless you can get charging times down below five minutes they might as well take half an hour. I think what we need is a change in mindset from refuelling being something that you try to do as quickly as possible to recharging being something that you do whenever you are not using the car anyway.
Personally I expect that solid state technology will lead to the production of cars with ranges over 600 miles. There will be a lot of fuss about these in the press and they will serve a useful purpose in silencing those people who say they will only get an EV when it can go as far as their diesel car. But whether many people actually buy them is another matter.
Well my work has changed the goalposts. Was set on the Megane but they have asked to find something with more range, simply to cover more journeys and have a buffer over winter. So, the Megane is out the window and it's back to the Born and the Scenic. I test drove a Born last night. Mostly liked it. A pillar window seems odd, but I'd get used to it. It was the VZ, so stiffer suspension etc, but the ride was good but firm. I don't mind that. The V3 77kwh is what I'm likely going for now.
Interesting, in light of the earlier conversation, if employers are going to start demanding that company cars have longer ranges than people really need.
Are you going to test drive the Scenic @stcolin? Google OS and that single button to set all the driver aids the way you want them would be a big plus for me, but it is a bigger car than the Born so it would be interesting to know if it feels much bigger to drive.
By the way, I know the VZ version of the Born has the newer (higher efficiency) motor and the upgraded infotainment system with radical new developments like backlit heater controls that you can actually see in the dark 😀 Not sure if those have made it to the V3 yet.
Personally, although I accept that 250 miles is all most people need most of the time, I think 350 might be the sweet spot. A bit of a buffer and enough to ensure that you still get 250 in the winter. Much more than that and I'm not sure I can see the point though.
I see BYD have announced a new architecture and charger to deliver a sub five minute charge. So, I'm sure we are not far off the 600 mile range car that can add 200 miles in under five minutes. Totally pointless for most people and probably a cul-de-sac in the evolution of EVs but at least those people who are daft or stubborn enough to want to drive an EV in exactly the same way as they drive an ICE car will have an option 😀
Not sure if those have made it to the V3 yet.
Yes, they have. Infotainment was very fast and the I didn't mind the touch screen controls for the heaters etc. Can be voice controlled anyway. I might test drive the Scenic to see how it feels compared to the Megane.
I can see a bit of a divergence in the next few years though; with long range being used as a selling point at the luxury end of the market while at the other end cheaper batteries lead to reductions in cost for vehicles with a more sensible range.
They will make cars with multiple battery options, as they do now.
I'd hope that customers and manufacturers are smart enough by then to realise that most people, most of the time don't actually drive that far
Right but people still want to be able to do the edge cases because they are the most fun parts. I could do most of my journeys in a 24kWh Nissan Leaf but I don't want to buy one.
If people come out with cars that can charge in 5 minutes, the chances of actually being able to find a charger to supply 1MW are pretty slim IMO. I don't think installers will install them either. Much harder to supply, so they'll put a few in premium locations, charge £1.50/kWh, and most people will realise they aren't in as much of a hurry as they thought they were.
In other news, the BYD Dolphin Surf is launching in the UK at £18,650 which makes it one of the cheapest cars of any fuel type on sale in the UK.
So do I, but I'm not sure what there is in the history of car manufacturing to suggest that will be the case.Cost.
Adding range to a fuel car is just a matter of a bigger tank and packaging headaches. The on cost is minimal.
Adding range to an EV is direct cost for every kwh.
If people come out with cars that can charge in 5 minutes, the chances of actually being able to find a charger to supply 1MW are pretty slim IMO.Maybe in your impoverished island state... 😜 But a reasonable sized battery, charging in 10 minutes won't need anywhere near 1MW, i mean, if you want to stick to 80-90-100 kwh, you'll need that. But as i said, i hope the market wakes up.
Right but people still want to be able to do the edge cases because they are the most fun parts.What? Sitting in a car for 500+km without a break is fun?
What? Sitting in a car for 500+km without a break is fun?
Well, you know I'm a massive EV fan but there are still issues. Your 300 mile car could become a 180 mile car with bikes on the roof and back, or 150 miles towing. Then charge that to 80% and you are having to stop quite often, and trying to figure out what to do with your caravan or trailer. It takes quite a committed EV fan to attempt a long caravan trip. However the situation change quite a bit if you can get hold of a 600 mile car. I'd get one if it were available and I could afford it. It if were a choice say between a 300 mile 1 year old car vs a 600 mile 4 year old one at the same price, I'd get the older one.
Thinking that people who need (want) to stick bikes on the roof or people that tow caravans are even remotely going to influence EV development is, frankly, insane.
