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There are plenty of companies doing recycling but they haven't been able to scale up because there isn't enough supply of batteries to recycle. As above, they are being repurposed. They won't be thrown in a hole, there are too many valuable raw materials for that.
Re small cheap cars - there is much less margin on these. Capacity for making EVs is limited at the moment, so they may as well put the tech into the higher value cars that generate more profit so they can invest in production. My guess is that the market for EVs currently is probably heavily driven by company cars which don't tend to be small. The other issue is that quite a few small city cars are bought by young people who may well want to drive across the country in them, and truly short range cars might be a turnoff.
Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.
Those who drive 1000km in a single hit without any stops to visit their dying Aunt Dora once every 3 months have pretty much put paid to reduce. Materialism and the capitalist/"free market economy" don't help...
Reuse, there are at least half a dozen OEs and a dozen startups/3rd parties looking at how to reuse the batteries once they won't produce the current to move a car properly, conservative estimates reckon on discarded car cells being good for another 15 years in a house or for domestic type use (lighting, heating, light duties), if they can be structured and packaged properly (cooling/BMS/etc). Tesla claimed to be doing it, but the last i saw (two years ago maybe?) they were still using brand new cells. They may have moved to reuse by now.
Recycle, technically i don't think a single EV cell in existence has actually got to the point it needs recycling, but there are 3 or 4 facilities in europe at least who are doing what seems like a half arsed job of it. Another handful in China. No idea about the US.
There are EV battery packs that are too impact damaged / fire damaged that have to be recycled. Then there are all the illegal PLEVs that are being seized by the authorities.
Eg. Black mass recycling https://www.iconichem.com/black-mass-recycling
There are a couple of others.
The impact damaged packs are being recycled in France, they were pretty much the only ones available when recycling started as battery packs are lasting rather well. There have been a couple of TV reports. They claim 70% of the lithium is recovered, almost all the metals and the residue left can be integrated in building material.
Those who drive 1000km in a single hit without any stops to visit their dying Aunt Dora once every 3 months have pretty much put paid to reduce.
I think it's a little unfair to blame people for not buying an EV when the infrastructure isn't there to support the journeys they make (even if only rarely).
Our government decided that the best way to support the transition to EVs was to subsidise manufacturers to produce expensive company cars (through changes to the BIK rules). I can see why they did that. Without that support it was hard to see how existing car manufacturers would be able to compete with new (mainly Chinese) companies, so this looked like a way of supporting a move to EVs and also of protecting some UK manufacturing jobs. But the result is that it provides incentives for manufacturers to make (and consumers to buy) bigger more expensive EVs. I guess they hoped that the market would provide the charging infrastructure but by supporting the manufacture of expensive EVs they also make the business case for installing chargers harder. Basically, you need to be able to get your money back quickly (before longer range EVs become available) and that drives up charging costs and makes EVs less viable for anybody who can't charge at home.
An alternative approach would have been for the government to use the company car BIK income to support installation of more chargers instead. But it's too late for that now.
I guess they hoped that the market would provide the charging infrastructure
I think it is - chargers are flying up all over the place.
I think it is - chargers are flying up all over the place.
True but the price/kwh is pretty high and I expect that puts a lot of people off buying an EV. Also the market only ever provides the profitable bits of the network so people can still point to charging deserts as a reason not to make the switch. I'm not saying all of these excuses are legitimate, just trying to understand what the barriers are to wider uptake of EVs.
Think it depends on where you are...there are several spots that have chargers around me, but they aren't in ideal locations i.e. easily leave car to charge and return. I think 2 main streets in town have got street parking with chargers included - which is fantastic...but almost all the spaces are taken by ice cars (with several EV cars parked along other streets).
Things are improving but it isn't happening quickly in all places, I think demand is there, but it is low due to infrastructure not being in place, if that can improve then more EV cars will be getting used.
True but the price/kwh is pretty high
Yeah, I suspect this is set to provide enough profit to re-invest, because the main factor for choosing a network currently is availability - so to get market share the operators need availability not low price. Once the road network is saturated with charging locations, they'll have to start lowering prices - and that's ok because they won't need as much investment.
I think it is - chargers are flying up all over the place.
That doesn't mean they're going to be cheaper though - there are many thousands of petrol stations.... doesn't make them cheap. And in the same way if you want convenience, i.e. on major routes, you're going to have to pay for it.
