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Looking for a new vehicle on a 2nd hand budget and cars (and vans) still seem very expensive for what they are of all fuel flavours.
Then I came across 2nd hand the MG MG5. Pre facelift - a 2021 car with 25k miles on it can be had for £12,000. It's quite hard to find many cars if that age and milage for that little. Are they that bad? I can see from reviews that is mediocre in pretty much every way and ugly. And Chinese with a possible ethical dilemma there.
Anyone got one? Sorry - it might have been done to death in the bazillion pages above and I've not picked it up with the forum advanced search features.
Are they that bad?
I don’t think they’re bad. It’s just that they aren’t as good as the other options available when they were new.
According to some of my clients who had them as company cars, they’re perfectly adequate just a bit dull and old fashioned.
The issue is one of comparison rather than quality.
This is reflected in the used price though so probably a bargain
Anyone got one?
My dad owns one. Is pretty happy with it, I think. No problems doing longer trips, though I think the DC charging isn't as fast as he'd like. Limited customisation options - it's basically an ICE vehicle adapted to become an EV.
Think the biggest problem is that the paint is peeling off the bodywork and the dealer isn't interested in fixing.
Meant to be very reliable - Cleevely mobile EV servicing run a few kitted out as vans putting loads of miles on them (
) and there's hundreds of thousands of them used as taxis in China.
Bit dull but you can't complain for the money really.
Oh, thanks for that. I'm actually torn between a van and a car so interesting to see what they've done. Its for me commuting to work (50miles round trip, but Highlands so rural roads and some singletrack - and dark and cold for 3-4 months a year) but also paddling and biking. I paddle a surfski which is 6m long and white water so boats obviously will be on the roof. I suspect mountain bike might have to be too. But either whip the rear seats out or just get them as flat as possible and make an internal tarp material liner would probably do it.
The only problem with that is roof load, if it's the higher spec with the rails then the earlier UK cars initially claimed 50kg, then no roof load, then finally 35kg. https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/7-months-after-going-on-sale-mg-can-finally-say-whether-owners-of-its-electric-car-can-use-the-roof-rails-aDorC5p4EiJj
If it's one without the rails then you can get regular clamp/hook-on bars that take 75kg, or the later cars (long range then the facelift) did come with rails that do 75kg.
I paddle a surfski which is 6m long and white water so boats obviously will be on the roof. I suspect mountain bike might have to be too.
one thing to bear in mind is that stuff on the roof really eats up the range, on any EV.
Then I came across 2nd hand the MG MG5. Pre facelift – a 2021 car with 25k miles on it can be had for £12,000. It’s quite hard to find many cars if that age and milage for that little. Are they that bad? I can see from reviews that is mediocre in pretty much every way and ugly. And Chinese with a possible ethical dilemma there.
Anyone got one? Sorry – it might have been done to death in the bazillion pages above and I’ve not picked it up with the forum advanced search features.
My mate has one - seems fine, they're happy. I have an MG ZS which is their mini SUV as a company car. Again pretty good - it's a bit soulless I suppose, but for a local run around for two kids it's perfect.
Yes, the roof load is a concern. As much the fixings left on all the time as when it's being carried. Both the range reduction and the whistling noises which must be much more obvious in an EV. I could hardly that when carrying but a pain when just commuting with empty bike mounts and kayak cradles. The surfski is actually only 16kg in weight despite its length although the length puts quite bit of leverage on the bars. You'd want to be able to carry 2 WW boats for shuttles (same with the surfski) which would get a bit close to the load limit.
Also a touch worried about battery's capability to handle 24/7 below zero temperatures.....but the Norwegians seems to love an EV so it must be well possible.
It's all on hold after a chat with Octopus this morning. Currently the smart meter is not reliable enough in terms of signal for an EV leccy contract so they'll need to investigate and apply for a booster and maybe an ariel....so I'll need to sit on the idea for a little while.
Edited to add. The prefacelift is not rated for a tow bar either.
Thanks Ewan. And no one looks at the brand and thinks a bit dodge from an ethics perspective? Currently (aside from the money which makes it completely theoretical anyway) I don't think I could be driving around in a Tesla.....
one thing to bear in mind is that stuff on the roof really eats up the range, on any EV.
Any idea in % terms what the effect of 2 sea kayaks at say 50 to 60mph would be? I'm pondering getting an EV as my next vehicle. Most of the miles I do are at weekends with 1 or 2 kayaks on the roof and its very rare to see a charger at any of the car parks. Even if there were I probably wouldn't be particularly popular plugging in and then disappearing out to sea for 3 to 4 hrs. On that basis would be looking for something that could do a ~ 170 miles in the winter with 2 kayaks.
re range with roof bars and bikes - my EV dropped to 2.5 miles per Kw (30%) on a mainly motorway trip to the Lakes earlier this summer. Changes to the balance of needing to recharge from matching the natural need to stop after 3-4hrs with the family to being just slightly too frequent.
