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I don’t think it helps the sales of EVs that the WLTP range is so far away from what people report in practice though.
Car manufacturers have always represented their car in ultra idealised statistics long before EVs were a thing. It used to be MPG at a constant 56mph on a rolling road with no air resistance.
Now it’s range because people don’t yet have a grasp on what EV efficiency numbers mean to them.
Is 3 m/kwh good or bad? The average punter in the street has no idea.
To be fair, some manufacturers are more honest than others. My car has a WLTP of 321 miles and if we had a week of 25°c a d I turned the aircon off, that would be achievable. getting 300 miles ish in the summer and 270-ish in the winter. It’s plenty
Thanks @stevemtb I doubt I'll actually buy anything for a while yet and may have moved onto something else by then, but we had a Smart ForFour many years ago and I've always had a bit of a soft spot for the brand. The Brabus versions were always bonkers and didn't even try to make sense really, which I like.
I don't think it's a matter of manufacturers' honesty it's just that the test protocols flatter some vehicles more than others. It's the same with ICEs. Small not very powerful cars will be driven by users much as they are in the test. However something like a Jag will go through much of the test procedure just tickling the trottle, whereas owners will use more of the performance available and get lousy economy compared to the test results.
I have no complaints about the range/economy of any recent cars I've driven. Drive gently and smoothly within the speed limits and I get pretty much what is claimed for that type of road in the tests in Summer. Less in Winter whether ICE or EV. EV owners might find they clear out the garage so they can keep the car in it in Winter because starting with a warm car/battery makes a big difference - I have.
Great, so now I have to build a garage too 🙂
I think one of the big issues with EV adoption is that we tend to compare them to ICE cars and focus on where they may be worse but forget that we live in a society that has been built around ICE cars. If we'd all grown up driving EVs and charging them outside wherever we lived then the idea of buying a car that you had to take to one of these newfangled garages miles away to refuel would seem bonkers.
They are a different transport solution really and require a different way of thinking.
One thing that I probably need to rethink myself is my obsession with AWD. I've always liked this for traction/safety reasons but with EVs a twin-motor seems to be more about bonkers performance than anything else. Of course, while I certainly don't need that performance, knowing that it exists does make it hard to resist.
I doubt there's a current EV that doesn't have ESP/traction control. I find that at least matches cars of old with a limited slip diff - and beats older generation 4 wheel drives unless they had diff locks. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with a current EV on Crossclimates in a whole variety of conditions.
Of course, while I certainly don’t need that performance, knowing that it exists does make it hard to resist.
You’d think so but that’s not been my experience.
The smooth power delivery and the quiet, effortless nature of the whole driving experience makes me drive slower and more calmly than I ever did in any ICE car.
It’s a more relaxed vibe and you don’t want to harsh your buzz with aggression.
EV owners might find they clear out the garage so they can keep the car in it in Winter because starting with a warm car/battery makes a big difference – I have.
Or precondition the car before leaving whilst its on the charger. Teslas heat or cool the battery when you do this- some other makes might.
EV owners might find they clear out the garage so they can keep the car in it in Winter because starting with a warm car/battery makes a big difference
really ? I reckon pressing the cabin preconditioning button on the phone app for my i4 around 10 mins of so before getting into it on a sub zero frosty morning takes maybe 15 miles tops off the range, and costs about 30 pence.
Car is fully defrosted, cabin is at 20 degrees or whatever I previously had it at, drivers seat and steering wheel are heated and warm.
This is one of the many joys of the EV experience.
Car manufacturers have always represented their car in ultra idealised statistics long before EVs were a thing.
Nah, just following the standards laid down by governments over the years. WLTP (and all the other standards over the years!) can only *really* be used to compare cars in the same sort of class/size/weight/performance.
It used to be MPG at a constant 56mph on a rolling road with no air resistance.
I've looked through reports going back to the 1980's and never seen that!
The i4 battery unit weighs 500kg. Now work out how much energy is required to get that from say zero to 12°C. Your cabin might be warm but the battery will take much longer to warm up.
Driving the Zoe out of the garage at 12°C everything works fine right from the off. Leave it outside in sub zero temperatures and even after 10 minutes of pre-heating the battery is still so cold there's a big red warning to say the regen isn't working, and the range is lousy.
I’ve looked through reports going back to the 1980’s and never seen that!
Exaggeration for comic effect innit. The point being that the advertised figures have always been at odds with the real ones because people don’t drive in the standardised way. It’s not just an EV thing.
Now work out how much energy is required to get that from say zero to 12°C.