Once the road network is saturated with charging locations, they'll have to start lowering prices
Why? See above..... we have thousands of petrol stations and that has not necessarily meant cheap fuel.
True but the price/kwh is pretty high and I expect that puts a lot of people off buying an EV.
My list in order of importance:
- Can't pull my 3500kg boat/trailer combo
- Cost of the cars (even used)*
- Still questions over longevity
- [Range
- Cost of public fuel**]
* My current car is 12 years old, is a lovely place to be and is still absolutely fine for my needs so why spend more?
** I could charge at home so it's of little interest to me
I think it is - chargers are flying up all over the place.
Maybe where you are they are, certainly aren't in many parts of the UK. and that is a problem.
I don't have a problem with anybody who says an EV isn't for them. Personally, I don't see any point developing EVs or charging infrastructure for people who want to tow heavy loads. There aren't enough of those journeys for it to matter, so let them keep running an ICE car for the trips when they are towing.
I suspect the switch from ICE to EVs is baked in now but it will be slower than it would have been if different decisions had been made a few years ago.
See above..... we have thousands of petrol stations and that has not necessarily meant cheap fuel.
Retailer margin on petrol is about 8%, on diesel about 4% - literally pennies out of the cost - which doesn't include the costs of running the petrol station. Most goes on tax. It might not feel like it but fuel's already in a price war.
That doesn't mean they're going to be cheaper though - there are many thousands of petrol stations.... doesn't make them cheap.
That's probably because the oil for the fuel comes from another country and it is taxed heavily?
I think the price of charging at EV stations will slowly decrease as wind and solar increases. Even now when there is excess energy in the grid there are periods where charger operators can drop their prices to use up the excess. My local petrol station has EV charging and the price is displayed on a digital board with the petrol and I guess they will lower the price occasionally. Only seen this at the Poppleton park and ride at York before.
I guess that battery energy storage systems will also mop up excess supply in the future as well so there will be additional completion for the cheap power.
As for battery recycling and repurposing I think the current trend for home energy storage systems is using lithium iron phosphate batteries for their longevity and cycle life? The 18650? Li ion batteries that power my ioniq will be recycled in 10yrs time or go up in flames in a crash.
Most goes on tax.
According to Google that's currently a £25bn revenue stream. I wonder what will function as a replacement. For context VAT raised £169bn in the same time frame so it's not a small number.
I think the price of charging at EV stations will slowly decrease as wind and solar increases
Wholesale electricity is a traded commodity and its price is determined by the marginal cost of generating the next unit, which is usually by burning gas.
The gas price depends on supply/demand and will fall as wind and solar (and nuclear) increase. Check out how much gas France burns and the electricity price.
https://www.rte-france.com/eco2mix/la-production-delectricite-par-filiere
there are many thousands of petrol stations.... doesn't make them cheap
They are cheap insofar as they are putting very little margin on what they sell. The thing is that petrol for your car is a product that is created in response to specific demand. The petrol station is just the end point in a long supply chain dedicated to that product. However, the electricity for your car is the same stuff that is produced for a huge variety of things, the wholesale price is determined by a randomly variable supply and a fairly steady demand.
The gas price depends on supply/demand and will fall as wind and solar (and nuclear) increase. Check out how much gas France burns and the electricity price.
France doesn't determine the European wholesale market price though. I take your point in general terms, but the market is in dire need of reform, and until that happens, the price will continue to bear little relation to the actual cost of generation. It also should not be assumed that increased renewable and nuclear penetration will lead to lower wholesale costs, with the Hinkley C CfD being the most egregious example.
Timed via a tapo smart plug.
Careful on that, maybe not for you, but a lot of WiFi/smart/ZigBee/z-wave plugs are only rated to 2.2 kW continuous power, some less. (Some of mine are only 1.8, had one burn out a couple of years ago, which is why i checked!)
Bought some full spec ones to replace, but that model has been discontinued now.
I think the tapos are rated up to 3kw 🤔 when I last looked at the box.
Not had any issues with them but next time I'm drawing a lot of power through one I'll point my thermal imaging camera at it and see how hot it is getting 🔥
https://www.tp-link.com/uk/home-networking/smart-plug/tapo-p100/
I'm only taking 10amp for the car.
I draw more from the electric heaters I control with them (2.7kw).
But I will take on board your experience and dial down the power a bit.
FWIW the granny charger that came with my Hyundai is limited to 10A but you can also knock it back even more.
It also should not be assumed that increased renewable and nuclear penetration will lead to lower wholesale costs, with the Hinkley C CfD being the most egregious example.