I had a look at the ethics of buying EVs made in different countries and ended up putting all the Chinesse brands in last place. Musk may be a dick but I don't see how you can reasonanly say a made in Berlin Tesla is ethically worse than any vehicle made In China.
I favour made in France/UK because I'm a national and dependant on the economic success of those countries. Then Europe, then USA, then Asia and last of all China. I'd rather see Musk make money than Xi.
Most Teslas on UK roads were made in China. Polestars and the electric Volvos are made in China. BMW iX3 is made in China. The new electric Smarts are made in China. There's a load more brands like BYD, GWM and others here or coming, China makes a lot of cars in the European market now.
If you want to support local manufacturing then buy a Leaf, all the European ones since 2013 are made in Sunderland.
Any idea in % terms what the effect of 2 sea kayaks at say 50 to 60mph would be?
Surely it'll be very similar to the %age drop in fuel efficiency of a similarly aero slippy petrol or diesel car. i.e. if your (thinking about the MG5) Passat diesel estate looses about 5% efficiency (say 50mpg to 47.5mpg) the EV would be about the same but measured in different units....
Personally I drive a bit slower with boats on the roof because of the stresses it putting on the boats and the roof which must compensate for it a little bit.
If you want to support local manufacturing then buy a Leaf, all the European ones since 2013 are made in Sunderland.
No one should buy a new Leaf because it uses the CHAdeMO charging standard, how they still manufacture and sell that car in Europe where most new charging locations are CCS only is beyond me.
Surely it’ll be very similar to the %age drop in fuel efficiency of a similarly aero slippy petrol or diesel car
That was sort of my assumption as well but at odds with
range with roof bars and bikes – my EV dropped to 2.5 miles per Kw (30%) on a mainly motorway trip
Maybe bikes are significantly worse than kayaks for increasing drag.
I would be changing from a T5 California (ie aerodynamics of a large brick). With that my consumption is about a 6% increase with kayaks on the roof, generally set the cruise control at 65mph on the motorway.
It was another poster looking at the MG. On my possible radar at the moment are things like the VW ID4, Skoda Enyak, Kia Nero and Renault Scenic. At a year or so old. Like the idea of the id Buzz but think I might struggle with range if it is nearer the 30% hit on range.
The problem with roof loads in EVs is that aerodynamic drag at motorway speeds is a rather higher proportion of losses for EVs than it is for ICEs. It's why the speed/efficiency curves are so different. So increasing the aero drag has a more noticeable impact on EVs than ICEs. Plus of course range is rarely a concern for ICE so people just don't think about it much.
We lost quite a chunk of range on our EV with either a vertical tandem (last year) or a roof box plus towbar rack with 2 bikes (this year) on long holiday trips. Still manageable but required a bit of calculation of range and charging points when trying to minimise the punitive commercial charges.
I wonder if you EVists would be prepared to indulge in a bit of crystal ball gazing for me?
I've always been a bit EV-curious. I bought my last car just over six years ago and always assumed that would be the last ICE car I bought. But I keep finding myself swithering.
I am in the fortunate position of being able to install a charger at home if I want and I drive over 20k miles a year, so the running cost savings at least could be significant. Also, from a position of almost total ignorance, I'm not as bothered about range as most people seem to be. Although I drive a lot of miles it is very rare that I actually do more than 150 miles in a day. Rare enough that I could probably justify just hiring an ICE car for the journey if it really was an issue. I probably wouldn't, but I could. I also note that the number of public chargers seems to be increasing at something like 40% a year, so it really shouldn't be an issue before too long.
No, what puts me off is questions over the longevity of the car. Not so much the battery. I know they last for ages, still have value even when the performance drops below what you would want for a car and I'm pretty sure that people will pop up who are able to refurbish them by the time it becomes an issue. It's more the rest of the car that bothers me.
If I buy an ICE car I can be confident that in 20+ years there will still be people who can fix it. OK there may be questions around whether it is economically viable, but you can almost always fix an ICE car if you really want to. My first car was a Mk1 escort, which was already an old car when I bought it as a teenager in 1981. But at the weekend I saw a whole line of them driving along some local roads. Not mine, I put that one into a ditch hard enough that it wasn't going to recover, but you get my point.