I have no interest in doing that, overnight charging on IO is so cheap and I rarely need to use more than 50% of the range in a day. On such an occasion, after letting it warm up and driving it around on a typical cold West of Scotland icy, sub or near zero winters day, it still has 250 miles worth of range if starting off at 95%
even after 10 minutes of pre-heating the battery is still so cold there’s a big red warning to say the regen isn’t working, and the range is lousy.
sounds more like a shortfall in your car than a general EV thing ! 🙂
I doubt there’s a current EV that doesn’t have ESP/traction control. I find that at least matches cars of old with a limited slip diff – and beats older generation 4 wheel drives unless they had diff locks. I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised with a current EV on Crossclimates in a whole variety of conditions.
Interesting point. I noticed that most single motor EVs tend to be RWD and my experience of RWD cars is mostly watching older BMWs sliding all over the Aberdeenshire roads every time the snow fell. In truth we don't get the heavy snow that we used to get 20 years ago when we abandoned 2WD cars. The roads are also more busy that they were in those days and whether you can make progress or not often depends as much on what everyone else is doing as your own car. Maybe a 2WD car with decent tyres and decent traction control would cope OK. Especially with a shovel and some snow traction mats in the boot for those country lanes. Still seems like a bit of a backward step but probably does require a bit more thought.
The smooth power delivery and the quiet, effortless nature of the whole driving experience makes me drive slower and more calmly than I ever did in any ICE car.
It’s a more relaxed vibe and you don’t want to harsh your buzz with aggression.
Another interesting point. As I hurtle towards 60 myself I am finally starting to realise that I don't actually need my car to do the same. When I jump in my wife's little Ignis (or my son's little 1.2L Swift) I do find the lack of power strangely refreshing. No choice but to just take it easy. Give me a smooth quiet car with CarPlay and an awesome stereo and maybe I could live without bonkers power. Maybe 🙂
Give me a smooth quiet car with CarPlay and an awesome stereo and maybe I could live without bonkers power.
The point is, you don’t have to live without the bonkers power. You just don’t really feel the need to wield it because you don’t have anything to prove.
That's an interesting question. Which EV has the best audio system?
sounds more like a shortfall in your car than a general EV thing ! 🙂
Drive your car up to a ski resort in January, leave it outside then get back to us with how much range you have and the amount of regen braking on tap. It's quite handy having a warning about limited regen because when you're used to one-pedal driving it's a bit odd having to brake for bends.
err, no thanks, but thanks for the suggestion.
100kw motor is plenty for the 99.8% of driving that I do. Occasionally I'll use the normal driving mode and I might engage sport mode on special occasions.
Which EV has the best audio system?
The posh version of my povvy spec Genesis GV60 is supposed to have a top notch audio system with active noise cancellation.
The lack of engine noise and vibration makes even a bog standard setup sound better than it would in an ICE car.
My Q4 Quattro has 310hp, so fairly quick. I’ve always had fast ICE, previous car was a Cupra and an AMG Merc.
I’ve said this before, but I drove the ICE cars too quick. Long journeys I’d always be in the right lane waiting for people to move out of my way. The EV is just a totally different driving experience. Way less stressful, it’s almost serene. I arrive to work after my 30 mile commute less stressed. I actually enjoy the drive now. In fact, I look forward to my long trip I do every month.
For me personally, even though I know the power is there, I’m much more content to enjoy the relaxing nature of the drive. Honestly there is a fight between me and missus about who is going to drive as we both want to do it. She’s always asking if she can use the EV, she has an ICE still and much prefers the EV.
Even stopping for a coffee to charge up is fairly relaxing….as much as a motorway service station can be.
If my EV was the single motor 200hp version I honestly don’t think I would notice.
Best sound system, possibly: Renault Scenic techno option "iconic" which has Harman Kardon audio.
In answer to the best sound system in an ev question…..
My Q4 had the Audi Sound Cube……10 Sonos speakers. No idea how good it is compared to others, but I like it. I’m sure there are better or others similar…..
https://electrichasgoneaudi.net/models/q4-e-tron/technology/soundsystem/
Here’s a shedload of EV audio system reviews .
I’d imagine that it’s all totally subjective anyway and they all sound pretty good to the average ear
In answer to the best sound system in an ev question…..
clearly the one that makes vroom vroom noises in Sport mode 🙂
Thanks. I should have realised that there would be a youtube channel dedicated to reviewing car audio systems 🙂 To be honest, given the sort of punky stuff I listen to I probably shouldn't be worrying about it too much. I basically just want it to go loud without distorting any more than it did when it was recorded 🙂
I find the power/speed the complete opposite a lot of the time, no one expects the Smart to do 0-60 under 4 seconds and I find a lot of enjoyment surprising them.
