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Out of interest, what is it (specific features, performance numbers, styling, finance etc) about the model Y that makes it head and shoulders above the rest that might ‘force’ you to hold your nose?
It's a combination of lots of small things really, but mainly:
Ease of charging: Most of the time any modern EV would be fine as we would charge at home, but a few times a year we will drive 500 miles in a day (and probably over 300 miles at least half a dozen times a year). Doing that over Christmas reminded me that when we do those journey we really don't want any extra faff. Opening up the supercharger network to other makes has reduced the advantage, but the fact that you can just drive up to one in a Tesla, plug in and walk away is still a big plus.
Range: I like to keep a car for a while (say 7 years). So I look at the large crop of current cars with WLTP ranges around 250-300 mile and can't hep thinking that they are all going to look a bit dated in three years time when 350+ is the norm.
Maturity of tech: Lots of modern EVs are packed full of tech and when you look on drivers forums all you read are endless complaints about it not working. Flaky software, apps that wont connect to the car, cars that lock you out, navigation systems that think you are in the middle of the north sea, alarms that set themselves off for no apparent reason etc, etc. Tesla seem to be the iphone of the EV world. You have to buy into their ecosystem but if you do ten everything just works.
Also, while I'm prepared to accept that I probably don't need AWD to cope with the snow the recent spell of snow reminded me that clearance is quite important as various friends got stuck on our drive in cars with 5" clearance while my wife and I had no issues in our cars that both have 7" clearance.
And the Subaru Solterra ‘should’ be what I want, but its efficiency is dire.
We have the Lexus version of the same car (there is also a Toyota version) and I agree – efficiency/range is not great. Even in Eco Mode I struggle to get much more than 200 miles out of a full charge (my wife gets even worse but she can't get her head around driving an electric car like an electric car and just charges around with the heating on high, despite it having heated seats, steering wheel and even knee heaters, all designed to keep you warm but using less energy). And, after 5,000 miles it is averaging 2.7kwh.
It's a lovely car to drive though.
Thanks. I did see the low charging speed but I think this would only be an issue a handful of times per year.
I'm 2 months in to having a 21 Kona, which is the same car basically. I've done over 2000 miles and used public chargers twice, both times no issue. One (AC) was plug in and walk away for a couple of hours while we visited my MiL; the DC charger I used was advertised as 50kW but max I got (in the cold) was about 42kW, however if using for top ups that'll still give you 70-80 odd miles in a half hour stop.
If that's a handful of times a year that's no issue for me, and far outweighed by the owning experience so far.
roverpigFull Member
Maturity of tech: Lots of modern EVs are packed full of tech and when you look on drivers forums all you read are endless complaints about it not working. Flaky software, apps that wont connect to the car, cars that lock you out, navigation systems that think you are in the middle of the north sea, alarms that set themselves off for no apparent reason etc, etc. Tesla seem to be the iphone of the EV world. You have to buy into their ecosystem but if you do ten everything just works.
I think you're seeing what you want to see there. I now know a few people who've had Teslas past the honeymoon period and they moan about software a fair bit. Just google "tesla software problems" and you'll see there are plenty. My friend describes the software in his as being in "constant beta test" and that's on a 20 plate (i.e. you think it'd be pretty stable by now).
the fact that you can just drive up to one in a Tesla, plug in and walk away is still a big plus
I don't see how drive up, plug in, tap your debit card and walk away is all that much different. That's all I do. Biggest benefit I can see to superchargers is that they are half the price, but that's more or less what it is for non-Teslas too.
Looks to me like those tesla advantages are a triumph of marketing over reality, but everyone has to make their own decision over that. Very happy with our Kia over the last couple of years, it just works (and is extremely comfortable and performs very well generally).
You have to buy into their ecosystem but if you do ten everything just works.
Not a chance.
The screen going black and rebooting whilst driving is a biggie - in fact it even happened during a review on the Fully Charged Show. Its a real danger on the Tesla as it has no instrument dials or buttons so you lose everything and have to pull over till it resolves itself. I genuinely can't believe its allowed to not have an instrument cluster screen or god forbid, real dials separate to the main infotainment screen.