It seems to be that car manufacturers want you to treat an EV like a piece of consumer electronics. They are packed full of tech that the manufacturers have no intention of supporting beyond a few years. Then what?
In theory an EV is a fairly simple thing. Battery, motor(s), standard brake/suspension bits, a bunch of fairly standard sensors and the equivalent of an iPad to run the whole thing. So it's possible that independent service centres will pop up that can fix (and even upgrade) older EVs. But I can also see manufacturers keeping their IP very close to their chest, so this isn't guaranteed.
So TLDR: do you think that in 10, 20 or 30 years there will be people who will be able to fix/upgrade a current generation EV or will they all be obsolete and consigned to the scrap heap by then?
I think that in 20 years time ICEs and EVs will have similar issues with electronics, hardware and software because they are both dependant on it. Infact the EV is much simpler with fewer sensors and electro-mecanical parts to fail.
The most common older EVs are the Model S and Zoe. If you browse the small ads you'll find they are both still supported by the manufacturers. Here in France some of the very oldest get advertised with new batteries - about 12 000e for an 85kWh Tesla and half that for a 40kWh Zoe according to the bills presented in the ads.
Independant any brand EV specialists are appearing in France. Where there's money to be made people will get involved. I'm confident.
@roverpig looks like you have the perfect use case for an EV. Like Edukator said current ICE vehicles will have the same issues with technology as EVs if not more so and here I'm thinking of hybrids. I'll add the Nissan Leaf to the list of older EVs still getting support and there are also specialists out there that can swap faulty battery modules or even replace batteries.
Thanks both. That’s a good point. Maybe this isn’t an EV thing at all. It’s just modern cars getting so complicated that they may be hard to maintain long term. Or is it just me getting old ?
I still think that if I rock up to my local independent garage with any ICE car they will have a go at fixing it but if I turn up with an EV probably not. That’s probably going to change (for both ICE and EVs) though. Maybe not for the better but it’s probably not really a valid argument against EVs.
Interesting post. I tend to run 4-5 year old cars for 4-6 years. I rack up 15-20,000 miles a year. I do plenty of 150-250 mile days.
I'd have no qualms about getting an EV based on that.
The ONLY two reasons I just bought another diesel (full of electrical wizardry and emissions mitigating complicated bits to go wrong) are
1) because of a small number of places I go to with trailers for sailing events that means charging would be a colossal pain in the backside.
2) for my budget every single family trip away would have involved a range sucking roof box with resultant extra public charging costs because we couldn't afford a massive SUV EV where the boot is big enough to split it for a large dog and a weekend of luggage.
Interestingly I think I might already have spotted my next car and it's the new VW EV estate (I forget the model number) that's about to go on sale. 5 years from now that'll be on my list and in my age / mileage sweet spot and I'll hopefully be doing less tramping around to youth sailing events by then.
MG are now saying their traction batteries are warrantied for 10 years in Thailand therefore they must expect them to last a lot longer than that. Lets see if this is rolled out world wide.
Oh, and I've just discovered due to my rural scottish location I'm eligible for grants of £400 off the cost of a charger at home and a 6yr 100% interest free loan up to £25K on a used EV. That might swing it!
Oh, and I’ve just discovered due to my rural scottish location I’m eligible for grants of £400 off the cost of a charger at home
Having just come back from holiday on the coast of Argyll and seen quite a few properties with EVs and home chargers I realised EV is a great option in places like this where the nearest petrol station could be 20 miles away and would require a special trip to fill up vs always having a full battery in the morning.
Anyone running an MG4 for V2L and via solar? Am with the family in Oz and they're considering this route.
If you want to look at long term maintenance then there isn't so much difference modern ICE and EV's. Stuff like brakes, suspension are the same. I've owned an EV long enough to not be very worried about battery degradation, and I don't miss oil changes, kaput clutches, broken gearboxes, cam chain changes and rattles etc etc.
The bit I don't like is incar electronics, control panels, etc etc etc. But you'll have just the same in a modern ICE car.
However.... You're likely to get the discs and pads lasting waaaaay longer on an EV, due to Regen braking.
I don't think the mechanical brakes have been used on the polestar for months!
DrP
Agreed - does your car ever not do the regen braking thing though when the battery is at 100% charge? It’s supposedly to prevent overcharging but is rather scary when unexpected.
Probably... But I only ever charge (bar the odd long journey) to 90%... Plus..it's a hill from my door, so I typically lose a few % before I'd need to brake anyway!
DrP
Picked up our 2022 Zoe today - first EV for us. Charging point installed tomorrow. Time to jump in the deep end...
@edukator. reading your post above, since we have the 'uprated' socketry on our Zoe (we were given a choice of "rapid charge" enabled or not) we can access the Tesla charging network?