Why can't I assume that ? Renewable in particular is really cheap to produce. Hinkley point leccy is predicted to be 16.7cents per kWh according to Google which is somewhat less than the 100cents I was being billed for UK public chargers other than Tesla.
Home solar is so cheap now it's worth having a few panels for personal use even if you never sell back into the grid. One of my friends has gone off grid and another has two sets of panels. One set which sells to the grid up to the French domestic limit of 3kW and the other which provides for the house but is blocked from feeding back to the grid (he's an electronics whiz but it can't be that hard). The car charges and all his appliances run when those panels are producing, some goes to batteries and the rest is wasted. With the current cost of panels and inverters he's quids in even with all the waste. Here you can buy panels that that have a domestic plug and you simply plug them in without an inverter, when you're consuming they reduce your bill and if you're not consuming the electricity company gets the surplus from you for free.
Why can't I assume that ? Renewable in particular is really cheap to produce.
Because as I've already said, the cost of production is not well linked with the market price and you haven't accounted for financing. You mentioned Hinkley, the CfD strike price currently sits at more than 12p per unit wholesale and is index linked, so good luck delivering that to the consumer at the 16.7 cents you claim. More than 60% of Hinkley's strike price is made up of various financing costs, CfD is a particularly poor financial mechanism for funding very large and long term infrastructure projects
Quelle surprise
Elon's obviously a massive helmet now, and I'm not a fan of the cars themselves, but I'm going to change my van for an electric car soon, and Tesla's lease costs on a new gen Model Y and their supercharger network means that's probably where my money will go. I'd rather think about the workers in Germany I'm helping to support in a factory within Europe, rather than a factory in China who are building so much of everything else...
So, justification over, here's the question for Tesla owners...
Is the Tesla Nav as good as everybody says? I drive to the Alps every year from the north east, and I hate hassle, do I just put the route in the car and it takes me to the Supercharger as and when without any stress?
So I’m a few thousand miles in to a 2023 non-long range model Y. For context it’s a work loaner while I wait for my ID7, and it’s replacing my diesel A6, so I’m not a ‘seasoned’ electric driver.
I’d make sure you go and sit in the Tesla and ideally drive one. My comments apply pre new model version. The sat nav is decent, it works it out, but it doesn’t automatically or easily use non Tesla chargers. So you have to get a bit more involved.
My concerns are more around the rest of the car. The seats are horrifically uncomfortable for me and the non-adjustable headrest kills my neck. The suspension is awful, as is the steering. The general quality of the car is horrible. The touchscreen UI is, for me, rather unintuitive and very fiddly to use.
I’m very grateful to have been lent the car, but I’m certainly not sorry to see it go. The charging etc works really well, superchargers are a great easy way to do it, just make sure you can live with the car. The value they represent is hard to argue with, I agree and understand!
Thanks northernremedy. I will definitely drive it first. I drove a previous gen and took it back after about ten miles because the suspension was so unbelievably wooden, but the cabin quality was poor and the build quality felt pretty shocking too. They reckon (mostly) that the new one has addressed a lot of the issues, but if it's not night and day better then I'll look at something else.
Curpa hybrids and VW ID7s are also pretty good value right now on lease, but nothing is as cheap, and with cheap running costs, as a Tesla for a comparable size car and range (and I definitely don't want Jaecoo, BYD, Omado and so on).
Yeah that’s where I ended up too. I would caution the Y boot isn’t anywhere near as big as the numbers suggest, it’s got lots of underfloor storage which is hard to actually use and also weird deep pockets either side. The boot isn’t as massive as you’d believe
Elon's obviously a massive helmet now
Just now? Has he ever not been?
I know what you mean about German workers but...no. Nein.
For me it would be like listening to a Lost Prophets album and trying not to think about who was singing. Actually it would be like listening to a Lost Prophets album with the windows wound down driving past a children's play park with all the parents starring wondering who the massive helmet was.
I dont see that the Tesla network is all that, at least not any more. I've never wished I had access to it. In fact the only time I had the opportunity to use one I didn't because I'd have had to leave the motorway and I couldn't be bothered.
Access to the Tesla supercharger has been a game changer for crossing Europe, Molgrips. In Holland we used nothing else, in Germany almost nothing else and here in France they are by far the most reliable network there is and one of the cheapest. Boycotting would just be too painful.
For me it would be like listening to a Lost Prophets album and trying not to think about who was singing.