Also many many reports of dodgy door handles not retracting and one of the reps we have visiting had his Y brick in our car park and it had to be recovered to a main dealer for a complete reflash or whatever they do as the over the air attempt to resuscitate it didn't work.
I'm not saying they are any worse than others considering the numbers out there but they ain't infallible by a long way
Nobody mentions cost? how much is a Tesla, is it comparable with a practical ICE vehicle or is it in the performance car bracket?
New a Model Y seems to be a similar price to an Audi Q5 or a Volvo EX40 or VW ID7. The 'long range' Tesla does 311 miles which is only 20 more than the Volvo but a whopping 70 less than a VW ID7 at a similar price. I expect a Q5 would out-range the lot.
Model Y doesn't look very inspiring IMO and the 'Juniper' update is just as plain but with bonnet & boot lights. Interior's got as much excitement / personality as the current Y which sets a pretty low bar and it still only has one screen which is a bit Marmite if you ask me.
Even Tesla's USP of a supercharger network is being diminished as more and more charge sites get installed by the competition, they're even opening up the Tesla sites to non-Tesla's now too.
Full disclosure, I don't like Tesla's and I don't get the hype around them. The build /software quality doesn't seem to match the price tag and there are plenty of other manufacturers providing worthy alternatives that are either cheaper or better made (or both).
Just poking around on Zap Map, there are maybe 30-40x more non-Tesla chargers than Tesla Superchargers.
Question of when it becomes economical to get an electric car instead of an older model ice car? There is the extra cost of insurance and initial price. I would love to get an electric car but as I mostly use public transport (I live in Sweden) it would cost a lot to buy and run an electric car. So I have come to the conclusion that getting an electric car would cost a lot and not be very environmentally friendly due to not driving very much. At the moment they seem to be priced as a rich man’s thing and wondered how much the monthly cost of ownership was.
It's unlike ICE for cost of fuel, where fuel might be +/- 10-15% around the average between seeking out supermarket prices vs paying for a tank at a motorway services. So you might pay more if you always filled at motorway pricing, but it wouldn't be (%) that much more.
If you charge at home you could be paying less than 1/10 of the cost of fast charging. I showed my working out a page or two back, but on my mileage I'm saving £160/mo in fuel costs, comparing almost entirely home charging vs average fuel costs on a 1200mi/mo
Buying second hand I didn't see a huge difference in the cost of ICE vs EV, particularly on a PCP deal. The residual value at the end should offset the highr purchase price.
Ownership - only had a couple of months but told that servicing is way cheaper, there's very little to spend on stuff like oil and filters and the like, etc.
And I'm paying no extra for insurance - not sure quite where that idea comes from.
And I’m paying no extra for insurance – not sure quite where that idea comes from.
agreed. When I got my Born last year there was no cost to swap over from my Ateca and it’s actually dropped a fair bit on renewal last month. We were looking a a 500e for my wife and called for a quote and found it was virtually the same as her current car, a Fiat panda, all with AXA.
I have solar so that is one of the reasons I was interested but my current petrol costs are probably less than £70 a month. Still interested in peoples monthly costs. My current car is a Volvo v70 and cost about £5000 but was in great condition and it has had zero problems in 6 years. A decent electric car second hand would be around 3/4 times that price in Sweden. Here the full insurance doubles after the first 3 years. The maths just don’t add up
Well Muskrat doing Nazi salutes on live TV should knock another grand or two off the price of a model Y for anyone thick skinned enough to still want one…
My insurance went up by £170 a third to insure a 4 year old £10k Ioniq 38kw supa doopa version over a 16yr old Skoda Roomster £1k. The cost of running the car for the last 6 months and 5000 miles has been minimal, 1 £70 service, cheap home charging, sometimes less than 0p on the agile tariff. I saved £15/month from July 24 till April until whenever I get taxed on the EV.
I guess I'll loose money if I sell at this moment in time but I intend to keep this car for a few more hopefully trouble free years at which point I will have absorbed any depreciation and saved for a new un.
No more range anxiety and no more driving behind trucks, trying to eek out the range to the next rapid charge point on longer trips.