Yes, any car with a CCS socket can use the open superchargers, download the app, enter your details and a card. The superchargers that are open to all cars will show up in red. When you arrive at the supercharger select the site in the app, plug in the car before you select the charger number then launch the charge. In the UK we used the superchargers in Bristol Park way, Solihull sevice center and Cambridge.
Have fun with the little car. It'll probably need new tyres before long because the OEMs don't last long - try high-load rated crossclimate+ ; they last longer, grip better on anything other than a perfectly dry hot road and make negligible difference to the range.
Up to 45,000 miles on CrossClimate 2 tyres on a Model 3 LR and it’s still not below 4mm either end. Doing my head in - need to get below 2mm in the next three weeks and despite flooring it away from the lights on every opportunity they’re refusing to wear out.
Agreed – does your car ever not do the regen braking thing though when the battery is at 100% charge? It’s supposedly to prevent overcharging but is rather scary when unexpected.
Shouldn't ever do that in a Volvo or Polestar unless you're still on software from the first ~6 months of production.
I don’t think the mechanical brakes have been used on the polestar for months!
Just look, you'll be able to tell. If they are shiny, they've been used and you didn't notice. They did a good job on the calibration...
Up to 45,000 miles on CrossClimate 2 tyres on a Model 3 LR and it’s still not below 4mm either end
I replaced the rear original Hankook S1 Evo3's on my i4 last week, with 11500 miles use. They were down to the bare minimum at which Tusker replaced like for like. I'm glad tyres are included in the salary sacrifice lease deal.. !
convertFull Member
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It’s all on hold after a chat with Octopus this morning. Currently the smart meter is not reliable enough in terms of signal for an EV leccy contract so they’ll need to investigate and apply for a booster and maybe an ariel….so I’ll need to sit on the idea for a little while.
I have 't had the patience to get through to chat with Octopus yet, but I think we have the same issue, our logs of usage have gaps presably indicating poor signal. I haven't had a reply to my email yet.
Interesting that aerials are available, I will have another go at talking to them. In the meantime we will just go on to the basic British Gas ev tariff which gives 5 hours of cheapish electricity overnight. Not sure how smart a meter that needs, but if there is an issue maybe they will sort it...
Eta yes we are joining the ev revolution and getting a 2021 Zoe from our local Renault dealer to replace our 17 year old Fabia. Getting a charging point installed with the Ohme home pro unit.
I mentioned earlier that I thought the obsession with range was overblown and would generally stick to that, but having looked in a bit more detail I think I'm starting to understand why 🙂
I had a look at the Smart #1 Brabus edition (because I'm basically a child and we've driven AWD cars for donkeys years). WLTP range 249 miles. That should be enough to cover all of my needs. What's all the fuss about?
So I had a look on ev-database.org No idea how accurate they are. They quote "real world" ranges for cars that aren't released yet, which is a bit of a worry, but at least they try to give realistic figures. They reckon the "real range" is more like 200 miles. Not so good, but then it gets much worse.
My most "challenging" journey would be the annual Christmas trip from Aberdeenshire to East Anglia. Just over 500 miles, most of which is dual carriageway or motorway and of course it's cold in December. So for that journey I should look at the "Highway-Cold Weather" range and that's only 140 miles. Ouch! Of course you wouldn't really want to drop much below 10% to avoid anxiety and once it reaches 80% the charging seems to slow to a trickle. So really you need to look at 70% of that for the distance between charges, which is only 100 miles. That would get pretty annoying.
For comparison my petrol (AWD) car can easily go 300 miles between refuel stops all year round. That's more than I need, but means that the car is hardly ever the reason why I stop on a long journey. In practice 200 miles would probably be fine, but 100 is pretty woeful. OK, I could just choose a more sensible car, but I'm far too old to start getting sensible now 🙂
So for that journey I should look at the “Highway-Cold Weather” range and that’s only 140 miles.
That’s a worst case assuming -10°c , constant heating and a constant 70mph.
Chances of it being that cold for the entire journey are pretty low i’d have thought.
The difference in efficiency by going at 60mph is also much larger than you’d imagine.
Charging stops are also not the hassle everyone assumes them to be. Just have a coffee and a pee and a stretch of your legs. Just like you’d do in an ICE car after driving a couple of hours.
I would make that journey, in that car, without stressing about it.
I should look at the “Highway-Cold Weather” range and that’s only 140 miles. Ouch!
EVDB highway cold range is very much a worst case scenario , in the coldest of temperatures , in the uk its unlikely to be that cold for very long, butother countries would easily be that cold frequently , so most of the time even in the coldest of winter in the uk you wont get range that low , but it is a possibility.