Following numbers are from Google so add salt to taste....
Caravans (tourers) in the uk? 555000. Cars in the uk. 33.93 million.
0.16 percent (assuming my Friday afternoon maths hasn't let me down).
No way is less than 0.2 percent of the EV car market going to in any way influence what is produced.
It's more likely to be some lobbying group getting the government to set targets / change tax rules that make larger, longer range vehicles more profitable / desirable that will do that!
I wonder if the Camping & Caravan Club have a politcal lobbying team?
Your maths let you down🤣,.
It's about 1.6%, so still not a large percentage
We’ve just ordered our second id3. We’ve had this one for 4 years and just over 40000 miles and it has been fantastic. The new one will have the bigger 77kwh battery which will make trips around Wales that little bit easier.
However, the bigger battery has inspired us to pull our fingers out to sort home charging which we can’t currently do due to on street parking. We’ve been fine with public chargers (and Pembs is surprisingly well served with them) but the cost have increased recently.
We have a process we can follow with the council to ask permission to put a kerbo-style cable channel across the pavement so now need to sort a suitable charging facility on the front of the house.
(We can park outside our house 99% of the time and are good terms with our neighbours).
I don’t think we can fit a proper charger on the space available (mostly due to the chunkier plugs, sockets and cables) so I’m looking at getting someone to cut a chunk out of the render to allow a waterproof and lockable 3-pin socket to be put low down on the front of the house. Our leccy box is by the front door so connecting it on its own circuit should be ok.
What ratings do I need look for in the socket, wiring etc? I WON’T be doing the work but want to be able to have an informed chat with an electrician.
We can then come home after work and most nights trickle charge off a granny charger for at least 12 hours which will be great.
I’m sure there might be other solutions you can think of, which I’m keen to hear, but I’m pretty sure this is the most cost effective route for us.
Cheers
Just back from test driving the Scenic. Nice car. Didn't feel as quick as the Megane, obviously as it's about 150kg heavier. Very nice interior, easy to drive, and comfy. So, time to decide if it's that or the Born V3.
Only thing I don’t like about my Born is the fact it can’t take roof bars (saving up for a sea sucker now).
Did the Scenic feel bigger to drive than the Born? It is on paper, but I guess you weren't driving on paper 😀
@roverpig Yea it did, but not by much. The born is a narrow car, I could sense the extra width and length in the Scenic. All I need to do now is find a V3 for as cheap as possible. One dealer told me they don't negotiate on pricing, it's set by Cupra and that's that.
I've also started the process with EON to get a charger installed. Hopefully that doesn't take too long.
Yea it did, but not by much. The born is a narrow car, I could sense the extra width and length in the Scenic. All I need to do now is find a V3 for as cheap as possible. One dealer told me they don't negotiate on pricing, it's set by Cupra and that's that.
Thanks.
Interesting. There is a dealer in Glasgow who would seem to disagree as they are offering a £5,500 discount on a new V3. Maybe show that to your local dealer 🙂
There are also dealers in Lincoln, Ashford and Hatfield offering five grand off list price for a brand new V3
Expect that discount is the "deposit contribution" they offer it you buy on their finance and wouldn't be available for a cash buyer (though if you're a cash buyer there's nothing to stop you going hrough the finance hoops and withdrawing/paying it off when you get back from collecting the car)
Yes, fair point. Always worth checking the details. One of the other dealers did say:
"Also available is the 0% APR with £4,500 finance deposit contribution. Subject to terms and conditions. Complimentary home charger available."
Which might be a better deal if you are looking to get a charger anyway.
Yea I saw that. There's also one in Lincoln that's a similar price. I'm off on holiday now for a week, so I'll take another look when I'm back to work.
Opinions - I car I want in a rare specification is available, but, after 3y and only 26k miles, its battery health check has come back as 85%. However, the range and energy consumption are pretty much bang on for what it should be.
when I check our i3, it is also at 87.5% at 4y and 20k miles, but is still doing 190-200miles just like it did when new.
What to do? Walk?
This is a main dealer car with a 2y manufacturer warranty and 5y on the battery.
Different cars report battery health differently. In reality, a chunk of degradation is guaranteed in the first year or so as with any battery, however the manufacturers know this and factor it in by reserving some headroom so your 58kWh battery is really a 65 or whatever. You just never get to see the top 10%. This is done to preserve the battery's health but it also means that even if you are at a true 90 or 85% your car still reports 100% on the dash. The question is how does the OBD report battery health? It seems that some cars report the true health, or have done in the past; and some report the state of health factoring in this buffer.