Completely agree on the commuting comments though, podcast or audiobook on, dynamic cruise, occasionally grip the wheel harder when it complains at having to do all the work. Lovely and relaxing on what's normally a stressful activity.
13 speaker Beats stereo should also feature highly on the audio systems question, but not as good (loud) as I'd hoped it would be. Came with a blown speaker and all the settings turned up to max so suspect someone in the delivery chain also wanted to see how loud it would go.
I'm not bothered about a traffic lights grand prix (quite the opposite) but do like the instant and totally reliable go when feeding into traffic at roundabouts or pulling out into gaps in traffic on a major road.
You’d think so but that’s not been my experience.
The smooth power delivery and the quiet, effortless nature of the whole driving experience makes me drive slower and more calmly than I ever did in any ICE car
completely agree...
I've had a 200bhp civic type-r, a 180bhp skoda Octavia (remapped)..and both of those were fun to drive, but felt like they needed 'work'.
The Polestar has 476bhp (which, frankly, is bonkers!) but apart from the odd sprightly overtake, or 'rocket launch's from traffic lights (as my daughter calls it) it's the most gentle car to drive!
Also..has a Harmon Kardon sound system which is, quite frankly, fantastic!
DrP
Re lack of Regen braking at 100% charge - in my old ETron this was noticeable but it’s not in the i4 - either BMW allows a bit of extra charge into the battery for this or the friction brakes are blended in well and applied automatically (the brakes and Regen are all electronically controlled so it can do this).
Re speed - as others have said it’s nice to have a lot of acceleration available when needed or for occasional fun but 99% of the time I drive slower now than in previous ICE cars.
Re range and charging - it’s a non issue on the i4 due to its range. It’s got 74% charge right now and we’ve got to drive from Devon to Cambridge tomorrow - a 5+ hr drive which will have us stopping at least once possibly terce for comfort and toilet stops. The car however has just about got enough charge to do it without stopping. I’ll give it a quick 5-10 kw.hr squirt at a convenient point just for a bit of margin but that could be at any one of about 40+ rapid chargers along the way so a total non issue.
It seems to be that car manufacturers want you to treat an EV like a piece of consumer electronics. They are packed full of tech that the manufacturers have no intention of supporting beyond a few years.
Not here. Hyundai are still updating software on my discontinued car with actual significant improvements and features.
Also, my range estimate number is accurate (actually conservative) and it hardly deviates from the WTLP in winter whilst exceeding it in summer.
I think the poor range numbers in winter are perhaps clouded by short trips in slow traffic with the heating on high. This means that the heater is always pulling 1.5kW to get the car warm in a short period but you're doing very few miles against which to offset that. This causes the range figure on your dash to plummet. But that's not really important since by definition if you are doing short slow trips you don't need a lot of range. Get on the motorway for an hour and then heater consumption drops to 300W and you're doing 70mph the range will look far better.
Maybe a 2WD car with decent tyres and decent traction control would cope OK.
I live on a hillside, accessed by a dirt track in a forest in Scandinavia, i've got stuck once in 2 decades. Driving an assortment of 2wd cars.
Including a good number of single motor EVs. A few lowered Volvos (R-Design and Polestar engineered) plus some Porsches, Audi, Tesla, VW (EV and ICE).
Anything modern will do it, no problems.
Drive your car up to a ski resort in January, leave it outside then get back to us with how much range you have and the amount of regen braking on tap. It’s quite handy having a warning about limited regen because when you’re used to one-pedal driving it’s a bit odd having to brake for bends.
The regen issue (changing response to one pedal drive) is 100% a car problem, it's running old hardware/software. Brake blending is pretty common now. The range issue is just physics, so as expected. Should leave it plugged in, even a 13 Amp socket should have enough grunt to keep the battery charging (albeit slowly) and warm. It does when i bring EVs home and charge on the drive.
It seems to be that car manufacturers want you to treat an EV like a piece of consumer electronics. They are packed full of tech that the manufacturers have no intention of supporting beyond a few years.
The core systems used in EV are no different to motor/drive systems used in industry. I have a few companies that keep my shop floor running down to component level of repair. There's no reason why these companies couldn't repair EV drives and charging systems.
Grey/after market will spring up to repair/replace touchscreens etc. My 20year old Porsche LCD screen has a fading issue - replacements are available from eBay @ £50. The outdated entertainment system is replaceable either via an updated Porsche factory unit or aftermarket Android.
Fundamentally EV's are far simpler and easier to keep running long term than an ICE, I'm looking forward to £500 EV bangernomics where I don't have to worry about engines and gearboxes.
That’s an interesting question. Which EV has the best audio system?
My Tesla Model Y has the best sound system of any car I've owned.