If you have a crappy DC charging speed, or you're an extreme cheapskate and won't pay for really fast charging you may have reason.
Us practical types just get on with it.
in fact it even happened during a review on the Fully Charged Show
Check out Jayemm for cars and his Tesla test recently. His 3 jammed the brakes on while cruising on the motorway and Tesla tried to blame him.
cheap home charging, sometimes less than 0p on the agile tariff.
I'm not sure that's working so well ATM with Agile prices being so bloody high ?
How many of you on here run an elec car but with no home charger - how much of a benefit is it over an ICE?
For those wanting to get a full electric car - after roughly 10 years of owning 2 Tesla's i will be reverting to PHEV which in my opinion is far the best option at the moment.
I believe electric cars aren't quite there yet. Charging outside the Tesla network is pretty bloody expensive and a real faff.
Until the range is a reliable 400 miles i'll stick to PHEV and ICE cars.
I went up to Wales from Surrey to do some winter mountaineering last week when the temp was -7 and i barely got 200 miles range (i have the long range Tesla Model Y). I know that the temperature is a rare occurrence, but it did make the journey overly stressful as when you get into Wales charging options are incredibly limited. I should have taken the Hilux...tons of mileage, but no whoopeee cushions!!
I believe electric cars aren’t quite there yet. Charging outside the Tesla network is pretty bloody expensive and a real faff.
That's a sweeping statement and possibly true (I don't have an EV yet) but a lot of people can run without needing external charging other than a couple of times a year.
And yes, thanks to the Welsh government/Councils there's little in the way of public chargers available - I use the A55 a lot, it's a busy road yet there's almost no charging facilities!
I don't have a home charger, but I've a charger about 150 yards away in a public car park. I also have the luck to be close enough to the office that I can park it up after work and get a few hours bike ride down as the car charges.
Work charge is free, public charging could be as low as 35p per kWh (with around 7kwh charging) up to 79p for a fast charge.
I've got access to plenty chargers near me so I'm not finding it a major problem. My biggest grumble is how often I can't get a parking space at the office during the day...and that is more just an inconvenience for me than a major drawback.
Biggest issue is the colder weather as I'm definitely seeing a drop in range so charging more frequently.
I have a home charger at home, but I work away from home.
For my use case EV and no charger is absolutely fine. I top up once a week to 100%, gives me about 190 real world miles. By the time I get to work I’m left with 70%. I top up in Tesco on a slow charger once a week. Gives me another approx 40 miles for about £5. I do this while I’m at the shops so time wise is fine.
I have just signed up to Lidl for charging, that’s a Medium charger so should work out better. I haven’t come close to running out, but I’m someone who likes to know I can jump in the car and know I have plenty of miles. There is also a fast charger a couple of miles away, but that’s at £0.85. Will only be used in an emergency.
(Audi eTron, rubbish average miles, 2.7 long term average over 12000 miles)
Re: Niro, while there’s newer cars with higher headline charging speeds, it’s more efficient than many. RSEV did a test a while ago of driving a bunch of cars including the Niro 160 miles one way, then charging enough to return. Actually not a lot in it for time, the faster charging stuff tended to use more power so needed more charging. And the Niro will do that reliably on any 100+kw charger with not much penalty for using a 50kw, no need to seek out special fast ones.
Always worth a play on abetterrouteplanner with routes you plan to do and cars you’re thinking of, you can spend a lot on extra battery capacity and charging speed just to save half an hour a couple of times a year.
Hahaha, I consider the local 22kw chargers as fast...there are 2 50kw chargers and they are a revelation as so much quicker, but I don't have access to them frequently. At the office I charge to 100% (mainly as it is free and I'm sitting at my desk for 8 hours), for public chargers they go to 80% charge.
I use the A55 a lot, it’s a busy road yet there’s almost no charging facilities!
Eh!? There are 11 rapid charging hubs on, or very near, the A55 between the border and the Menai Bridge including a nice Tesla Public Supercharger at Flint Mountain with 8 stalls and an Osprey hub at the same place with 12 chargers.