It seems that the original Nissan Leafs reported the true health which is why they showed a lot of battery degradation, but people aren't necessarily sure.
Me again.... So I went to test drive the Skoda Elroq on Saturday to keep my options open. Nice car, great spec, but a little boring...Some nice deals on the 85 models with various dealers. Chatting with the boss tomorrow to confirm what budget he will let me have. The Cupra is still my main choice as it is a nicer interior and sharper to drive than the others.
On another note, I contacted EON about installing an EV charger. I supplied photos on my gas and electric meter boxes but they've come back saying no evidence on gas or water supply bonding. Incoming water pipe is plastic, and looking at the electric install cert the gas is bonded, just not visible in the box. It's a new build (3 years) and already have a 3-pin car charger socket so I assume everything is in order.
Anyone driving a Kia EV3 gt line ? Keen on real world experiences. Have watched loads of online reviews, mostly all giving it a big thumbs up.
Saw an EV6 yesterday. I'm sure they are great cars but they look rubbish.
EV6 is also around 10k more to purchase than EV3, based on list price. It wouldn’t make my short list. I have enquired about costs to fit a towbar for bike rack to EV3…gulp, about £900 plus vat.. I had one fitted to an Audi Q5 about 5 years ago and it was a good few hundred less than that.
I supplied photos on my gas and electric meter boxes but they've come back saying no evidence on gas or water supply bonding.
I had a similar issue. It was ChargedEV who did my instal through OVO (my supplier) and it was the oil supply that wasn't bonded as there was no need for it to be. After supplying various pictures they said it needed to be bonded and added something like £100 to the quote to do so.
When the installer turned up he took one look at my setup and said there was no need for bonding the oil supply.
There were various other issues with my instal which meant that I hadn't actually paid the invoice in advance, so I could just get them to issue a new invoice without the bonding rather than have to try to get it refunded.
Saw an EV6 yesterday. I'm sure they are great cars but they look rubbish.
EV3 and EV6 are quite different looking cars though.
I test drove an EV3 GT-Line yesterday . Very nice, good seats, few hard plastics inside but quiet and fairly quick acceleration. Display was a bit annoying as there's a section in the middle which is completely obscured by the steering wheel. Squared off steering wheels still take some getting used to! Has a reasonable mix of touchscreen and physical buttons though.
Not as nice inside as my Volvo XC40 but that's leased and high spec and more than I want to spend on my next car.
I liked it more than the Elroq and ID4 I tested. And under £40k with a reasonable spec.
Haven't kept pace with the thread, but need a new family car and are torn on whether to try electric on stick with ICE.
What are people's thoughts on second hand EV's, especially ex-lease cars.
For instance, I've seen one with 99k miles on it (only 1k of battery warranty left) but has a battery certificate showing the battery retaining 94% capacity. Too big a risk?
Budget is probably up £12k-£14k for electric. If buying ICE I'd reduce that budget, EV budget higher due to savings on fuel costs (we did nearly 20k miles last year).
Mine was 3 year ex lease but low mileage 23k compared to that. However the lack of things to go wrong in general makes me wonder what the mileage limits are now, of course tyres, brakes and shocks will need doing eventually but the rest in comparison to ICE?
On the costs, that's what I came to mention. As I'm almost exactly 6mo in I calculated through.... 7600 miles at 3.7mi/kWh = 2054kWh. A quick check through Octoverse and I have only used 120kWh in paid for at a cost of £52, the rest has been at 8p or even for free at work, so another £154 so just over £200 in total.
7600 miles at 40mpg = 855l, even at today's lows of £1.41/ltr that's just over £1200 so I've saved £1000 in fuel cost. It cost me £850 to get the charger in but I'm saving now, I also have paid £200 a month for the car but extrapolating to 4 year ownership and amortizing the charger over the first ownership (not really fair as wife now has EV too, and I suspect we'll be on EV period now so could really spread it over much longer):
Car cost £9600 (200x48)
Charger £850
Saving on fuel per year = £2000 x 4 = £8000
So in total it'll cost me about £2500 over 4 years (but I got rid of a car with 100k miles and a looming belt/clutch/dmf bill and I'm in luxury in comparison)
I'd have liked it to have been closer to parity but diesel prices are low currently
I test drove an EV3 GT-Line yesterday . Very nice, good seats, few hard plastics inside but quiet and fairly quick acceleration. Display was a bit annoying as there's a section in the middle which is completely obscured by the steering wheel. Squared off steering wheels still take some getting used to! Has a reasonable mix of touchscreen and physical buttons though.
have just been for a test in one too, quite impressed, and that’s coming from a lease bmw i4..