I’ll ask the ski resort to equip every parking place with a 13A socket like they do in Finland. 😉
Hmmmmm, most of the resorts i've been to in the Alps have had outside sockets for either block heaters, or just because. Though i've not been to an Alpine resort since before the kids were born!
My Tesla Model Y has the best sound system of any car I’ve owned.
Didn't they do a sneaky downgrade on a good number of the sound system options on some Teslas last year?
Lower spec/smaller speakers and a reduction in number? (Even have a vague recollection of a cheaper amp?)
Believe the sound system is downgraded on the base Model Y RWD on US produced models only so far. European and UK cars come from Berlin and China. Ours (picked up in May) still has a subwoofer..
Currently plugged into the wall in the parking space at the ski chalet we're staying at in the Tarantaise area.
The drive down here from London was uneventful and long. Going back we'll spend a bit more time planning as a few of the Superchargers we used coming here were in random locations with no facilities, so we couldn't easily overlap charging the car with family refueling..
The bike on the roof reduced efficiency a fair bit. Sea Sucker rack was fine though..
I was told that the “Premium” audio in the Long Range variant is unbranded Bang and Olufson. Take that as you will.
Would have an ID 7 over a Model Y at this point. Better build quality, more space, longer range, not going to be keyed by everyone who walks past it, and no money going to Musk Enterprises. Especially not since they tacitly admitted on Twitter that they have no intention of bringing things like auto park to the UK due to the fact we’re RHD.
be keyed by everyone who walks past it,
Is this a thing with a Tesla?
I suspect the kind of people who object to Musk aren't the kind of people who'll key cars 🙂
The kind of people who would key cars are the type of people who would definitely key a Tesla though.
Tesla drivers get pigeonholed in much the same way as Audi drivers and white van men.
I'm looking forward to some cheap charging over the next few days thanks to the remnants of a hurricane and the possibility of some sunshine on some solar panels somewhere in the country. Agile tariff and a 3 pin plug.
Radio in the ioniq is ok. I'm no audio expert so not to fussy.
It seems to be that car manufacturers want you to treat an EV like a piece of consumer electronics. They are packed full of tech that the manufacturers have no intention of supporting beyond a few years.
There are legal requirements in most markets to support with service, spares and software for around a decade after end of production (think the shortest is 7 years, longest might be 12. I'd have to double check though.)
Some manufacturers get round this by calling a major facelift or new top hat a completely new model. But the authorities are getting wise to this. Will be an interesting thing to watch for, especially as everyone is moving to much more long lived platforms, with multiple tophats.
The thing you will probably lose sooner is feature upgrades and improvements. That might only be a couple of years after end of production, or you might need to pay for it, if the hardware is still capable of carrying the upgrades. But the update cycle for automotive OS is much longer than most consumer electronics and the backwards compatibility requirements much stronger.
Interesting times.
I suspect the kind of people who object to Musk aren’t the kind of people who’ll key cars 🙂
We've had our Tesla test cars keyed, on site.
I really wish Elon would settle TF down...
I'm just about ready to go electric on the family car after long agonising over it.
It needs to be new, as it's being purchased through business, and the model Y ticks pretty much every box.
Pleasingly, I found out last week that Tesla have a Highland popup test centre in Inverness with a Y and a 3 so I took the Y out for two hour blocks. It's really, really good.
I'll likely order a long range this week, but the behaviour of the CEO certainly gives pause.
He's just such a high profile bellend despite heading up some incredible people doing spectacular things.
There's a fair chance that the top brass in other large companies I've dealt with recently (RBS, Currys, VW, Amazon , Microsoft, FB, Tesco, Lidl....)are also throbbers, but conveniently keep it lower key. Musk is a level above in the dickhead race.
What a great car though!
bedmakerFull Member
I really wish Elon would settle TF down…I’m just about ready to go electric on the family car after long agonising over it.
It needs to be new, as it’s being purchased through business, and the model Y ticks pretty much every box.
Pleasingly, I found out last week that Tesla have a Highland popup test centre in Inverness with a Y and a 3 so I took the Y out for two hour blocks. It’s really, really good.
I’ll likely order a long range this week, but the behaviour of the CEO certainly gives pause.
He’s just such a high profile bellend despite heading up some incredible people doing spectacular things.
There’s a fair chance that the top brass in other large companies I’ve dealt with recently (RBS, Currys, VW, Amazon , Microsoft, FB, Tesco, Lidl….)are also throbbers, but conveniently keep it lower key. Musk is a level above in the dickhead race.
What a great car though!
Yeah hard to partition that sometimes. Especially when he's taking such a load of cash from Tesla.
Does the Y use indicator buttons instead of a stalk like the new 3? If so how did you find it? I think it would drive me crackers.