Until the range is a reliable 400 miles i’ll stick to PHEV and ICE cars.
Do you honestly ever drive 400 miles non-stop? 200 miles is 3 hours motoring in the UK and we should all be taking a break at that point for safety reasons so why not charge at the same time?
I can park it up after work and get a few hours bike ride down as the car charges.
Are there other people in the building at this time? Our insurance stipulated that cars should not be charged out of office hours, presumably because nobody would be able to react to a fire risk.
Do you honestly ever drive 400 miles non-stop? 200 miles is 3 hours motoring in the UK and we should all be taking a break at that point for safety reasons so why not charge at the same time?
I have had my Polestar for a couple of months now and I am actually loving the 200 mile mindset change. Stretching the legs and grabbing a drink is a real pleasure. The main problem for me is that the car charges too quickly whilst I am doing it 🙂
Do you honestly ever drive 400 miles non-stop? 200 miles is 3 hours motoring in the UK and we should all be taking a break at that point for safety reasons so why not charge at the same time?
In EV threads on STW in previous years, you could be forgiven for thinking that 60% of the STW population drive from Aberdeen to Morzine, every week, with bikes on the roof, without even stopping for a wee....
i will be reverting to PHEV
Ug. I had one and went back to diesel - it was the worst of all worlds.
Now have an EV and just get on with it. According to the app i am in the top 1% for doing miles and I can make it work.
My very first EV trip was 500 miles to Scotland and back. It wasn't that hard to adjust.
In EV threads on STW in previous years, you could be forgiven for thinking that 60% of the STW population drive from Aberdeen to Morzine, every week, with bikes on the roof, without even stopping for a wee…
Whilst towing a caravan.
Thanks for the Tesla comments folks. I read them all with interest.
I don't want to derail what has been an interesting thread about EVs by getting into politics, but suffice to say that Mr Musk's antics over the past 24 hours haven't exactly increased my desire to buy his car 🙂 Having said that, a bit of digging suggests that second hand Tesla prices are unlikely to have any impact on the Tesla share price. Car sales overall make up a smaller proportion of the Tesla business than you might think and it is still the case that the Tesla share price would probably drop if Musk left the company as a lot of the "value" is down to his ability to convince investors that good stuff is just around the corner.
On to the car itself, I did watch that Jayemm video and I agree that Teslas are not without their faults. To be fair, most adaptive cruise control systems will give the occasional case of phantom braking. My 7 year old Suzuki did it when a fairly large plastic bag blew across the road, for example. He did also say that Tesla got a lot of things right and there was a lot other manufacturers should learn from.
I have spent rather too much time reading EV forums and watching Youtube videos and I still get the feeling that Tesla drives on average are more happy with their purchase than drivers of other EVs. Where is the "Just Get a Kia" channel 🙂 I'll accept that this could be perception rather than reality though and could be down to a few vocal fans. It's hard to get an objective view on this really.
All said, I think I will renew my efforts to find a non-Tesla EV that I actually want, even if that probably will mean a few more months of ICE driving.
The maths just don’t add up
At £70 a month on fuel, no. They never will. Stick with your V70 until it dies.
I had one and went back to diesel – it was the worst of all worlds.
And mine (so far) seems to be the best of all worlds...
It does seem that it keeps coming back to range.
What do you all think will happen to the average range of EVs over the next five years?
On the one hand, it seems obvious that range will continue to increase If only to temp people who have never owned an EV into trying one) and it is the main thing that makes me pause. I like to keep a car for around 7 years and I can't shake the feeling that a modern car with a 250-300 mile range is going to feel pretty dated in five years when comparable cars all have ranges of 500 miles or more.
On the other hand, it could be that the charging infrastructure will improve to the point where range stops being a selling point and cars will tend not to have batteries that are any bigger than they need to be. In which case 250-300 mile range (possibly with faster charging speeds) may be the sweet spot. I recently drove from Norwich to Scotch Corner in one go. That's probably the maximum I'd do and took around four hours, but is still only 210 miles (it takes a long while to escape from East Anglia 🙂 ). Maybe home to Gretna Green (239 miles) is my absolute maximum (although nine times out of ten I'll probably stop in Dundee for a coffee). So why would I want to pay for a battery with a range of 500 miles?