Yeah, fair play. For me though, I've got a VW van on the drive and a little BMW fun car who both had a lot more to do with the Nazis than Elons last 18 months, so I'd feel a bit of a hypocrite. Both powered by oil probably dug out of the ground in countries whose civil liberties I find hugely objectionable.
Well, that, and the Chinese batteries powering the Apple device I'm typing on while I nurse the tired legs from taking my diesel van out to the woods to ride my (carbon) bike for fun.
Virtue signalling past me right by a good few years back.
Edit: Sorry, that reads more passive agressive than intended, was just trying to make a point.
While we are on the subject of Tesla navigation; it’s rare these days for me to type a destination into any satnav. More and more I just click on “get directions” on some web page on my phone or get the directions from an app like Strava that will give me driving directions to the start of a route in either Google or Apple Maps. Is there any equivalent of that in a Tesla? I know there is no CarPlay but does that mean you have to find the coordinates of that remote trail pull out and type them in or is there some other way of sending a location from your phone to the Tesla navigation?
I'm 8K miles into model Y ownership, bought pre Maga/ salute.
All that aside, it's a superb car for the money IME.
I find the sat nav really good, although I don't drive anything else to compare it to. It will pick up on places pretty quick when you start typing, father than having to search the whole address.
If I'm looking to find a Google pin for something more off grid then I'll just use the phone. I haven't messed about trying to integrate search between car and phone, it's just not worth it for me.
The statement above about the wider charging network being as good as supercharger is laughable in my fairly limited experience.
It's usually twice as expensive, four times slower, and eleventy times as likely to not be working at all.
I hate that I'm shilling for them, but the truth is the competition is way behind at a given price point.
is there some other way of sending a location from your phone to the Tesla navigation?
Yep, in whatever app you used to find the address you can just tap on "Share" and you'll see the Tesla in the list of apps you can share with. That sends it straight to the car.
Quelle surprise
If Tesla have fixed their odometers to over-read, it's probably to exaggerate the range. More servicing business and early expiry of mileage based warranty would be bonuses. If it's true, it could kill them - worse than the VW emissions cheat.
shilling
Not sure I see it as shilling (or choosing not to as 'virtue signalling' - for me that's a label that sits nearly alongside 'woke' as used by right wing politicians and DM readers, saying more about the user than the person it's used against).
It's more 'enabling'. Musk has the power and audience built on profits and a reputation for 'financial and business acumen'. Buy a VAG group/VW isn't going to bring Adolf back from the dead, but buying into Tesla (or Starlink, or X) is playing your part in perpetuating Musk's axis of influence.
Yes it's probably a horse has bolted situation and my Amazon order history from the last month does show a good deal of hypocrisy - but I couldn't do it. Opinions clearly vary.
They are as ugly as **** too which helps make my 'virtue signalling' easier 😀
^^ Like I say, Convert, my post was a bit more aggressive than I meant it to read - I wasn't trying to cause offence. I completely get the feelings people have towards him (I'm no different) but it wouldn't stop my buying a car or sticking a Tesla battery on the side of my house. Maybe it should, but it won't.
Anyway, different point. I've just picked up a new Y Launch Edition to have over the weekend. I've driven it home from North Shields (really good service in there) to Newcastle and where I turned the last Y around after 10 minutes I made it all the way home in this one. It feels like a big, heavy car with soft suspension and wallows around a bit, but feels well damped now, and unbelievably quiet.
Cabin quality isn't BMW/Audi/VW group, but it's a big jump up, it feels like a nicer place to be. Audio quality as good as it always was.
To the point about the sat nav though, it is really impressive. I whacked in Les Gets, and this is what it pulls up. The car is currently on 48% so obviously it would be less stops on a full charge. I just want something to make it easy, this looks really impressive (f it works). 
I get that as cars and chargers there's a lot going for them, but sometimes making a stand includes a bit of self sacrifice. Might be virtue signalling but I'd rather have a more difficult EV owning/charging experience than put anything Musk's way.
As for the VW etc comments. It was a long time ago and part of the history was the acceptance, apologies, reparations. I see none of that from Musk, now or likely in the future, just doubling down. I wouldn't have bought a VW in the 40's (I know, wasn't the choice) and I won't consider a Tesla now.
That'll work, Iamtheinsurection, I'd suggest filling to 100% in Geneva or Megève to avoid faffing with a destiantion charger.