Our car has a wltp range of 250 miles , evdb states a cold highway range of 165 miles, and a warm highway range of 210 miles. In reality in winter the range drops to about 180-190 miles , in summer its about 210-220 miles.
Good point both. Thanks. I think what shocked me was the difference between the quoted (WLTP) range of 250 miles and the worst case scenario of having to stop to recharge every 100 miles. As you say it probably wouldn't be that bad in practice and if it's just me in the car I don't really mind having a few more stops. More of a pain if we've got the whole family in the car and are trying to get the journey done as quickly as possible though.
I think this is one of the issues with EVs (and cars in general really). We tend to buy cars based on the most challenging scenario we might face rather than day to day. For every day use (if you can charge at home) an EV (even with a fairly low range) should be fine. Cheaper to run than an ICE car and you probably wouldn't need to visit a garage/charger for months on end. But we get put off by the fact that it would be a pain for that one journey we do where an ICE car is better.
My most “challenging” journey would be the annual Christmas trip from Aberdeenshire to East Anglia. Just over 500 miles, most of which is dual carriageway or motorway and of course it’s cold in December. So for that journey I should look at the “Highway-Cold Weather” range and that’s only 140 miles. Ouch! Of course you wouldn’t really want to drop much below 10% to avoid anxiety and once it reaches 80% the charging seems to slow to a trickle. So really you need to look at 70% of that for the distance between charges, which is only 100 miles. That would get pretty annoying.
For comparison my petrol (AWD) car can easily go 300 miles between refuel stops all year round. That’s more than I need, but means that the car is hardly ever the reason why I stop on a long journey. In practice 200 miles would probably be fine, but 100 is pretty woeful. OK, I could just choose a more sensible car, but I’m far too old to start getting sensible now 🙂
Only 300 miles! My diesel will do 700 miles on a tank - for that one trip I've done in 5 years when I went to the Home Counties & back...
C'mon, you're choosing a car based on a once a year event, that's like only buying a house big enough to cover for the annual in-laws visit.
Range anxiety is real…but only for people who have never actually driven a long journey in an EV.
Charger availability anxiety on those notoriously busy travel days like Christmas Eve or hot bank holidays is real though but it’s getting better every day.
Yes, as I said further up the thread, I'm not actually opposed to just renting an ICE car for the odd trip where it would be the better option. It's not as though you save much in "fuel" given the cost of public fast chargers. And, to be honest, the wife and kids took the train last time we went south anyway and I just plodded down in the car with the dogs so we had something to use while we were down there. I don't think it helps the sales of EVs that the WLTP range is so far away from what people report in practice though.
I had a look at the Smart #1 Brabus edition (because I’m basically a child and we’ve driven AWD cars for donkeys years). WLTP range 249 miles. That should be enough to cover all of my needs. What’s all the fuss about?
So I had a look on ev-database.org No idea how accurate they are. They quote “real world” ranges for cars that aren’t released yet, which is a bit of a worry, but at least they try to give realistic figures. They reckon the “real range” is more like 200 miles. Not so good, but then it gets much worse.
My most “challenging” journey would be the annual Christmas trip from Aberdeenshire to East Anglia. Just over 500 miles, most of which is dual carriageway or motorway and of course it’s cold in December. So for that journey I should look at the “Highway-Cold Weather” range and that’s only 140 miles. Ouch! Of course you wouldn’t really want to drop much below 10% to avoid anxiety and once it reaches 80% the charging seems to slow to a trickle. So really you need to look at 70% of that for the distance between charges, which is only 100 miles. That would get pretty annoying.
I've got one of those, never seen another out in the wild! Did Bathgate to Blackpool in February or March, cold rainy day. Had only just got it so had a huge amount of range anxiety, stopped once on the way down for a quick lunch break length charge, very slow charge for an hour in Blackpool and a couple of coffee break charge stops on the way home. Didn't need the last one but it's a decent A road last section and a charge meant I could stick it in Brabus mode. Realistically even on the coldest of days I'd be pretty confident on 150+ miles comfortable range, still not the best but not as bad as your calculations.
First thought was you're probably being a bit negative on the range but re-reading it you're probably not far off in terms of leaving a bit of safety and getting a quick charge, doubt it would be quite as bad as 100 miles but probably a sensible worst case to plan to.
It's an absolute riot to drive, there is zero wheel spin it just launches and no one knows what they are so never expects it to go like that.
Mine very rarely goes long distances so haven't tested it in the warmer weather but it shows about 190 miles from 90% and it seems to be pretty realistic.