We're looking at a private lease, test drove an id7 tourer yesterday, first time driving an ev, and was very impressed. Lots of kit as standard, huge amount of space and didn't seem to bulky to drive, in fact it was really easy. Pretty nippy when asked and so so quiet and relaxing.
There doesn't seem to be much in the way of negative reviews, which is promising following earlier ID models. Does anyone have any direct experience?
@roverpig I agree, reliable real-world 200 miles or so is fine for me. It’s not just cost, packaging 500 miles worth of batteries means compromises on interior and luggage space. Cars are big enough already.
I know a few second-time Tesla owners that insisted on long range first time but saved the money and went for the basic shorter range after. People tend to overestimate how much range they need and if you know you can charge easily on your journeys it’s a non-issue.
Where is the “Just Get a Kia” channel
It’s here.
Just get a Kia. Or a Hyundai. Or a Genesis.
On the other hand, it could be that the charging infrastructure will improve to the point where range stops being a selling point and cars will tend not to have batteries that are any bigger than they need to be.
It's not just the infrastructure - it's the cost. You can have as many chargers as you like but if you have to pay £0.80/kWh to fast charge* then people aren't going to be keen when running a ICE costs significantly less to run/mile.
reliable real-world 200 miles or so is fine for me.
I frequently do a trip to a location 110 miles away - as a minimum I'd need to get there and back without charging.... so anything >250 miles would probs be OK.
* If you can't charge while you're sleeping then it has to be quick.
As mentioned, no-one really needs 500 miles*. Whatever battery technology is in use, 60% more battery is going to cost 60% more. So you could get the same car with a 300 mile battery for £5k less, you might as well. That pays for a lot of kWhs at 80p. If you drive 300 miles in the UK you will pass thousands of chargers.
And yes, 80p is a lot, but as said given most people are charging at home it's a small price to pay. If you aren't charging at home, well, there are subscription plans. You can be sure the charging networks are keeping an eye on it and are keeping the price cuts up their sleeve until they need them. Seems likely that the main consideration for them right now is coverage and the number of EVs on the road, which mean they need to invest massively in new chargers. Once the market is saturated for both EVs and chargers then we'll have a pricing war.
* the exception here is those who want to tow. We would have ditched the diesel a long time ago if we could afford a suitable towing EV. If a 500 mile car were available and affordable I'd go for it. You can halve that range when towing and knock of 20% for a buffer on the road and you're looking at 200 miles which is what you'd want. Currently I could manage about 100-120 which is not that far.
I used a good analogy in a Facebook 'anti-EV' post last week..
"if you could pay 20p/litre of petrol for 95% of your driving, you wouldn't mind paying £4/litre on the rare occasion would you"!
with regards to range and batteries..it's all about 'energy density'.. then comes the dilemma: would i rather have a car with the same weight/volume of battery, but twice the range, or would i rather have a car with the same range (as current), but half the battery weight/volume..
For me that's a tough one as of course you could think "more range is better"..but when the battery in my car weights nearly 500kg 9with the structural supports), you can't help thinking the benefits that dropping 200+ Kg of weight and a large portion of volume could offer..!
DrP
“if you could pay 20p/litre of petrol for 95% of your driving, you wouldn’t mind paying £4/litre on the rare occasion would you”!
.... yes I would! And this obviously ignores those who cannot charge at home.
Surely range isn't the real issue it's the ability to be able to quickly replenish whatever fuel you are using, I've had ice cars that would only do 260 or so to a tank but obviously it only takes minutes to refuel, once we have reliable and fast charging then range won't be an issue.
…. yes I would!
hang on..you'd rather pay £1.41/l all the time.... Than 20p/l for the vast majority of your driving, with the odd minority occasion being £4/l....????
And this obviously ignores those who cannot charge at home.
No it doesn't. It doesn't ignore those who can't charge at home - though I agree it is making reference to the (pretty much unanimously agreed) point that an EV really only works if you have home charging (i.e making refernce to access to cheap fuel most of the time).
DrP