Saw an EV6 yesterday. I'm sure they are great cars but they look rubbish.
Assuming that’s a typo and you meant EV3?
The EV6 is, in my opinion, quite a pretty car. Especially in black, quite Batmobiley
The EV3 is more….challenging.
It iz a chonky boi but doesn’t quite pull it off in the same way that the EV9 does, by dint of sheer mass.
The EV4 is quite an interesting thing to look at. An unholy union between the EV6 and the EV3 but I quite like it.
A quick check through Octoverse and I have only used 120kWh in paid for at a cost of £52, the rest has been at 8p
So now your wife also has an EV do you need to get another charger?
How does octopus [Go] deal with multiple electric cars at the same property?
Does it allow multiple chargers running during the same cheap period or do you need to alternate the [8p] charging days?
Octopus Go is just cheap overnight rate, we don't have the cars or charger to do Intelligent and Octopus dont know which car is being charged. So, we just alternate, in reality with the miles we do I need to charge 2-3x a week and her once, maybe twice so we have about 50-75% usage (and we can only get one car on the drive anyway). But I guess if we had 2 chargers they'd both be at the same 8.5p rate; the issue would be more likely to be the current draw running 2 simultaneously would prob see the supply exceeded and then the charger senses it and throttles rate back, so 2 chargers giving 3.5kW each is no advantage.
I have only ballsed planning up a couple of times where we both needed it and so I've needed to top one of us up out of cheap hours - and then it's a just enough amount at 29p, so hardly crippling.
7 days with 5 cheap hours per day and 7kWh rate, that could give us 245kWh in total, almost 1000m/ wk.
[Edit - wife has had car since March, does 500miles per month max, so uses barely more than a night's worth of charge per week]
I have an Ohme Home Pro on Intelligent Octopus Go.
I have an EV and my wife has a plug-in hybrid. The Ohme app has improved a lot since I started using it 18 months ago and now allows to choose which car we are going to charge before plugging in.
Last week’s app update allows us to view ‘usage’ by vehicle and shows the cost of each charging session.
I can't see from Octopus which car was charged, but I can see my Kona's charging via bluelink, and I can see total via either Octopus which tells me usage in 30 min windows, so I can see 0030-0530 usage (not all will be charging but only vampire devices like tv on standby etc so to all intents), or via the charger phone app controller that gives a true amount delivered.
current setup at home is Octopus Intelligent Go, BMW i4 and Easee charger. The car is on a salary sacrifice lease and the charger supply and install was part of the deal when I ordered the car 3 yrs ago.
IO recognises the car, but not the charger, so all works seamlessly most of the time.
I am however this week getting rid of the i4 and replacing with an EV3, which unfortunately isn't compatible with IO. I contacted Octopus and they have moved me to Octopus Go, the only real difference being that it gives 5 hrs cheap rate from 0030 daily, rather than IO finding time slots to get you to charge target by, say 0700. I'm presuming I'll need to set a start time in either the Kia App or the Easee App.
Assuming that’s a typo and you meant EV3?
Actually EV4 I think? Not an EV3. It was a random observation not related to the current discussion 🙂
Re high mileage cars, we bought ours at 72k, it looked and felt new, and it still does at 85k.
Saw an EV6 yesterday. I'm sure they are great cars but they look rubbish.
Assuming that’s a typo and you meant EV3?
The EV6 is, in my opinion, quite a pretty car. Especially in black, quite Batmobiley
The EV3 is more….challenging.
It iz a chonky boi but doesn’t quite pull it off in the same way that the EV9 does, by dint of sheer mass.
The EV4 is quite an interesting thing to look at. An unholy union between the EV6 and the EV3 but I quite like it.
I think Kia have done a great job with their range really. The EV6 looks like a modernised iPace and the rest manage to look modern without looking OTT and you can instantly tell that they're from the same brand.
Compare and contrast to the mess Hyundai have made of their Niro and EV6 equivalents. The KONA looks like a budget crossover blob that your mum drove in 2014 and the current Ionic 6 is genuinely repulsive to look at, probably the ugliest mainstream car on sale (at least the facelift improves the front though).
I'm presuming I'll need to set a start time in either the Kia App or the Easee App.
That's what i do - set the charger to start at 0030, run for 5 hours, every night, and if there's a car plugged in it'll charge to the battery limit set on the car. Which is set at 80%, unless doing a big trip in which case I'll change that to 100%
Or I can switch the charger to manual mode if I need to top up in general time, then rather than faff on the app i just set a phone or even cooker timer to remind me to switch off again. Literally one press on the button for on, another for off again.