I’d also say that the nav tends to err towards very short stops. The reality is you’ll need to stop for some food and to stretch legs, and you may find you run of time to do so it’ll charge that quickly. Just done a trip to the Ardnamurchan and back from North Yorkshire, we did a one stop strategy south of Glasgow and it worked an absolute treat. By the time been for a wee, had some sandwiches and grabbed a coffee it had gone from 10%-100%
I'll leave the politics to one side. Mainly because I don't think I've got anything new to add to what has been said on the issue ad-nauseam. But I'm still interested in the question of whether a Tesla is really still the best choice of EV.
You can argue about whether they truly invented anything, but there is no doubt that Tesla played a big part in changing the perception of what an EV could do and for a while if you wanted an EV that could do everything (including long trips) with the minimum of fuss the advice to "just get a Tesla" was pretty good. But other manufacturers have caught up and Tesla don't seem to be as innovative as they once were. It's debatable whether Musk ever wanted Tesla to be be a mass market manufacturer of cars. If he did then he'd probably have brought out a low cost model years ago rather than focusing on a very expensive and seemingly commercially disastrous truck. I don't know whether Musk is just distracted by other projects or whether he only ever saw manufacturing of cars as a stepping stone to something else, but one by one the reasons to "just get a Tesla" seem to be disappearing.
There are still things that Tesla does differently, but it's less clear that any of those are actually an advantage. For example, while pretty much every other manufacturer gives you phone mirroring Tesla want you to connect to apps directly through the car (and pay them a subscription of course). So, you get a version of Google maps for navigation (but not really the full version you get on your phone) you can connect directly to Apple Music and Apple Podcasts. So in theory you can use those without even needing your phone. But how often do you travel anywhere without your phone these days and is that enough to make up for not being able to use other apps (such as BBC Sounds). Yes I know you can stream via Bluetooth but that's a pretty poor solution when you have a massive touchscreen on the dash.
The charging infrastructure is still just about an advantage if you spend a lot of time on the road, but the decision to open those chargers up to other manufacturers has dramatically reduced that advantage and suggests that Musk is more interested in generating revenue from chargers than he is in driving sales of his cars. Yes Tesla chargers tend to be a bit cheaper, but for anybody who does 90% of their charging at home the cost of on-the-road charging is pretty insignificant.
Mapping that tells you where to charge and for how long is now pretty common. I think Tesla still does a better job of predicting how much battery you will use on a journey, but other manufacturers are catching up there too. Cars running Google automotive, for example, will tend to show you a wider range of chargers and apps like ABRP will let you state whether you prefer lots of short stops or fewer longer ones.
Self driving is something Tesla make a big noise about, but European regulations coupled with Tesla's decision to tie a hand behind their back by removing radar sensors mean that other EVs often do a better job of the stuff you are allowed to do (e,g. less phantom breaking).
The new model Y is by all accounts a better car than the old one, but mainly just because the suspension isn't so wooden. Other than that it's mainly just some design tweaks. Plenty of other EVs have better driving dynamics than a Tesla these days and the lack of any big improvements does make you wonder whether Musk is that interested in development of cars for sale to the public.
Parts availability for Teslas seems to be poor as well. This leads to longer waits for repairs and higher costs of providing hire cars which (along with the performance of the cars) drives up insurance premiums. I did a few checks with my current provider and I could easily end up spending £500 a year more to insure a Tesla than some of the alternatives. Will that get better or worse over time? No idea, but nothing Tesla have done over the past few years leads me to believe that they are really interested in supporting their drivers over the longer term.
If you are just interested in "borrowing" a car for a couple of years and you don't mind supporting Musk then I think you could just about argue that a Tesla is possibly still the best option. But it's pretty marginal these days and if you are looking to keep a car for a decent while then I think there may be better options out there already.
Personally I don't think the Tesla is a stand out vehicle anymore, cetainly not the X and S. The 3 had the advantage that at times it's been extremely good value for money, but not anymore. The Y has never appealed.
I have an EV6, I have access to superchargers as well as many other chargers. I have buttons and steering console controls I like, and I prefer that to a screen. I have the range I need , I have high charging speed , good reliability and a very long warranty.
I'm very happy with my choice, and that includes the fact that I really didn't want to give money to Elon Musk. But I'm also very pleased with the car.
I'll be honest tho', if I see someone in a newly registered Tesla, it tells me something about that person.
Just out of interest @wbo do you find the having to physically plug the phone in for mirroring to be an issue?